Talk:Operation Frankton

Confusion about the fate of the men

The article is written to say that all men are killed, see 'Mission', last line > "All four are believed to have been shot by firing squad on or around 23 March 1943". Yet Corporal Bill Sparks passed away in 2002. Can I suggest that someone with more khowlege on this clean up who survived and who was killed and how? IMike360 (talk) 14:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)iMike360

Suggest 'Cockleshell Heroes - The Final Witness' book ... this is the definitive account and provides the evidenced material throughout. six men were executed, and two other men DID NOT DROWN as is mentioned and two escaped. or far too long the incorrect information has been written and churned around..see the Final Witness book as above ; there is nothing better. Its truely an eye opener. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.111.12 (talk) 14:52, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

They were kayaks,

They were kayaks, but I think most people would have used the term canoe to cover both. Jooler 14:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• Most material refers to them with the generic name 'canoes'. As Jooler points out above, the picture is of a kayak but most people use the term to canoe to cover both. To be totally accurate the term 'kayak' should be used in the article. Boatman 07:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Please would the user who changed kyak to canoe several times comment on why. I am sure there are good reasons so it would be good to read them. Boatman 08:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am currently reading the book Cockleshell Heroes. Contrary to my previous comment, they were canoes, designated as Cockles (a cockleshell being a nautical term for a small flimsy boat (according to the OED in use from about 1640)), with a water-tight covering that resemble modern two man kayaks that were especially designed for the purpose. Traditional Eskimo/Inuit kayaks were tested but rejected. Jooler

They were sometimes referred-to as 'folbots' or 'folboats' - (folding boat) - they were a type of wooden-framed canvas-covered kayak that could be collapsed downwards, i.e, flattened rather like an empty pea pod. This allowed them to be passed down a submarine's angled torpedo loading hatch, as well as taking up less storage space inside the submarine. They were usually stored in the submarine's re-load torpedo stowage racks, and 'un-collapsed ' after being brought up on deck. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.252.245 (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

See here: Folding kayak - although for some reason the 'cockle' type Folbot used in Frankton (and the later Operation Jaywick) isn't even mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.55.169 (talk) 19:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately the Lucas Phillips book gets quite a number of things incorrect , least the dimensions of the canoe used... the terms folbot etc given for a flatten downwards canoe are incorrect the term was and is an incorrect generic term used. for ALL canoe related information there is only one book for the absolute understanding of WW2 military canoes.. it explains and evidences .. 'Cockleshell Canoes' by Quentin Rees. the military termed the boats canoes not kayaks and they gave them a CODE-NAME which was 'Cockle'.. the ref above by Jooler is therefore incorrect. if you want to avoid any confusion you need to read the above mentioned book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.111.12 (talk) 14:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Assessment - items needed

• The article is a good start, but needs references added. — ERcheck (talk) 14:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggest 'Cockleshell Heroes - The Final Witness' book ... this is the definitive account and provides the evidenced material throughout —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.111.12 (talk) 14:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Commemorative Journey?

Why is this whole article about the '07 reenactment? Is it even usable? It is take verbatim from someone's story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.86.153 (talk) 14:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Targets

Under Operation Frankton#Bordeaux, reference is made to "the fast patrol boat Sperrbrecher", but the Sperrbrecher linked there isn't a fast patrol boat. Other sources suggest it was Sperrbrecher 14, ex Bockenheim, ex Norwegian. Is there any evidence that it was an FPB? - David Biddulph (talk) 16:15, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Dunno, but the Sperrbrecher article comments that "Later in the war the Sperrbrecher type ships were used to escort U-boats in and out of harbor." - possibly they were in the area for those duties? I'm also tempted, under wp:engvar to change "harbor" to harbour", but that's a side issue. a_man_alone (talk) 17:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

William Sparks's autobiographical account

As it is a primary source, I have added this reference under 'Further Reading'. I believe it is the only first-hand account and thus should be mentioned in the article. It is reasonable, I think, to accept as correct all that Sparks says of his own involvement, but to recognise that he may have had no more than general knowledge of the detailed actions and fates of his colleagues. John M Brear (talk) 11:43, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Raymond Quick

An Old Boy of my school, his memorial on the school website says he was a member of this team, yet he is not mentioned at all here http://www.rhscommunity.co.uk/news/76264/Cockleshell-Hero-dies-in-hospital-at-age-of-95.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.148.140 (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Strategical importance

"The British Prime Minister Winston Churchill believed the mission shortened the war by six months."

That's an overwhelmingly bold statement on a war that involved an entire continent (referring to just the European theatre here), considering they sank five, possibly six ships. Assuming this comes from that book, are there any other sources that support this? If not, it should be removed. -- MiG (talk) 12:05, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

The operation halted the German use of blockade running surface ships bringing important cargoes of rare commodities such as rubber and tin to Germany from Japanese-occupied Malaya. After the operation the Germans had to resort to bringing in much smaller quantities of these materials by U-boat instead. As a result Germany suffered severe shortage of rubber and these other materials later in the war.

The operation was carried out as a commando raid becasue the RAF could not bomb the shipping in the harbour without serous risk to the French civilians living nearby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.53.180 (talk) 09:25, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

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Fate of the ships

The article is seriously lacking on the fate of the ships targeted by the Frankton team. Eastfarthingan (talk) 16:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)