Talk:Owamni

Tags

@The Banner: Can you please identify the non-neutral text and/or the weasel words? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:16, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Seconding Another Believer. What's the problem here, The Banner? I understand you're from Ireland and that you specialize in Michelin stars; does that mean you not recognize the James Beard awards as notable? As of 2019, Michelin doesn't rate Minneapolis restaurants. A James Beard is notable, and this chef, Sean Sherman has won three of them, all national not regional.

• Regarding notability: WP:ORGCRIT is already satisfied, and I've added more sources below.
• POV and Weasel words? The article is plain facts.

I'll have to remove the flags unless you can provide specifics. Kindly ping me as I am working on Wikipedia elsewhere. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:46, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Weasel word: "a decolonized menu". My doubt about the notability is caused by the fact that you have two sources about the opening and three sources about a newcomer award. Nothing more. So the article fails to prove its notability. The Banner talk 08:15, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: I support tag removal if you're comfortable. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:22, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, let's give The Banner the rest of the day to state his specific criticisms. All I'm able to find is a long list of Stubs. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Aha, you prefer bashing me over looking at the article itself. The Banner talk 18:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

@The Banner: you were shown extra courtesy here and at Minneapolis talk because you are a member of WikiProject Food and Drink. To repeat, I am looking for an article that you approve of. All I found is a list of Stubs. Nobody is bashing you. Can you please point to an example of what you're talking about? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

My friend, you are looking at what I (as in the editor) did in the past. You are not judging the present article. The Banner talk 19:13, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid without any example being provided that the tags should come off, Another Believer. It is nonsensical to aspire to something undefined. Of course I'm still willing to work with you, The Banner, but will need to see a model. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Another idea. A restaurant article written by someone else that you think is good! -SusanLesch (talk) 20:05, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I looked through the highest ratings in the WikiProject list and found mostly articles about carrots and avocados and one about Burger King. Maybe you're working in a rarified space, The Banner. I'll try to learn from what you've done. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I think you are just looking for excuses to remove the tags instead of solving the issues. The Banner talk 11:50, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

@The Banner Can you please identify any non-neutral text or remove the tag? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Decolonized menu. The Banner talk 20:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Can you please remove the non-neutral text from the article then remove the tag? Why are you making this so difficult? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:46, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

No, as your companion is now adding loads of irrelevant or spammy info to the article. I have no doubt that removing that will upset you both. The Banner talk 22:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Then please identify specifically which text is problematic. All you're doing now is adding a tag then refusing to remove when asked for justification. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Okay, parts that can be removed as being irrelevant:

• Architects Hammel, Green and Abrahamson built Owamni on the ruins of the Columbia Mill, in the space occupied from 1967 to 1990 by Minnesota's first Japanese restaurant, Fuji Ya.[4] Outside around the restaurant, 50 native species are planted, among them wild ginger, chokeberry, sumac, white cedar, lady fern, white pine, and purple prairie clover.[4]
• In 2014, Sherman opened The Sioux Chef, a for-profit entity, to cater food, educate the public, and to run the Tatanka Truck food truck.[5] Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.[6] In 2016, the two submitted a restaurant proposal to the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board.[4] Around 2017, Sherman and Thompson started to build Owamni and founded the non-profit NATIFS (North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems).[5][7] In 2020, their NATIFS Indigenous Food Lab opened in the Midtown Global Market,[8] where a community fund allows them to give a bowl of pozole or chili and a cup of tea to any person who asks.[9]

Both parts say absolutely nothing about the restaurant. The Banner talk 22:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

You're talking about relevance and I'm asking about neutrality. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Shall I add a tag for advertising? Or shall I just remove everything what is irrelevant and spammy? The Banner talk 23:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

You're not identifying non-neutral text, so I am going to remove the one tag. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

@The Banner: Since "decolonized menu" no longer links to Decolonization, do you still think the weasel tag is needed? If so, please identify a specific problem or remove the tag. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think it was. But at your request I have removed that weasel word, the tag and the spammy irrelevant information. The Banner talk 08:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I've removed the notability tag, too. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:59, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I see The Banner has reverted. I disagree but I'm not going to edit war over this. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@The Banner: Per WP:AUD and WP:THREE, we now have two national sources and one international: La Liste, The New York Times, and the James Beard Foundation. I believe that's all it takes to establish notability. Would you please remove your tags? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

The second is just an essay, no policy or guideline. Per WP:AUD: Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. Note hereby strong indication what is something else then proof. The Banner talk 20:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@The Banner: Agreed about the essay but in WP:AUD you cut off the conclusion. And that's not fair. WP:AUD concludes, "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." This article more than meets notability guidelines. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, that is not how I read it. Especially as the same page states here at Examples of trivial coverage: listing of award recipients. The Banner talk 21:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC) And yes, not even a star in the Michelin Guide makes a restaurant notable. What makes it notable is the significant coverage in other reliable, independent, in-depth sources.

