Talk:Natasa Dusev-Janics

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Please rename her into Natasa Janics some registered user! Thx!82.131.154.88 08:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Her name is Natasa Janic , and she is of serbian ethnicity . It should be written that in a first sentence because the same thing is written on Monika Seles page (hungarian ethnicity ) I can sense double standards here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.221.172.169 (talk) 07:35, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Request for Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Natasa Janics → Nataša Janić – 21:19, 31 August 2011 (UTC) I think we should move article to her native name Nataša Janić. She compete under the Hungarian flag, but she has a Serbian or Yugoslavian orgin. Similar situation is with the Hungarians in Serbia (Csaba Szilágyi, Árpád Sterbik, Sándor Páll, Sándor Egeresi, József Kasza...) and with other sportpersons who are competing for country where their origin is not (Momčilo Tapavica, Jelena Dokić, Zlatan Ibrahimović, Bojan Krkić, Nikola Karabatić...), and Nataša previously competed for Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro. It is absurd that the last name of her father and brothers (Mićo Janić and Stjepan Janić) is Janić, but her Janics! --Aca Srbin (talk) 13:58, 31 Augusy 2011 (CEST)

• Support. per WP:UE If there are too few English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject – Athlete better known inside her own country than outside; for encyclopaedic accuracy. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 22:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. This name given without diacritics by ESPN, BBC, Boston Globe, and Budapest Times. Kauffner (talk) 02:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose: All the reliable sources I can find seem to spell the name without diacritics. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:36, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Just for your information, this has nothing to do with diacritics. It is about Hungarian name vs Serbian name. The absence of diacritics in her Hungarian name is for a reason which is that this reflects the pronunciation which in Hungarian is something like Yoneech Notosho. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:57, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment, Reliable sources in English never used a diacritice, but for articles we still using native names (Nemanja Vidić: Goal.com, Jelena Janković: WTA,Ana Ivanović: WTA...). I cited examples and for sportpersons who are competing for country where their origin is not. How is it possible that the surname of her father and brothers (Milan Janić, Mićo Janić, Stjepan Janić) is Janić, but her is Janics? His native and originally name is Nataša Janić no matter where he lives. After all, she competed for FR Yugoslavia before moving to Hungary and then not used the name in the Hungarian version. Example:[1] There is no doubt that she competes under the Hungarian flag, but her name is still Serbian or Yugoslavian. --Aca Srbin (talk) 12:05, 1 September 2011 (CEST)
  • That's nonsense. When people move to different countries it is common for their names to be slightly altered (and the dropping of diacritics is a good example of this). Please provide some reliable sources that actually spell her name "Nataša Janić". At the moment, it looks like moving the article would go against WP:V. Jenks24 (talk) 12:33, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
    • A couple sources without the -s: ICF ICF again, CCTV. ICF has reports with the -s, too, including one spelling her name Janics a few times and Janic once, and her father's name Janic [2]. Gimmetoo (talk) 19:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
      • • Thanks for finding those, but none of them actually use diacritics. Jenks24 (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Note that the proposed move is about shifting her Hungarian name to her Serbian name, it has nothing to do with diacritics. It just happens that the Serbian name contains them and the Hungarian variation doesn't. The proposal is to move JaniCS to JaniĆ. The logic lies behind which nation she is best seen to represent with her identity. Any source that says Janic is a weapon in favour of the proposed move, as it doesn't say "Janics". Any proposal to move Janić to Janic should be done after the completion of this. Likewise, it can be moved plainly to Natasa Janic and be left at that, but that is not being discussed here. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 08:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source in English that actually spell name with diacritics? (Other sportpersons: Nemanja Vidić, Jelena Janković, Ana Ivanović, Jelena Dokić, Franck Ribéry, Cesc Fàbregas, Petra Kvitová, Robin Söderling, László Cseh, Gergő Kis, Zlatan Ibrahimović, Bojan Krkić, Nikola Karabatić...) We still use native name although nowhere in the English sites we can find that. I think it's ridiculous that she has a different surname from his father and brother, but she had not changed. When she was born, she was given the name Nataša (Very often in Serbia or Yugoslavia), last name of her family is Janić, her native language is Serbian and she talked on Serbian with her family, they are ethnic Serbian. I think we should respect their origin, ethnic and names in ther native language. I already gave examples of Hungarians in Serbia (Csaba Szilágyi, Árpád Sterbik, Sándor Páll, Sándor Egeresi, József Kasza...) and now, Hungarians in Romania (András Sütő, László Bölöni, László Sepsi...) We use their native Hungarian name, no matter that they lived in Serbia or Romania...--Aca Srbin (talk) 21:09, 1 September 2011 (CEST)

