Talk:Ovens (disambiguation)

Requested move 27 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Good arguments on both sides; readers may be just slightly inconvenienced with either setup. It's an obscure page anyway: default to leave it be. — JFG ^talk 13:52, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

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Ovens → Ovens (disambiguation) – Clear WP:PLURALPT; move so that "Ovens" can redirect to Oven. "Ovens" appears in "Oven" more than 50 times, so clearly this is a term frequently used in the plural. Topics on the disambiguation page are comparatively minor - small towns and obscure people. bd2412 T 16:34, 27 June 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. —  AjaxSmack  15:23, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support WP:ASTONISH. Ovens means plural of oven. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:57, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose obviously. No evidence anyone searching for oven would search with the plural. It's obvious anyone looking for anything named "Ovens" would search with "Ovens". --В²C ☎ 22:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Here is the evidence you seek. A Google search for "Ovens" indicates that there are many different kinds, referred to in the plural as "Ovens". In fact, you have to go pages and pages in before finding anything that isn't an oven. bd2412 T 04:11, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
    • How is that evidence that anyone, let alone significant numbers, searching for Oven would search with "Ovens"? --В²C ☎ 19:33, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
      • Is there something special about "Ovens" that would make us think it should be given different treatment than the typical redirecting from plural to singular per WP:PLURALPT? —BarrelProof (talk) 21:34, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
        • Yes. There are a number of uses for "Ovens", none of which (including the plural for oven) meets primary topic criteria as far as I can tell, so it should be a dab page. By having Ovens redirect to Oven we're declaring that the article at Oven is the primary topic for "Ovens". I don't see how that's true. Note that Windows redirects to the article about the software, not to Window. There too the plural of the common every day word is not the primary topic. We also have Wood about the common word, but Woods is a dab page. --В²C ☎ 01:35, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
          • I don't think "Woods" is a very relevant example. "Wood" is a mass noun. Like "water", "furniture", or "luggage", it is not typically made plural (and in fact, furnitures and luggages are red links). "Woods" has a different meaning, and should probably redirect to Forest. "Ovens", in contrast, is an ordinary plural of a count noun. "Windows" also has a rather exceptionally prominent non-plural meaning. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:06, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
            • I'll try to find better examples but that's besides the point. I just don't see how or why the plural of oven is the primary topic for "Ovens", given all the other uses and the higher likelihood that one of them is being sought by someone searching with "ovens". Perhaps you're not personally familiar with people or places named Ovens, but that's hardly a reason to discount those uses, I'm sure you agree. --В²C ☎ 19:24, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support, though maybe Oven (disambiguation) would be a better location. There's an Oven Studios and the surnames van Oven and von Oven, which have several name-holders. —Xezbeth (talk) 07:48, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

• It can be a separate disambiguation page. Peter James (talk) 08:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support or move to Oven (disambiguation), as clear WP:PLURALPT. —BarrelProof (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support the form Oven (disambiguation). Other than clearly justified exceptions specified under WP:PLURALPT, simple plurals should redirect to the singular form topped by a hatnote pointing to the disambiguation page. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 05:39, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Only one of the ten meanings of Ovens on the disambiguation page is a plural. Peter James (talk) 08:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per User:Born2cycle and WP:NOTDICT. There has still been no evidence that encyclopedia users typing "Ovens" are seeking the article on the oven. There is a way to test the WP:PLURALPT hypothesis (which I will do now) but it will require patience: create a new redirect at, say, [[oven (cooking)]] and pipe that redirect on the Ovens disambiguation page. Wait a week or so and then analyze the page count numbers of that redirect vis-à-vis those of the disambiguation page. Then it can be determined if readers who arrive at "Ovens" are really seeking oven or not. —  AjaxSmack  15:22, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
  • That seems like a very interesting experiment, and I think we should keep the experiment running for a while. This page averages only about 3 views per day, and the number jumped by huge factor when the RM was filed – it got 11 times that number on the 28th, so it seems likely that most of the page's visitors are not people who are looking for "Ovens". Instead they are people attracted by the RM discussion. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to close the RM as "Let's wait and see", and then come back in a month or two and see what happened. There is no deadline. One confounding issue is that some of the people who land on the dab page will just balk without proceeding to select any of the links. We don't know what percentage of visitors will do that. Perhaps we should use "special redirects" for all of the serious candidates and then compare those page view numbers to each other. Only then will we know what topics are attracting visitors who come through the dab page. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

    As discussed above, I don't think we really learn much if only one entry on the page uses a special link. I therefore set up special links for all entries. We can delete those later after observing how much they get used. Oven (cooking) has been getting about one view per day. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:23, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

