Talk:Nair/Archive 9

Nairi people, Naharin, Saka or Scythian Nairi invaders of India 2000 yrs ago

Nairi people of Armenia were called Naharin by the ancient Egyptians (3000 BC).These Nairis are ethnically same people as Nagas of India who propbably came with the Indo Aryans prior to 1500 BC to India.The Nairis and Indian Nagas worshipped snake,Naga. Later the Nairis formed kingdom at Mittany (Turkey). In a later period in the first millenium BC the invading Scythians from the east made Nairis a sub clan of the Scythians.The Scythians ruled whole of Central and West asia (Scythia) The Scythians orSaka people who were originally from southern Siberia who were ruthless warriors,Slave keepers.The Scythian hordes who were living in the Central asia were uncivilised and were considered Barbarians (Mlechas)by the Indo Aryans as well as the Iranian Aryans.Matriarchy was practised by Scythians.The Saka(Scythians)s who were living in the present day Kazhakstan,Azerbaijan and Afghanistan invaded India in the second century BC. The Scythian Nairis invaded India possibly in the same period ie 200 BC.

Indo Scythian Nairis, Nehras,Nayyars,Newars and Nairs

The Indo Scythian Nairis or Narae might have been parent stock for the Nehra (Jats),Nayyars(Khatri),Newars of Nepal and Uttarkhand, who might be the ancestors of the moderndays Nairs.

Megasthenes mentioned Nairi people, North of Himalyas not Nairs

At 300 BC Megasthenes did visit Pandyan kingdom. He does mention about narae people who were living in a place covered by hills (Himalayas and Hindukush mountains). The Scythian Nairis were possibly then subjects of the Seleucid kingdom.

The term Malabar- Malappuram was coined by Al Biruni in 1050 ad

when he mispronounced Malappuram.

Nairs of Malabar- Megasthenes did not mention

Megasthenes never about mentioned Nairis or Nairs living in Malabar. It is quite misleading.Can anybody point out where exactly he has described Nairs living in Kerala. In all probablity Nairs were still living in Central Asia and Afganistan during 300 BC. The name Malabar was coined by Al Biruni only after 1050 ad when he mispronounced Malappuram. Megasthenes did mention about the Nairis or Narae living somewhere north of Himalayas.

Matriarchy and Sambandham probably evolved in Central asia not India

Dravidians never practised Matriarchy well attested by the ancient Dravidian literature including Sangha literature. Indo Aryans though practised Polyandry, in ancient times never practised Matriarchy. Even Aryan Namboothiris practised Patriarchy.But Scythians of Central asia and Nagas did practice Matriarchy.Matriarchy is practised only by Nairs and related Bunt community of Karnataka whom Keralolpathi depicts as the Sudras who accompanied them from Ahichatra, the Naga Kingdom.

Scythian Nairis or Naga Scythian Nairs of Ahichatra

As mentioned by the Keralolpathi and Kerala Mahatmiyam the Bunts and Nairs are Sudras accompanied the Brahmins from Ahichatra, a Naga kingdom in the Uttar Panchala in the present day Uttarkhand and the adjacent areas of Nepal.The Brahmins include the Namboothiris and Tulu Brahmins who may have common origins at Uttarpradesh. The Nagas were considered low caste by the Namboothiris possibly because of their foreign and Naga origins. Even now most of the low castes of north India have Naga origins. The Naga as well as Scythians were Buddhists and not Hindus in the ancient times which contributed to the degradation. Nairs might have been Buddhists in the ancient times.

The Newars and Nairs

The Newars living in the adjacent areas in Nepal share many Nair customs including Matriarchy. The architecture of Newars closely resembles Naalukettu while the Temple architecture during the Nair era (1300-1800 ad) closely resembles Newa architecture. Kathakali resembles closely the dance drama of the Newars, [1][2] Nairs slightly Mongoloid appearance and yellowish skin may come from their Nepalese homeland where the Indo-Scythians Nairis who might have been originally settled down after the Saka invasion. Nativedravidan (talk) 14:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Migration of Nairs and Namboothiris to Uttarpradesh to Karnataka in 345 ad

As mentioned in Keralolpathi, the Karnataka inscriptions clearly mention that Kadamba king Mayuravarma who might have been of Brahmin descent, who ruled the Banavasi, Shimoga area in Karnataka, invited the Brahmins from Uttarpradesh to Karnataka in the year 345 ad. The Bunts of Karnataka and Nairs of Kerala could be the bodyguards recruited by the Namboothiris from the Sudra ranks.Nayara and Menavas are subcastes of the Bunts community of Karnataka clearly indicating Nairs are nothing but a sub clan of Bunts. (Bunt means bonded or enslaved or hired mercenaries).Matriarchy is practised by bunts, called Alia Santhana. The Tulunadu records such as Barkur inscriptions and Gramapadathi attest to the existence of Nairs in tulunadu prior to 800 a.d while kerala does not have any records.