So basically, when I asked you to provide some reliable sources, your answer is to point to other Wikipedia articles (clearly not RS). I think we should respect the reliable sources by not inventing our own names for people. Jenks24 (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - Although there's a few exception the general rule is to go with the spelling used in the language and the media of the country the sportsperson represents. We already had this discussion at Andrea Petkovic. So not only should Natasa Janics stay where it is (this is what she is called in Hungary by Hungarians, the nation she represents internationally) but also the Serbian people of Hungarian origin you mentioned should be moved to what they are referred to as in Serbia. For example Csaba Szilágyi is in referred to in Serbia as "Čaba Silađi", or in international competitions as "Caba Siladji". Árpád Sterbik is in fact "Arpad Šterbik", Sándor Páll is "Šandor Pal" etc. This is even more important if we know that in the Serbian language all foreign names are phonetically transcribed - e.g. exactly none of the names I just mentioned would be likely to appear in Serbian sources transcribed in their original Hungarian form. The same goes for all other move proposals you initiated, namely:
  • Christina Vukicevic → Christina Vukićević (Norwegian athlete born in Norway of Serbian descent; btw - shouldn't it be "Kristina" if we are to translate everything back into Serbian?)
  • Milos Raonic → Miloš Raonić (Canadian tennis player born in Montenegro and moved to Canada at the age of 3)
  • Kristina Mladenovic → Kristina Mladenović (French tennis player born in France to Yugoslav parents)
  • Alex Bogdanovic → Alex Bogdanović (British tennis player; btw shouldn't it be "Aleksa" to keep in line with your thinking?)
  • Irena Pavlovic → Irena Pavlović (French tennis player born in Belgrade and moved to Paris at the age of 3)

Timbouctou (talk) 21:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

These are all completely different situation that should be discussed separately. Is it true in the Serbian language all foreign names are phonetically transcribed and just because I think we should move the article to her originaly native name Nataša Janić. Csaba Szilágyi and Árpád Sterbik are ethnic Hungarian and and we use their originally surnames and first names they received from their parents in the language that they speak.--Aca Srbin (talk) 00:03, 2 September 2011 (CEST)

• Weak support. Prior to her becoming a Hungarian citizen, she was exclusively Nataša Janić and such she was at the 2000 games. Her family are already notable with the Serbian name. I say however that there are issues with two backgrounds and often the transcribed form is more appropriate. We have this anyhow with Albert Nađ but not with Xherdan Shaqiri. Had Shaqiri ever played for Serbia, his name would have had Serbian language representation too. But then Nađ was not born in Hungary. The other thing is that she is still referred to in some places by her Serbian arrangement name, such as here. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:12, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
• Additional comment. Now we can have a good test to see who is voting for logical reasons and who simply for POV reasons. There may be arguments on two sides however, whichever direction this article goes, Csaba Szilágyi needs to go the other for the same reasons because they are opposite in all but their country of birth which is Yugoslavia; one is a Serb representing Hungary, the other a Hungarian representing Serbia. Naturally I oppose them both being in the same language whether than be Serbian or Hungarian - I say to everyone, make your rules and STICK to them!! Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:25, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
  • I said that we should use original names on native languages no matter where persons live.--Aca Srbin (talk) 00:34, 2 September 2011 (CEST)

• @Evlekis: I agree. The only really debatable cases are people who switched nationality during their (sporting or whatever) career (like for example Nikolaj Pešalov). All other cases should be pretty straightforward with names spelled as written in the country's own language (allowing for exceptions like Ibrahimović or Krkić who obviously insist on the diacritic as evidenced by RS). So articles about these Hungarians from Serbia should all have Serbian-spelled titles with Hungarian versions mentioned in the lead IMO. Besides, they wouldn't have an article in the first place if there were no reliable sources for them - and any source you can find about them is likely to be in Serbian, using the Serbian speling. Timbouctou (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

