Talk:Palmair

Airline ?

Note that Palmair is not an airline and is a tour operator and unless users provide evidence that it is a licenced airline with an air operators certificate and operating licence from the CAA. All the references support that it is a tour operator, including recently added ones. As a tour operator it sells flights only on licenced carriers, the fact it sells flights is not evidence that it is an airline, it is just like all the other high street and internet tour operators. Unless reliable evidence is provided that it has applied for the appropriate licences I will revert the recent changes to the article. Thank you. MilborneOne (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Go to livery section, reference from BBC that it is a seperate airline. Regards, Zaps93 (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

You are getting marketing mixed up with fact, a number of tour operators have aircraft painted in their colour (like Travel City Direct wasnt an airline but had a number of aircraft painted in their colours.) MilborneOne (talk) 17:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe so, the aircraft is yes, on long-term lease to Palmair, they have their own cabin crew/pilots, tickets sold under 'Palmair'. Since re-starting operations in May, the airline has completely begun new scheduled services operating under the same name Palmair. Regards. Zaps93 (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

So you have a link to their operating licence and air operators certificate (both needed before you can operate as an airline) ? MilborneOne (talk) 17:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

They're using Astraeus' as they using their aircraft. I'm only trying to show 'Palmair' is infact an airline operating under Astraeus. Zaps93 (talk) 17:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Palmair sounds similar to US carriers like Direct Air and the defunct Western (airline), in which one company (in this case, Palmair) determines the destinations and schedule and markets the service, contracting with another carrier (in this case, Astraeus) to actually operate the flights on its behalf. I have no problem with using things like the Airline infobox on the article, as long as the text of the article makes clear who operates the flights (note that the Direct Air article, for example, notes that Virgin America and USA Jet currently operate the flights, and that the Western article's infobox includes the codes and callsign of Xtra Airways, the company that operated their flights). -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 17:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Hawaiian717, that's what I'm trying to get at. Maybe if we put operating under 'Astraeus'? or something? Best Regards, Zaps93 (talk) 17:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

But it is still a licenced tour operator it just charters the whole aircraft (for three years!) and provides the cabin crew (not the flight crew) it operates as an Astreus flight with Astreus flight crew, Astreus callsign, Astreus flight number and using Astreus licenses. Bath Travel is a well respected travel operator in the south of England and should not really be misrepresented or should the article act like its marketing department. The article should make the facts (from reliable references) clear, I have no problem with describing it as a tour operator that sells holidays and seats on an Astreus 737 operated on its behalf, still doesnt make it an airline. MilborneOne (talk) 17:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It operating an aircraft in it's livery with their own cabin crew and flights are only sold on Palmair's website. It's an airline but operated completely by Astraeus, yes it is a tour operator and has been for the past few years, but since it rebegun operating in May '09, they operate schedule flights too. So yes it is an airline but with Astraeus licence. It's not being misrepresented but infact being shown in the 2 ways the company operates, just not your favoured 'charter'. I would agree with you before the re-styling of the airline. Wiki ment to give true facts? If so, Palmair is an airline, just re-arrange the page to show it operated by Astraeus, but to keep airline infobox and other information I have added as they are all supported by references. Thanks. Zaps93 (talk) 18:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I will only repeat myself one more time - Bath Travel sells holidays and seat only flights under the marketing name Palmair. It contracts Astreus to operate an aircraft on its behalf for three years and for it to be painted in a Palmair livery, Bath Travel will provide the cabin crew and sell all the seats (either as part of their holidays packages or on a seat only basis). The aircraft is legally operated as an Astreus flight (flight crew, licences, callsign, flight number and everything other than cabin crew, catering and ground handling). Looks like a standard whole aircraft charter operation no different than any other tour operator that contracts an airline for its use. The fact the BBC and others describe it as an airline is all part of the way Palmair market themselves. And as this article has now become a supporter of their marketing department I will get my coat. MilborneOne (talk) 18:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

An airline, by definition, must hold an Air Operators Certificate. Palmair does not, because as already mentioned it is a tour operator, not an airline. As previously mentioned, Travel City Direct was a similar example. The article needs to make the clear distiction that Palmair is a tour operator, selling flights and holidays on flights operated by Astraeus. The introductory text of the aritcle Palmair is a British airline is simply not factual and must be changed. SempreVolando (talk) 13:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

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