Talk:Namantar Shahid Smarak/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Hugetim (talk · contribs) 00:20, 12 March 2014 (UTC) I am planning to review this. -hugeTim ^(talk) 00:20, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

hugeTim, Thank you for your decision to review Namantar Shahid Smarak. I saw your note on Bhooshannpy's page and wanted to let you know that I have also worked on the article and would be happy to respond to any feedback you have. SchreiberBike talk 23:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome! I'm glad to hear it! (For what it's worth, the note on the nominator's page was automatically generated. In any case, please be patient with me. This is my first review.) Anyway, I am glad to help improve this article. It is very interesting to me. Here are some initial questions:

1. I started to change the tense in the history section but then I realized I am not sure if some of these ideas and practices are ended or ongoing. For instance, do Dalits still work primarily in jobs considered ritually impure? If not, when did that change?
2. It would be helpful to have a brief description of the Nagpur Municipal Corporation (NMC) in the lead and a larger description in the main body. Is it better described as a council, as its article suggests? Is it basically the city government?
3. How did the NMC select the winning design?
4. How is Buddha Jayanti relevant to the monument (other than falling on the day of its dedication)? How is it "auspicious"? Is Buddhism related to this monument?
5. The article says "the Hindu community" opposed the Namantar Andolan, but that has the potential to be an overly broad generalization. Did all Hindus oppose it? Did some particular segment or organization or leaders of Hindus lead the opposition? I may be wrong in suspecting that this generalization is inaccurate, but if so, a specific source is needed for the claim that all Hindus believed or did this.

More later... -hugeTim ^(talk) 23:46, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses above; I missed them when they came out. I've changed your bullet points above to numbers so I can respond by number. I hope that's OK with you. The first challenge is that almost all of the reliable sources are in Marathi and while Bhooshannpy understands it, I don't. Google translate is available, but I've found it more confusing than helpful. Also, my understanding comes about the monument and India in general comes from reading about India in English language sources rather than any direct experience.

1. Discrimination based on caste has been illegal since 1950, and there have been many advances, but it is still common, especially in rural areas. I don't know if it's true that "Dalits still work primarily in jobs considered ritually impure", but without reliable sources stating that it is true, we should not say that it is. I'll try to clarify that.
2. As I understand it, the Nagpur Municipal Corporation is the city government of Nagpur. I can make that more clear in the article.
3. We weren't able to find information about how the NMC selected the design.
4. Buddha Jayanti is the celebration of the Buddha's birthday. It is significant because many Dalits converted from Hinduism to Buddhism in part based on influence of B. R. Ambedkar. That is described at B. R. Ambedkar#Conversion to Buddhism. I'll look at the article to see how that could be integrated.
5. Your point about "the Hindu community" is good. Clearly not all Hindus were in opposition, but the opposition came from the Hindu community. I'll see if I can rephrase that.

I'll go back and work on the article some more and we can move forward from there. Thanks again, SchreiberBike talk 02:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I've done a bit of rewriting. I'll go over them individually below.

1. I think we've got the tenses right. Some things have been ..., some things are ... and some things were ....
2. Rewrote to refer to "the city government of Nagpur"; no need to go into the details of what Municipal Corporations in India are.
3. Covered.
4. I've clarified the auspiciousness and linked to the conversion
5. The "Hindu community" is difficult because while there were Hindus who worked with the Dalits, so I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, the opposition was, as I understand it, based on the understanding in Hinduism that Dalits were untouchable and that any association with them was spiritually damaging.

Keep on coming with new ideas. SchreiberBike talk 00:40, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Great work! Thank you for your responses. Here are some follow-ups:

• On point 1, let me give you an example of the problems I see with tense, particularly in the Background section. The second sentence of that section is half in the present tense and half in the past tense. The first sentence of the third paragraph provides a similar example. I do not know how to articulate what grammar rule these are breaking, but they sound awkward (at least to this native American English speaker).
• On point 5, one analogy I have in mind (though I don't know whether it will be familiar to you) is the case of the LDS church based in the US. Historically, it supported polygamy and restricted advancement based on race (the latter being officially changed as recently as 1978), but mainstream members do not support those views today. So my question is what proportion of Hindus in the relevant time period held these views. For instance, was it only active Hindus as opposed to cultural Hindus, if there is such a distinction? Was there a generational difference? This article is not the best place to hash this out, but (as far as I know) it is the first article on the topic seeking GA status, and this is a major POV issue.
• A related issue is how widespread the Namantar Andolan was. The lead of this article makes it sound like a nation-wide movement. Is that the case, or was it mostly limited to the state or even the city? If so, we may want to say "among local Hindus." Even if the riots and violence were limited geographically, it may have been a major national issue debated by people throughout the country. Was it? -hugeTim ^(talk) 03:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Here's my thinking, let me know what you think.

• On point 1, I see what you mean and I've made changes, but it is confusing. The religious principals are considered eternal and seem to be best in the present tense, while attitudes are changing and I want to describe those attitudes and practices as being in the past, but there are people who still hold those attitudes and people are still suffering from the practices.
• On point 5, I understand the question and I don't know the answer. I will spend some time with the sources available in English to see if I can clarify.
• Regarding the scale of the Namantar Andolan, I think it was only in the state of Maharashtra, but I'm not sure. I will go back to the sources and see what I can figure out.

I'll do some more reading and get back to you fairly soon. I will be away from a computer for the next couple of days, so it will be a bit before I can respond. Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 07:38, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

Overall:

Pass or Fail: The article has seen some good progress recently, but it still needs more work. After another read through, it is clear that this article is more than a week away from providing the basic facts necessary to understand this monument. The lead makes it sound like the killings memorialized by the monument occurred throughout a 16 year period, but I gather from the Namantar Andolan article that most occurred during the first year of that period. The sources do not really make clear how the five victims named in the first paragraph of the "The monument" section are different from the other 22 included in the monument. In any case, the article should clarify when and how each of the 27 died. There is POV wording throughout, such as "storm of opposition" and "a fight for the pride of the nation." And there remains a serious POV issue regarding who specifically was responsible for the riots and murders and to what extent untouchability remains a Hindu belief. -hugeTim ^(talk) 23:50, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your help hugeTim. It doesn't feel good to have a "fail" next to something I've worked hard on, but I think you are right. Without help from someone who knows the language and the culture, it's hard to get to Good Article status. With your help, the article is better than it was before, and when I get regular access to the Internet again, I will try to work on the issues you suggest. Keep up the good work! SchreiberBike talk 15:55, 25 March 2014 (UTC)