Talk:National Museum of Folk Architecture and Folkways of Ukraine

DYK

• ...that a recent fire in the open air Museum of Folk Architecture and Life of Ukraine (traditional Ukranian church pictured) was caused by an arson, set to cover up the theft of a valuable collection of the eighteenth-century cassones exhibited in the burned building?

Good work. Submitting to DYK? —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 15:38 Z

Submitted. And thanks for copyedit! --Irpen 16:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Dumplings

Should the article mention that the name means 'perogies' (gen.)? —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 16:22 Z

That would be Pyrohy. Likely the origin indeed but I did not find this mentioned anywhere. Will look. --Irpen 16:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops; should have linked genitive case, literally "of perogies" or "some perogies". —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 16:54 Z

However, we need to find a source that would state the etymology of the village's name. I did not find anything on it but there must be something out there. --Irpen 17:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

How about this? —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 17:34 Z

Although the origin of the toponym is uncertain, pyrohiv is a Ukrainian word meaning a kind of stuffed dumpling: 'perogies' (gen. pl.).

Sounds good to me. Please add it and give a thought to Demesne as well. --Irpen 17:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I found a good solution using a redirect: the modern word domain stems from demesne. —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 19:02 Z

Guys, what are 'perogies'? That's neither 'pierogies', nor 'pyrohy'.--tufkaa 19:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Besides, IMO the closest Ukrainian thing to Pierogies is Varenyky, while "Пироги" and "пиріжки" (pyrohy and pyrizhku) are different dishes, both from varenyky and from each other. I think someone will come up with more definitive info. --Irpen 20:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Perogy is a headword in my Canadian Oxford Dictionary, listed as a N. Amer. word, and pirogi, pierogi, pyrohy and a few others are listed as variants of it (and all of their entries simply refer to perogy). The etymology cites the Polish and Ukrainian words.

Where I come from, the word is well-known by anglophones, and is much more commonly used than the other spellings. So much so that a few Chinese restaurants describe their pot-stickers as "Chinese perogies" on their menu. —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 20:26 Z

Would someone please explain the difference between pyrohy and varenyky to me? I have read both articles, and I'm really none the wiser. All I know is that pyrih is also a generic word for stuffed dumplings or pastries (I've even heard it used for pie). —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 20:32 Z

Varenyky is dumpling while Pyrohy and Pyrizhky is pastry. See eg. here. --Irpen 20:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah! My mother, from Lviv, usually calls things like that pliatsok or perekladanets’, and we often say pyrohy for varenyky. Prairie Canadians know pyrizhky too, but they're not as familiar as "perogies" (meaning varenyky). —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 20:49 Z

Well, there are differences in Ukrainian regional speak and Galicia and Dnieper Ukraine have much different histories that reflected on the languages. But i would assume that the Pyrohiv has more to do with pastry than with dumplings. For instance in this folk song about "І з сиром пироги" is about pastry, I am sure :). --Irpen 20:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

And I always assumed that one was about perogies, excuse me, varenyky with cottage cheese. —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 20:58 Z

You are right Irpen — the song is about the Ukrainian pyrih - with sweet cottage cheese. It would be very difficult to transport slippery varenyky (dumplings) while travelling on a cart! The idea of the pyrih was that it was relatively dry, and therefore could be easily put in a kit-bag when travelling.--Pkravchenko (talk) 11:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

There is definitely a need for an article on pyrih. —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 21:00 Z

I think we should just add a redirect and more info to a pie. But as for пирожок/пиріжок, I am not familiar with any English word that would adequately translate it. --Irpen

Has already been done - look at Pirozhki - technically it is best to use the words pirozhki or pyrizhki (if you're Ukrainian), otherwise the nearest (but not exact) match would be pasty.--Pkravchenko (talk) 11:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Pyrih = Pie (not dumplings or 'pierogi')

Firstly, the Ukrainian diaspora in Australia (to the best of my knowledge) have never used pierogi to describe the Ukrainian version of dumplings — they are varenyky. I think that this would be the majority case in Ukraine as well. Any baked pie type pastries have always been pyrohy. I grant that regional dialectical variations exist, including those which have influenced the use of the word pierogi in America/Canada.

