Talk:Outside (David Bowie album)

Outside movie ?

I vaguely heard about a movie version of Outside... Does it exist? Where can I find more infos? Thanks ...

That's entirely new to me. Have you asked about this on the forum at davidbowie.com? Granttarredus (talk) 08:47, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

"1.Outside" or just "Outside" ?

I think that the name of this album is just Outside, as it appears printed on the side of the box. The number 1 on the cover just shows that it's the first album of a trilogy (unfinished by now), but I don't think it's part of the proper name of the album. --SugarKane 19:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

well...

It's not standarized yet. Some sources say that it's 1.OUTSIDE, while some other ones say it's just Outside. The number represents that it's first of the trilogy - that's true. --(unsigned)

Moving

I'm moving it from 1.OUTSIDE to Outside (album) and changing the name from 1.OUTSIDE to Outside. The number is not closely tied to the name, as evidenced by related names not including it (Excerpts from Outside and "Outside Tour") and not being included consistently on the box (see comment above). The uppercasing is purely stylistic, for the same reasons. --PEJL 14:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm

It was supposed to be the first of five albums, not three I believe but that's irrelevant. It is frequently referred to as 1. Outside in e.g. Complete David Bowie, so I think this should be reverted... 195.157.52.65 11:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Reply

As noted above, it is referred to in both ways in different places, including on the album itself. How it is referred to in non-official places (such as in that book) should carry very little weight. --PEJL 12:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Changed to 1. Outside

I changed it to 1. Outside. Unforutnately I acted bold before I read the talk page (doh!). It doesn't seem like it's okay either way so I will leave it. Jason Quinn (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I have changed it back because pages should not be moved by pasting. We have a "move" function for that. Should the move seem desirable, an administrator would be happy to help at Wikipedia:Requested moves. I'd be happy to do it myself, if a note is dropped at my talk page. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:45, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we should mention the alternative title somewhere in the article? -- Rainwarrior (talk) 21:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Common name

This has been done over and over in other Bowie articles (like for Hours or Blackstar). The large majority of WP users will search for 'Outside' and should find this article. The small majority who search for '1. outside' should also find this article. But WP:COMMONNAME says stick with what's simplest - so it should be Outside and should mention that it's occasionally referred to as "1. Outside". 87Fan (talk) 22:06, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Nicholas Greco's master's thesis on Outside

A guy called Nicholas Greco wrote his master's thesis in music criticism about Outside. I think it's an interesting analysis showing how Outside holds up as a work of art. David Bowie's 1. Outside - The creation of a liminoid space as a metaphor for pre-millennial society How about mentioning it in the article? Outside sure has some extraordinary qualities. A perspective on those could make this a great article. Jonah Lark 23:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Outside (David Bowie album)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:35, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Taking a look in a few hours...you know the drill....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:35, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Casliber Queries below. Thanks for reviewing! – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Reuniting Bowie and musician Brian Eno following the late 1970s Berlin Trilogy, the two were inspired by concepts "outside" the mainstream.... - the subject changes between clauses. Suggest rewriting or splitting somehow.

• How's that look? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Better - a semicolon might work slightly better for flow but no big deal. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:55, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• In late 1993, Bowie and Eno began phoning and faxing each other ideas... - why not just say, "In late 1993, Bowie and Eno began sending each other ideas..."

• So it's in past tense I changed it to just "sent". – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Reading Schwarzkogler's article, it's not clear he cut off his penis....?

• Hmm that's odd. I found this article stating that he did, but if he didn't that's the only thing my sources attribute to him. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Personnel-wise, Bowie recruited players from across his entire career. - do we need to say " Personnel-wise"?

• I guess not.

• ... Kızılçay was oppressive at first, finding them confusing and useless - not sure what "oppressive" is supposed to mean here..

• He basically detested to their use, thinking they weren't that helpful. The source states that he felt uncomfortable compared to the making of Buddha and was "not a fan" of the cards. That make sense? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Frontman Trent Reznor was initially hesitant about the idea at first, finding it intimidating, but graciously accepted. tautology - lose one of "initially" and "at first". Also, why "graciously" accepted?