Rashtrakuta invasions 752 ad to 973 ad, Nairs appear in Kerala

Kerala was overrun many times by the Rashtrakuta forces from 752 ad onwards. Rashtrakutas were of Scythian origins too. Whole of Kerala including the Ay kingdom was overrun as the Rashtrakutas went as far south as Kanyakumari. In 800 ad Namboothiris suddenly appeared in Kerala history while Nairs were mentioned for the first time in 1030 ad in the Thiruvalla shasanam fighting the invading Chola armies.In 949 ad the Chola king, Rajaditya himself was killed by the Rashtrakuta army at Thakkolam, making the Rashtrakutas masters of provinces north of Kaveri. Nairs could have been Rashtrakuta soldiers who occupied kerala in 800ad or little earlier.The second Chera kingdom might have employed Nairs as hired mercenaries.

The Cheras and Ays were Tamils not Nagas

The Chera kings were ancient Tamils belonging to Villavar clan which might be related to Billava and Illava (Ezhavs) and not Nairs. Kalaithokai an ancient sangha literature mentions the war between Dravidian rulers Villavars (cheras) and their allies Minavars (Pandyas), both of whom suffered a defeat at the hands of Nagas. After the defeat Villavars lost Madhya pradesh. Nagas are not only ethnically different from Dravidians and their sub clan Villavar Cheras but their sworn enemies. Nativedravidan (talk) 14:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Travancore kings are Ays Cheras not Nairs

Till 1314 when the Ravivarma Kulasekahara Sangramadheerans rule ended Travancore had Patriarchy strongly indicative that they were not related to Nairs. Travancore kingdom had five royal families 1)Venad (Kilperur),2)Desinganad(jayasimhanad)were both Ayvels. Both descend from the earlier Ayvel kingdom of Venad who are ethnic Tamil Ays not the Prakrit speaking Naga nairs. 3)Thirupapur and Chirava Swaroopams descend from the Ay kingdom who joined the Ay vels of Venad. Ays were ethnic Tamil Ayars. 5)Thiruvithankode Swaroopam was formed when the capital was shifted to Kalkulam/Padmanabhapuram.The Thrupappur Mutha Thiruvadi and the Chirava Moothavars were the actual rulers of Travancore not any Nairs. Till 16th century the Chera,Ay,Ay Vels and Pandiyan blood was present in the Travancore Royal family and they were direct descendents of the Venad Cheras. Nairs did mix with many Kshatriyas of Kerala. But the children of this marriages were given Thambi title which was used for only one generation (not hereditary). The people with Thambi title and Nair titles were not considered eligible to occupy the throne of Travancore. But the Nair mixture with the TRF and eventual acceptance of Matriarchy occured, when two princesses from the Kolathiri family (Chirakkal) was adopted around 1314. But Kerala Kshatriyas were different from Nairs though some elevated themselves to Samantha Kshatriya Status.But Nairs remained Sudras till Indias independence. The article should correct the statement that Travancore kings were Nairs. Nativedravidan (talk) 14:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Kavalappara Swaroopam

KAVALAPPARA PALACE

Kavalappara Palace is belong to the former ruler of Kavalappara,( North Kerala, India)Kavalappara Muppil Nairs. Kavalappara Muppil Nair was originally a ruling chief of Kerala. Like all other kings of Kerala he also claiming that the right to rule is got from the Cheraman Perumal the last Emperor of Kerala who is believed to converted to Islam or Buddhism and donated all his land to his relatives and Generals .

Kavalappara Muppil Nair was ruler of 96 village from Muttangal to Thottungal and from Bharathappuzha River to mandakkottukurasi near Shoranur. unlike other Kings of Kerala he use only the Muppil Nair sir name.The Junior members in the family known as name then Unni Elaya Nair, female members are known as Nethiyar.T he biggest pooram festival in Malabar used to take place at the Arayankavu Temple of Shoranur, the Temple was owned by Kavalappara Swarupam and the Deity is their “paradevatha”.The present Muppil Nair is Sathyanathanunni Muppil Nair. Shoranur Railway Junction bordering Cheruthuruthy.

Shoranur Railway Junction is very near to kerala kalamandalam a famous cultural school wherepeople from around the world come for learning different dance forms. History Shoranur municipality is named in revenue records as ‘Chiramannur’ and in railway records ‘Cherumannur’. Chiramannur was transformed into Shoranur. This name Chiramannur might have derived from the relation of this place to Bharatappuzha.

