Talk:October Project

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The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page.

Article talk pages should NOT be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.

(Please see Wikipedia's Talk Page Guidelines from which the above is quoted.) MezzoForte 16:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

October Project's Status as a Band -- UNDO of Misguided Edit

The recent changes made to this article by an anonymous editor (15 July 2007) were primarily in an effort to redefine October Project's status from that of a "band" with "members" to that of a "team" with "participants." This may have arisen from the editor's appreciation of the importance of OP's songwriting team to the band's trajectory (the editor has posted no explanation), but the changes DO NOT accurately describe the legitimate relationship of the band members, and further, the usage of such teminology is anomylous in band literature and ultimately misleading.

Of the six individuals who comprised the original lineup of OP, five of them set their names and signatures to a series of agreements that bound them together as a band. Like so many major-label bands before them, they signed a contract with their manager, a contract with their record label, a contract with their merchandise supplier, a contract with their music publisher, and together had an understanding among themselves. They rehearsed, performed and traveled together for the seven years they were a unit. It is absolutely unsupportable to to describe OP in other than the STANDARD terms thereto appertaining.

The editor's efforts to conform the article to this unfortunate usage has rendered some sentences nearly nonsensical, such as the last sentence of "History," paragraph 2. Similarly, it is also unnecessary to refer to opening acts as "special guests," or to sidemen as "guest participants."

The inclusion of several other edits of questionable rationality (listed below) lead to the necessity of an UNDO.

(1) The band's name is October Project, not "The October Project." It is rendered as such on all their official releases and promotional materials. This is a common mistake, similar to the mistake of adding "The" to the band called Talking Heads.

(2) October Project has never been referred to as "the Project," nor has its music been categorized as a "folk" derivative.

(3) Belica's solo project is called Decembergirl (one word).

(4) Punctuation marks were added within the double-bracketted internal hyperlinks, rendering the links inoperable. They had to be removed.

(5) Finally, terms such as "fell apart" and "now reduced" are on the verge of BIAS and suggest lack of neutral POV.

MezzoForte 23:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Speculative Content Edit

Several edits (dated 1-4-08 and 2-25-08) were made to the “Subsequent developments” section of this article by the same anonymous editor, adding information that is clearly speculative in nature. The reasons for the present re-edit are outlined below:

(1) The question of whether or not November Project’s unreleased full-length album was considered by all of the band members to be “completed” has never been addressed in verifiable source material. Because it is quite possible (although also unverified) that the staus of that album might have counted among the band’s “artistic differences,” any insinuation of the album’s completeness would be biased. The only fact here is that the album was never released.

(2) Both the extent and nature of the funding of November Project’s unreleased album has never been addressed in verifiable source material.

(3) Conjecture as to the current status of October Project, its official website, or its “upcoming album,” whether negative (as it is in this case) or positive, is not within the proper function of an objective article, nor within Wikipedia’s NPOV guidelines.

(4) Announcing the possible reissue of Falling Farther In is essentially a promotional statement. Additionally it is not clear whether the album was ever formally discontinued by Epic — its current unavailability on iTunes would not necessarily suggest such a discontinuance.

MezzoForte (talk) 00:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Many of the former NP members have stated that the album was complete. The 'NomemberProject.com' website put together by these members at the time of the breakup stated as much.

2. This is just entirely untrue. The band's official website at the time (www.novemberproject.com) laid out the nature of the 'Album Project' fan-funding in its entirety. The deletion of this info basically seems like an attempt to deny past actions that may show the band in an unfavorable light. I have added a reference to an archived page from the band's official website which details the fan funding. http://web.archive.org/web/20010405105330/www.novemberproject.com/albumproject.htm

3. Current status (in OP's case, inactive) is a part of virtually every band's article on Wikipedia. The fact that a band has not had a website update, nor released any music, nor performed live in close to two years does not leave its inactive status as 'conjecture'.

4. The first ever reissue of any of October Project's original Epic releases is a fact, and a noteworthy one.

This page reads like a fansite. To let something as noteworthy as the fan-funding of an unreleased album go without mention certainly calls the neutrality of this article into question.

It is also curious that the user MezzoForte seems to attribute the band's 'hiatus' to the birth of Belica's twins. There is no statement of this, or any other reason for the band's inactivity on the official website, or that this is in fact a temporary hiatus. How do you know this? TomFriend08 (talk) 12:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Tom. Your research is appreciated and your points are well-taken.

1. I'm not familiar with the "NoMember" site. Judging by its name, it seems possible that it was started by disgruntled members of the band. Evidently, as with many other bands, there was friction among the members of NP. But most would agree that a site devoted to venting one side of the band's argument may be unreliable as to its content and neutrality. As responsible editors, we should assume so.

2. Well-researched. This does establish the nature of fan financing, but not the extent of it. We know neither the amount contributed nor the percentage covered by other sources of financing. The archived web page gives no indication. Inserting the word "partially" would seem to cover this unknown.

3. There is no dispute as to the band's current inactive status. The objection originally was to the inappropriately judgmental tone of the text -- verging on bias. "Hiatus" was at first substituted to convey the inactivity without the tone. Its usage is not derogatory. The beginning of the band's inactivity does coincide with the birth of Belica's children. And although direct causality was not stated nor was the word "temporary" ever used, the impression of causality had been inadvertently created. The sentence has been changed.

4. I completely agree that such a reissue is noteworthy. However, without proper verification as to its factuality (not yet provided), the impression given was that of fan-site gossip.

MezzoForte (talk) 20:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, and the changes to the article (including clarification on the V2 label restructuring) which at least to me, seems a lot more neutral in tone now. Below is a link to the reissued 'Falling Farther In'. Feel free to include or exclude it as you feel necessary. http://www.amazon.com/Falling-Farther-October-Project/dp/B0012GN0RG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1205682306&sr=1-3

TomFriend08 (talk) 15:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Tom, many thanks for the hyperlink to Amazon. The Product Details section of that page does appear to suggest that FFI was re-released by SBME, Sony's special markets label, on 3-1-08. I am confused, however, by the same section on a similar Amazon page (see below), which seems to suggest the album was not actually out of print. Is this a label transfer or a re-release? I can't be sure. http://www.amazon.com/Falling-Farther-October-Project/dp/B000002B1O/ref=pd_sim_m_img_1#moreAboutThisProduct

MezzoForte (talk) 16:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, the album has never been O.O.P. as far as I'm aware. I believe it may be a budget re-release possibly with cardboard packaging rather than a standard jewel-case, as SBME has re-released a lot of Epic's back catalog in this format of late. I've e-mailed Sony for clarification, and will post here if I receive a response. All the best. --TomFriend08 (talk) 17:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)