The English article on Polish "pierogi" has unfortunately created a lot of confusion in terms of the interwiki links. Although the above page points to the Russian page Пирог, the Russian page prefers to point to the Polish page on Pieróg which is the real Ukrainian or Russian pyrih. Unfortunately, most of the other page on the other countries' pages similarly reinforce this confusion, as they have mostly copied the text from the English page and are all talking about the Polish pierogi (dumplings).

However, the article on pierogi does correctly link to to Ukrainian varenyky in its interwiki column on the left — despite there being a separate page on the English page on varenyky! No wonder people are confused!

Take a look at both the Russian wiki page on вареники and the Ukrainian page on вареники and you will see that they look the same as the Polish 'pierogi'. Alternatively, see the Russian page on пирог to see that it is linked to the English pie.

What also confuses things is the the cyrillic letter Г is pronounced and transliterated as H into English if it relates to a Ukrainian word, and pronounced and transliterated as G into English if it is from a Russian word.

To try to help sort out the confusion, I submit the following — there are 3 separate items that should not be confused with each other:

1. Pyrih (Ukrainian: пиріг — singular) — the closest English equivalent is pie or pasty. Just as there are thousands of different pies, the same is true for pyrihy (plural) — they can be sweet (eg. with cheese, apple, plums) or savoury (with meat, mixed vegetables etc.) Importantly, they are made from pastry (with yeast) that is baked. Just as with pies, they can be of any size. Flat or open versions could be seen as being equivalent to a tart or 'squares'.
2. Pyrizhok (Ukrainian: пиріжок — singular) — what distinguishes pyrizhky (plural) is that they are a 'finger-food' version of a small pyrih. Again, they are baked pastry (usually with yeast, though they can also be either deep-fried or pan-fried, especially if they are with un-yeasted dough) and can have a variety of fillings: meat, potatoes, cabbage etc. The closest English equivalent (but not exact equivalent) would be a pasty, though pyrizhky are not always pinched together along the edges and are always small enough to be eaten with only one hand.
3. Varenyky — (Ukrainian: вареники — plural) — these are totally different to the other two! They are dumplings — un-yeasted dough that is boiled. Again they can have any sort of filling, including sweet (eg. cheese cherries), or savoury (sour cabbage, meat with vermicelli noodles etc.).

--Pkravchenko (talk) 11:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Museum in Google maps

From looking at Google's satellite map, I think the actual museum is at 50.354538°N 30.51223°E / 50.354538; 30.51223 (google maps link—you can zoom in further). The entrance appears to be at the west end. In the open space to the east, you can recognize the four windmills by their shadows, and apparently some market stalls on the path adjacent to them. Any idea what the linear blue-grey structure on the other side of the path is? —Michael Z. 2006-10-03 03:08 Z

Got your question but don't know the answer. But an excellent pick with a better sattelite image, Michael! Please relink. --Irpen 03:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I relinked; previous coordinates are saved here, in case they are significant: 50°20′30″N 30°31′54″E.

I assume that's the village of Pyrohiv to the south-east, between the museum and the highway. Perhaps the village and museum warrant separate articles. —Michael Z. 2006-10-03 04:05 Z

No objection to a separate village article from me. The village also has a notable motorbyke treck. One more thing. There is an eponemous village in UA[1] in Tyvrivskyi Raion, Vinnytsya Oblast. Must be connected to Nikolay Ivanovich Pirogov who retired in his family estate in that area. --Irpen 04:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a suggestion .....

... scrap the word "toponym" - no one outside Wikipeda ever uses it, it's really nothing more than an affectation. Use "place name" or "village name" instead. Please. Maelli (talk) 17:17, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

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