In life, you win some and you lose some! Sources clearly cite either of two forms for most cases where two states are invovled. It may be best to go along with the state of professional relationship. In Hungarian it has been transcribed, two other examples have shown first name transcription if not second. There are times however when non-Serb/Macedonian/Montenegrin subjects represent these lands and there, we would use the Slavic form (eg. Fatos Bećiraj and Artim Šakiri). Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 23:05, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:V. I am yet to see a source (in any language, reliable or unreliable) that spells her name "Nataša Janić". Jenks24 (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks to No such user for providing some sources (see just below). I disagree that WP:V is a bogus argument – we can't just move articles without any sources backing up the proposed name. Anyway, my above rationale has been cancelled but I still oppose the move. She represents Hungary and the Hungarian sources spell her name "Natasa Janics", we are the English Wikipedia and the English sources spell her name "Natasa Janics" – to me that is case closed and I fail to see how Serbian sources come into the equation (though I do understand that others take a different view). Jenks24 (talk) 11:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. WP:V and WP:UE are completely bogus arguments when we come to spelling of foreign sportspeople. It is trivial to find a ton of reliable sources which spell her name as "Nataša Janić" [3][4][5]. We want to use correct names, not names butchered by English-language sports media by removal of diacritics. By the way, I was the one who moved Caba Siladji to Csaba Szilágyi [6]. I admit that this was a borderline case, and maybe Čaba Silađi was a better choice. That is how he is generally known in his home country, and perhaps even a spelling he uses himself (however, that is certainly not the case for Vojvodina Hungarian politicians). But "Caba Siladji" is not his correct and truthful name under any sane definition of the word.
  That being said, I feel that Nataša Janić is a borderline case as well, so I will stay neutral, as both Serbian and Hungarian spelling have merits. No such user (talk) 07:25, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The Serbian-language media would presumably give her name in Serbian. I look over on ESPN and guess what? It says "Natasa Janics Hungary". Why don't we check the Japanese media and see what she is called in Japanese? Kauffner (talk) 11:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

That's a nice thought! I can tell you that many of the languages in the far east use a phonetical full syllable system which not only renders how they write the word but how they transliterate it too. It's worth knowing I agree but the switch to Hungarian in the first place is supposed to follow a phonological pattern. To my knowledge however, the /i/ of Serbian and Hungarian are a bit different and Hungarian is richer in vowels, but to produce the closest equivalent in Hungarian it would have to be Nátásá Jánéty (full of diacritics); an unmodified /a/ in Hungarian generates a phoneme similar to the "o" of top (with the chin dropped slightly). Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

ESPN has "Natasa Janic" [7] [8] [9] [10] too, as does BBC and Boston.com. Gimmetoo (talk) 12:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Right! And what is more perplexing is that sources may present either form, Hungarian OR Serbian. This one is a bummer. Normally it is best to oppose a move regardless of direction chosen when arguments are equal. It just needs some form of consistency with other subjects so we can avoid such discussions. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 07:55, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

But I think it is more correct and fair that we use names in their native language, not the language of the country where they live. Nataša is especially a specific case, because she grew up in Serbia, most of her life she speaks Serbian, she played for FR Yugoslavia under that name and a small part of his life was spent in Hungary.--Aca Srbin (talk) 12:06, 2 September 2011 (CEST)

Small part? Sorry but the article says she switched nationalities after the 2000 Olympics - and each and every medal you can see listed in the infobox was won from 2002 onwards, e.g. for Hungary. She is immensely more famous for her achievements as a Hungarian sportsperson than a Serbian one. Timbouctou (talk) 13:58, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