• My bad. The sources basically say he was enthusiastic about it when he accepted so I thought I'd add an adjective. Remove that? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Yeah I would Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:55, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• In subsequent decades, Outside has garnered a more positive reception --> I'd say "Over subsequent decades, Outside has garnered a more positive reception"...actually come to think of it, I think I'd just say "Outside has since garnered a more positive reception" unless there is a really compelling reason to mention decades...

• Done

• He primarily criticised the production as dated and concept as too underdeveloped - why "primarily"? Do we lose meaning if we remove it?

• Nope, removed

• to have "a truly significant impact", - rewrite using different words so we can lose the quotation marks

• How about "a long-lasting impact"? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Yeah that'll do Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:55, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• Sean T. Collins also criticised its incomplete state - consider changing adjective to "unfinished" or somesuch as we've just used "incomplete" above.

• Done

• One source of criticism Outside has received concerns its length - why not just "Outside has been criticised for its length"

• Fixed. Sometimes I use too many words

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA): Right, this passes on comprehensiveness and prose. Your prose is engaging and pleasant to read, but could probably do with some more tightening like this, for instance. My ability to pick up redundancies drops dramatically after my first read-through so I recommend a new set of eyes on it before FAC. I do think this is otherwise within striking distance of FA-hood. A nice read all up. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:04, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 01:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

---

Outside (David Bowie album) → 1. Outside – Primarily on the grounds of WP:Natural disambiguation, to use "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title". Sources - and physical releases of the album itself - utilise title both with and without "1." appelation, so the natural disambiguation should be used. See [1] and [2] from artist's official website (NB Selecting "1. Outside", reading the lack of space in "1.OUTSIDE"/"1.Outside" as part of stylisation). U-Mos (talk) 00:09, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

OPPOSE. Outside itself is a disambiguation page. WP:COMMONNAME says it should be called Outside. Please see the conversation on this topic already on the talk page. 87Fan (talk) 15:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose per above – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:49, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Apologies if I'm missing something - what is the relevance of Outside being a disambiguation page? Other than the fact that it necessitates a less concise title here, hence my rationale for moving. I did indeed assess the conversations on this talk page, noting the recognition that sources are not consistent, that natural disambiguation has nevertheless not been discussed, and also that there has never been a formal move discussion. U-Mos (talk) 22:57, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

"Natural disambiguation" is already built in, isn't it? The name of the page is "Outside (David Bowie album)". My point about the disambiguation page was that nobody who searches for 'Outside' is going to accidentally end up here, and nobody who searches for "David Bowie's Outside album" is going to fail to end up here. There is nothing broken with the way it is right now. And, as has been pointed out in several Bowie album articles ("Heroes"", "hours..." and EARTHLING), the stylized name of the album isn't the best way for people to find what they're looking for. Anyone who doesn't know that the album was occasionally called 1. Outside will learn within a few seconds of reading the article's lede. It's literally the first thing there. 87Fan (talk) 00:06, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The current title is not natural disambiguation, as it uses parentheses to distinguish this article from other subjects called Outside. The proposed title removes that necessity. I'm not disputing that "Outside" alone is the most common name, but per the quotation above an alternative and also commonly used name is preferred when it removes the need for disambiguation. U-Mos (talk) 00:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: That does not seem to be the common names, and it is very unusually formatted, per MOS:TM. The current title seems fine. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:44, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME as 87Fan already said. QuietHere (talk) 01:11, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

• Note from proposer Could I ask that all responses engage with WP:NATURAL, as that is the basis of the move request? The most common name is not being disputed. U-Mos (talk) 01:23, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

  Natural disambiguation is nice, but it is not a much higher priority than other considerations. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

David Lynch/Lost Highway soundtrack

Article mentions inspiration by Twin Peaks; the song I'm Deranged is used twice on the soundtrack to the movie Lost Highway, which was directed by David Lynch. Trent Reznor, who collaborated with Bowie, produced the soundtrack. Long story short, there is a big missing Lynch/Bowie/Reznor connection that is not discussed in the article. Cyberbytli (talk) 11:17, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I would argue none of that is relevant to this album article. Of course that info belongs in the "I'm Deranged" article, but mentioning that one song being apart of another, plus the director and producer, leans into excess. But I appreciate the concern. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 14:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)