@The Banner: How about I use one of Ireland's Michelin restaurants as a model? Which one do you suggest? Is long-form video from national news magazines acceptable? You must see I'm trying here, and we're not short of sources. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

You are really fascinated by what I have written in the past. And sorry, I am not writing your articles or assisting with that. I just apply my tough, critical look. The Banner talk 22:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: Please assume good faith. Digging for mud in an editors past and throwing it at them because they disagree with you is inappropriate. This is not the first time I have had to remind you to respect other editors. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: I don't know what you are talking about, or why you are following me around. I'm doing just fine, thank you. The Banner is teaching me a lot here. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Your post just closed off my work for the day. No thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC) P.S. @Magnolia677: In the future, would you please post to my talk page instead of interrupting conversations? No harm done. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

@The Banner: I'll be back soon to complete the section on the unique menu. I hope you'll remove anything you don't like and the tags too when the time comes. I added a little bit back for context. Thank you, it's coming along. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

There is no need to ping me each and every time. I have this page on my watchlist.

The use of restaurant reviews as sources is frowned upon. Avoid them when possible. Reason for that is that it makes it too easy to stray into advertising. The Banner talk 15:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

More sources

Here are a few more mentions: BBC, PBS Newshour, Le Monde, The New York Times, La Liste, New Yorker, NBC News. @Another Believer: if you can't use these, I would be happy to try to help expand this article but just not now; my time is booked for Minneapolis through January, conceivably until March. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The article needs reliable, independent, in-depth sources. Passing mentions are not suitable. This article needs a lot of work. The Banner talk 08:24, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Did you look? These are not passing mentions. Most are feature articles, some are long form videos. For example, The New Yorker published "How Owamni Became the Best New Restaurant in the United States". @The Banner: Would you please give an example of an article you like or wrote? One you feel satisfies all your criteria. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Did you look at the present sourcing? The Banner talk 19:14, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Currently we have Pioneer Press, KARE-11 TV, Minnesota Public Radio, Vox Media, and WCCO-TV (CBS). Every single one is a reliable source per WP:RS. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Two sources are about the opening, the sources about a price they have won. Is that all info that is available? The Banner talk 19:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

And you should judge (and when possible improve) the present article. Not focus on what I wrote in the past. Most of my articles are short by choice as I want to avoid what I see as spamming (like menus, qotes from reviewers etc.). You have to accept that, not bash it. The Banner talk 19:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

That's fair enough, The Banner. And then you should learn to accept that a "decolonized menu" is a legitimate accomplishment. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:39, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I have no problem with decolonized menu but it is now an WP:EASTEREGG/weasel word, leading you to Decolonization what has nothing to do with a cuisine. The Banner talk 20:17, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I have some questions about this section: The restaurant is co-owned by Dana Thompson and Sean Sherman, who is also the head chef. As of 2015, Thompson owns 40 percent of the Sioux Chef and half its governance.

1. According to the first sentence Sherman is still head chef, something that is denied by the source of the second sentence.
2. What is the relevance of an even "as of 2015" for a restaurant opened in 2021? What is the relevance of "Sioux Chief" anyway? Parent company? Never explained in the article.

Hope this can be fixed. The Banner talk 09:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Of course it can be fixed. I can only work part-time on this. (I wish you would help. Your photo suggestion on Minneapolis was very helpful, thank you.) -SusanLesch (talk) 18:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

And what is the relevance of this whole story in the section Business? As of now, it does not say anything about the restaurant itself. The Banner talk 21:36, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

What are "zero-proof cocktails"? The Banner talk 17:11, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Cocktails without alcohol. Wikipedia files them under mocktails (and that article mentions zero-proof). -SusanLesch (talk) 17:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that you add alcohol-free to the description. "zero-proof" is typical American lingo, not used in - for example - Europe. The Banner talk 18:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Done. Thank you for the suggestion. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:58, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

BIPOC?? What is that?

And is it possible to reduce the menu-section? It is now an advertisement for the menu. Please halve it and summarize it. A short list of the main native foods is sufficient. The Banner talk 21:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

BIPOC ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:56, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I spelled out BIPOC and trimmed the menu back. I added one small section. How does the article look? -SusanLesch (talk) 23:36, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I think that is/was another example of American lingo. I will take a better look at it tomorrow, as it is now late at night for me. The Banner talk 23:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Future GA

@Another Believer: this article is potentially a GA. I understand that The Banner doesn't like my style, but we started with a Stub. Can you bear with me while I build this up a little more? A good first step would be DYK. If you disagree, I will happily remove everything I added. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Be bold and feel free to continue expanding the article as you see fit! I have no problem with The Banner identifying content concerns but I do not think the tags are necessary. I hope other editors will weigh in as well. I'd like to help out more here but I'm having to follow quite a few discussions and work on a bunch of other restaurant articles because of some recent deletion nominations. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks and wishing you best of luck. I'm going to hold off for now using The Banner's articles as a model. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Ready all? I will nominate this for GA when it's stable. We're going to have to skip DYK. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

That seems a bit optimistic... The Banner talk 00:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

A bit. Good article criteria seem to be met except the lead and the stability requirement. Working on the lead now. By the way, we have more photos if we request them from User:Bobak, just no place to put them (for example, there's an elk arepa).-SusanLesch (talk) 17:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