    About a further week has passed by. Please see this link for the results in progress. Taking the 7th as the starting date, the special redirect to "oven" has been used 17 times, one other link was used three times, one other one was used once, and the rest have not been used at all. To me this looks like clear primary topic behavior so far. The link to "Oven" is getting more than 4 times the traffic of all the others combined. And most of the people who have landed at "Ovens" have not clicked on any of the links (although some of those people may be looking at the page because it is under discussion). —BarrelProof (talk) 23:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per AjaxSmack. There are enough separate encyclopedic instances of "Ovens" that it should be a separate dab page. Dohn joe (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support, but am not opposed to AjaxSmack and BarrelProof's suggestion about an experiment. Srnec (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment. I agree with the idea to postpone this decision until we have evidence from AjaxSmack's experiment (though I'm confident it will bear out my suspicion: People rarely search WP for the cooking oven by using the plural search term "ovens"; people searching with "Ovens" are usually looking for one of the subjects named "Ovens".) --В²C ☎ 00:34, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  We can already answer that from usage in existing user drafts like User:Cronin/Efficient energy use#Energy efficient appliances, User:Powerzone1/sandbox, and user pages like User:Jessiebestie. bd2412 T 14:30, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  I don't know how strong of an indicator usage in user drafts like that is of usage in searches. The experiment looks at this directly. --В²C ☎ 22:28, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

  Disambiguation links are no joke. bd2412 T 22:42, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support. None of the other entries on the dab page come even close to Oven in terms of common usage or long-term significance for the term "Ovens". The page view stats show the oven page is vastly more popular than any other "ovens" topic: [1] and all the top results from Google books concern cooking ovens of one form or another: [2] It is a very clear primary topic. The dab page should be moved to Ovens (disambiguation) per the nom, rather than Oven (disambiguation), on the grounds that all of the non-ptopic entries are about "Ovens".  — Amakuru (talk) 10:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. This page has some ~3 views a day [3], and it spiked recently only because of this very RM. I don't think that a sensible "primary topic" analysis is even possible, and I'm sure that it is not necessary. The current setup is sensible and please leave it be. I'm not against AjaxSmack's proposal, but it's simply not worth the collective effort. No such user (talk) 10:59, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note from closer: I have removed the temporary dab links created to measure traffic. — JFG ^talk 14:06, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Learned quite a bit about John Ovens after whom the river, town and submarine were named! — JFG ^talk 14:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

For the record, while the experiment lasted, its results favoured the proposal. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:21, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 26 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) The editor whose username is Z0 10:22, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

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Ovens → Ovens (disambiguation) – The article titled Oven is clearly the primary topic for the plural per WP:PLURALPT. The article gets way more views [[4]] than the others. Per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT the title may have a different term than the term, in this case the article on the cooker is titled singularly simply due to WP NC. The difference for Car is much less clear by views [[5]] but the vehicle is still the primary topic there. Per WP:NOTDICT we tend to redirect plurals to their singular. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support per the nominator's rationale. ╠╣uw [talk] 16:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support. "Ovens", in the plural, appears over fifty times in the article "oven". Clearly it is common to refer to the concept in the plural. bd2412 T 17:03, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support per all of the above. This move is an "easy bake", and good find. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:27, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per last year. There are enough encyclopedic uses of "ovens" to justify a separate dab. Dohn joe (talk) 01:16, 27 August 2018 (UTC) Support per BarrelProof's special redirect experiment. Dohn joe (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
  • A separate disambiguation page at a "Foo (disambiguation)" title would still be a separate disambiguation page. bd2412 T 03:45, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support per WP:PLURALPT and last year. Note that the statistics gathered in the experiment with special links last year supported the proposal (as summarized above). The link to "Oven" was getting more than 4 times the traffic of all the other links on the dab page combined. —BarrelProof (talk) 03:14, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

  Not to mention that only 2 items are likely to be called just "Ovens"-the Australian town (and its station) and Irish village, and before you even consider long-term significance. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

  BarrelProof - would you mind resummarizing or posting the results of the special redirect experiment? Thanks. Dohn joe (talk) 16:12, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

  I can't figure out a way to show the old page view counts. The page view analyzer seems to fail when asked to provide page view counts for redirect names and article names that no longer exist. I can only refer back to my previous summary of the results (which no one disputed at the time). —BarrelProof (talk) 18:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

  I wouldn't worry about those views, we know that "Ovens" overwhelmingly refers to the cooker. There are even ovens in Ovens, County Cork and Ovens, Victoria. Even readers interested in those would probably expect "Ovens" to be about the cooker. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:45, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
• Support while there is no Oven (disambiguation) page, Ovens (disambiguation) is the correct place to move this. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.