So why do so many later reports refer to her by "Janic"? I did a quick survey of 5 general sources; 4 of them refer to her more often as "janic". ESPN: Janics 8 hits, Janic 35 hits; Boston.com: Janics 1 hit, Janic 6 hits; BBC Janics 9 hits, Janic 6 hits; CCTV: Janics 1 hit, Janic 6 hits; CNN: Janics 14 hts, Janic 22 hits. Gimmetoo (talk) 15:38, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Small part big part doesn't really matter here! If she were to become Turkish, she'd be Natașa Yaniç, Albanian might be Natasha Janiq, Polish would make her Natasza Janicz and Slovakian Nataša Janicevá! They all seem to accept one of the local forms for the time being but it tends to change when the subject represents a new nation. Her Serbian name is indelible (permanent), nationality chops and changes as a person chooses! If throughout her career she represents sx states, will we really have six name variations?! Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Err, yes. If she happened to actually appear in sports competitions using six different spellings then yes - we would probably be required to list them all in the article body. But the article's title would always remain the form which is most widely used by reliable sources - and as a rule of thumb it usually happens to be the name used for her greatest achievements (we usually do not change article titles once sportswomen get married and start using their husband's surname and we do not update historic tables to reflect that change). I mean I don't care either way but I fail to see the point in the idea that one's surname is permanent simply because we say so. "John Malkovich" used to be spelled "Malković" at some point and "Milla Jovovich" used to be Jovović - but they are not any longer. Names are subject to change (as well as nationality and ethnicity) and it is certainly not our job to choose people's ethnicity/nationality/names for them. Timbouctou (talk) 22:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, I am baffled as to why a Hungarian form even exists. I would have thought they'd maintain a local form as Croatians do when a person originates from outside. Even in Croatia itself, Italians and Hungarians keep their own orthography for names (eg. Gordon Schildenfeld - German), a friend of mine from Croatia with a Hungarian father has the name Nagy. In Serbian it is only because of the phonetical rules of Cyrillic and its need for Romanic transliteration that you have Serbianised titles. It would be silly for example to write Smith in Latinic but /Смит/ in Cyrillic. Where the need to keep the original form stands within Serbian writing, it even permeates Cyrillic (eg. Coca-Cola је то исто урадила у Уганди). Anyhow, my point is something else, Milla Jovovich and John Malkovich are two true cases of individuals whose names have been transcribed properly and this is a good argument for defending diacritics on the other pages where the age old argument has occurred, diacritics vs non-diacritics. Removal of a diacritic is not a signal that this is how English transcribes the name in question. To that end, Aloysius Ambrozic is another I wouldn't move as his links are to Canada and his first name has already taken on transcription proceeding. By your suggestion Timbouctou, you may wish to have the late Nenad Bijedić moved to Nejat Biyediç as his last contributions in addition to his national status were all Turkish. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:29, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Bijedić moved to Turkey at the age of 27, after having spent 9 years playing 128 top level football matches in his home country. In contrast this article does not provide a single achievement won by Ms Janić while representing Serbia. Not quite the same is it. Besides, you are mixing separate issues here - this is not about diacritic vs. non-diacritic - it is native name vs. adopted name. Aloysius' case is a case of a translated name and is identical to Aloysius Stepinac' and many other church figures (e.g. Pope "John Paul" vs Pope "Ivan Pavao") and monarchs. Ms. Janic(s) is more comparable to Nikolay Pechalov or Saif Saaeed Shaheen or Mirna Jukić or Ivica Vastić. Timbouctou (talk) 15:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Mostly per arguments given by Evlekis. Vladimir (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moving name

She is not more compete for Hungary. She will probably compete for Serbia. Can we now move article to her native name? --Aca Srbin (talk) 16:52, 28 September 2012 (CEST)

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Double standards :

How come that on this page is not written that Natasa Janic is of Serbian ethnicity ,and in Monika Seles page it is written in a first sentence that she is Yugoslav born American tennis player of Hungarian ethnicity ? If ethnicty for athletes is so important ,that you shouls write for every one of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.221.172.169 (talk) 07:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Dear IP, yes there are wiki standards but not everything is compulsory, or could be an option. Also by every person it can be judged what is relevant to mention in the lead. By her, who is allegedly of Serbo-Croatian origin - in the past the one category was removed without explanation, now I will restore it according to this -. It is mentioned that she grew up in the Socialist Republic of Serbia, as well the Hungarian people of Serbian descent category is present at the page. Also take it in consideration that other members of his family are competing fror Croatia and does not deny their Coratian roots, so an emphasize in the lead about a clear Serbian ethnicity could be debated. As well it is also present that before gaining citzenship and competeing for Hungary she represented Serbia. Cheers (KIENGIR (talk) 22:51, 15 June 2018 (UTC))