To my opinion, it fails criterion 3b. The Banner talk 18:25, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Can you elaborate? Criterion 3b is about article size—WP:TOOBIG doesn't apply; this one is less than 1000 words. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

3b: it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). Note the unnecessary detail. The Banner talk 00:05, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I am sorry to tell you this but it's really wasteful of my time to read all this muck when it does not apply. I'll have to read it all over again in another context. At the front Help screen I tried a search for "unnecessary detail." The first two pages seem to be direct copies of the GA criterion, "stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)." There we find two links to learn more: "Focused on the topic" is linked to article size (this Owamni article is probably too small, not too big, at < 1Kb). "Unnecessary detail" is unlinked but parentheses are provided linking to summary style, where WP:AVOIDSPLIT cautions that "if only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate article..." So I read that that trimming this more risks deletion. After researching this, I have trouble understanding what you talking about.

Can you point out what you think is unnecessary? -SusanLesch (talk) 21:17, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

After your rant, I am giving up: figure it out yourself. I have the feeling that I am taking to a marketeer who has no clue that this is an encyclopedia. Please read WP:CIR. The Banner talk 00:17, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I recently learned at WP:WL that "without even getting into secondary sets of rules there are about 73 official policy pages and about 280 official guideline pages" on Wikipedia, so please forgive me when answers aren't jumping off the page. I'll continue to study CIR. In the list of the world's best 50, 4 restaurants are over Start class. That's a start. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:40, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

@Another Believer: Looking quickly at these four restaurants, I see no reason to wait. Do you have problems with me nominating this for GA? It could take many months (the backlog goes back to July). -SusanLesch (talk) 18:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Waiting because I don't have time to help with the backlog as WP:GAN/I#N2 requests. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:09, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Menu

Old text:

The menu begins with shareable starters. Game offerings include duck sausage, and amaranth tostadas with dip made from tepary beans and smoked trout. Owamni serves a crispy cricket seed mix with chili and maple as an appetizer and toasted crickets for croutons in salad. Plant starters include maple chile crisp served on roasted sweet potatoes. Owamni serves bison tartare, garnished with wasna. Curled crackers in the dish are made of wild rice and corn's ancestor, teosinte. Corn sandwiches are arepas heaped with ground elk, sweet potatoes and pepitas. Other sandwiches are turkey with sprouts, or the three sisters: black bean pureé, pickled squash, and corn. Dessert could be a tart with wild rice crust holding sweet parsnip and squash, topped with berries and flowers. Sunflower seed and honey cake is frosted with agave squash caramel. A parfait of foraged berries alternates with walnut cream made of maple syrup and walnuts.

Suggested new text:

Some of the dishes served include amaranth tostadas with dip made from tepary beans and smoked trout, a crispy cricket seed mix with chili and maple, bison tartare, garnished with wasna and curled crackers made of wild rice and corn's ancestor, teosinte. Also served are sandwiches arepas heaped with ground elk, sweet potatoes and pepitas, or turkey with the three sisters: black bean pureé, pickled squash, and corn.

There is no need to mention each and every item in the menu. The reference list looks now rather dodgy, but that is caused by references declared else whwere in the text than this section.The Banner talk 10:15, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I incorporated your version and added a sentence. What looks dodgy to you? I am trying hard to satisfy your requirements, which seem to be the opposite of DYK and GA, in that you like shrinking text to focus, not expanding as I tend to do naturally. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The reference list on this talk page, not the one in the article. The Banner talk 17:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

For articles and places there is far less risk of advertising. Contrary to what most people think, more is not always better as you can loose yourself in irrelevant details. Selecting the essentials is difficult and when I write I tend to be cautious: when in doubt, leave it out. The Banner talk 18:02, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you much. I learned a lot from you here. Best wishes and happy holidays. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:13, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Images

I like the new photo and I'm trying to find a good way to avoid MOS:SANDWICH. The infobox apparently only takes one (some will take more). So far best I can do is far right, under the map. But maybe someone here knows a trick with the multiple image template? -SusanLesch (talk) 20:05, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to remove or adjust as you see fit. I prefer the sandwiched text over the large white column created by the infobox stretching down into the References section, but that's just me and my screen. You've put the most work into this article (thanks, by the way!) so please illustrate to your preferences. :) ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The photo is a decorative image of text and should be removed, per MOS:TEXTASIMAGES. Feel free to include text saying that a sign in the restaurant says, "you are on native land". The source to support the edit is already used in the article. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the image for now. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Well I figured out the multiple image template, and reduced the logo size. I think the sign needs to be cropped. But here I see you removed it so I will, too. BTW, MOS:TEXTASIMAGES gives good alternatives (alt text, captions, and running prose). -SusanLesch (talk) 23:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Racket is fine

Hi User:Magnolia677. I noticed that Racket was founded by former City Pages editors. City Pages was a reliable and valuable source but died in the pandemic. So I asked on the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. They agreed with me, that Racket is fine to use for the menu. I will reverse this edit. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)