The history of Shoranur which is on the banks of Bharatappuzha is mainly related to the landlord feudal system. It is mainly the history of rise and fall of Kavalappara Swaroopam. Shoranur province was under the rule of Kavalappara Mooppil Nair. Kavalappara Swaroopam’s geographical limit was from Kaniyamburam canal in the east to Ongalloor in the west, Bharatappuzha in the south and Mundakkottukurussi in the north. Even though authentic records are not available about this feudal period some stories in the ‘Eithihyamala’ of kottarathil Sankunni gives us some idea about their rule. Only the oral history transcended through generations is available. he predecessors of Kavalappara Swaroopam belonged to the race of Karakkal Amma of Parayipetta Panthirukulam. If anybody from Mezhathur Agnihotri family dies Kavalappara Mooppil Nair does the death rituals and if anybody dies in the Kavalappara Swaroopam the family head of Agnihotri family does the death rituals. The origin of Kavalappara Swaroopam was at the Pallickal alias Pallithodi near Shoranur. One courageous Nair youth who was an expert in martial arts established his rule within the earlier mentioned geographical limits using his intelligence and capabilities and with the help of 999 (Aayirathilonnukuravu) Nair army became the feudal ruler. In the beginning Mooppil Nair was loyal to Valluvakkonathiri but afterwards he shifted his loyalty to the Samoothiri. Due to some misunderstanding Samoothiri turned against Mooppil Nair. He defeated Kavalappara Nair and took away the badges of sword and bucklers, the symbol of feudal rulers. It is said that a cunning young Nair went to Samoothiri’s Kovilakam and cleverly took back the symbol of authority and took asylum of Venadu Raja. Afterwards he took the post of Ayyazhippada Nair and with the backing of Nair army maintained his power. Mooppil Nair had also some rights in conducting certain customs like “Smarthavicharam” and ‘Yagaraksha” of Brahmin communities. Besides Kavalappara Mooppil Nair, the main mighty landlords were Brahmin landlords of Akkirathu Mana, Kozhisseri Mana, Thekkeppattu Mana, Desamangalam Mana etc.But Kavalappara had the absolute power to kill. During this period division of labour and discrimination based on caste,, dominated the society. It was only during the Second World War this region gradually got rid of these customs. Only upper caste people had the right to cover their body. Yogakshema sabha and later Yuva Jana Sankham fought against bad customs of the Brahmin community. Till Namboodiri act of Madras govt. came into existence only the marriage of the elder member of the Brahmin family was considered as legal. The activities of Yogakshema Sabha in Shoranur were led by Shri. Kummini Mana Raman Namboothiri. The famous social reformist late V.T.Bhattathirippad at his young age spent his time as the priest of Mundaya temple. It was from there he started his career as a literary person. Shoranur was also the field of activity of the famous communist leader and the first chief minister of Kerala, Shri. E.M.S Namboodirippad. Kavalappara Vayanasala (library) was established at the time of taking office of Kavalappara Appukuttanunni Mooppil Nair. He constructed a road to the Neelamala kunnu in front of Kavalappara palace and a bungalow for the stay of foreign guests. He also constructed many roads in and around Kavalappara palace. It was Mooppil Nair who first brought a motor car to this region. Kavalappara palace conducted a Kathakali Yogam and many famous Kathakali artists enacted their plays there. Kavalappara Narayanan Nair Asan became a scholastic artist of Kathakali through this kaliyogam.

Shoranur has the prestigious tradition of giving birth to many famous Kathakali artists. Moothedathu Namboodiri, Mundaya Venkidi Krishna Bhagavathar etc were from Shoranur. Mooppil Nair encouraged music, drama, painting, tholpavakkoothu, sports and games. He also concentrated his attention to the field of education. He started a school inside the palace for the education of the people belonged to the palace. Later it was upgraded to a school for educating upper castes. For the education of backward castes he started a Thiyya school and for the education of scheduled castes a panchama school at vadakkekkara. orest area in the name of Anthimahakalan kotta was used for the stay and practice of Nair army of Kavalappara Mooppil Nair. It was for their use Anthimahakalan temple and a 3 ½ acre wide Anthimahakalan kulam (pond) was constructed. For the use of low castes he constructed Kollanchery pond. Aryan kavu, Anthimahakalan kavu, Kayiliad kavu are also temples related to Kavalappara.

Even though the old history of Shoranur is the history of strong Kavalappara Swaroopam, after the Second World War the social reform movement strengthened here. The reforms in the agricultural sector and land reforms act cleared the remnants of the feudal system to a great extent. The changes from the old village atmosphere were brought by the entry of railway in Shoranur in 1860. In 1890 Cochin railway was established and Shoranur was connected through Cochin Bridge. Shoranur railway junction became one of the most important railway junctions in Kerala.Even before the railway junction was formed, thousands of people were working in the railway loco shed.There was also a railway police station. When the junction came into existence the workshop developed and with the beginning of Nilambur railway in 1920-21 once again the junction and workshop speedily progressed. t was with the arrival of Railway, Christian religious communities started to migrate here and they constructed a Roman Catholic Church. Muslims were not allowed to live in the kingdom of Kavalappara Nair. It was only in the middle of last century land was allotted to Kanikkavu Moideen kutty Musaliyar for his stay and for burying the body.

Samudiri could be the only Nair kingdom

When the Eradi (Nair)chieftain of Eranad defeated the Porlatathiri(Calicut)the Samudhiri kingdom was founded (in the 1300s). But the Samantha Kshatriyas of Nair origin also married among the Kshatriyas not Nairs and never used Nair titles.

Kolathiris are descendents of Mooshika and Ezhimala kings not Nairs

Kolathiris are the first to accept Matriarchy in the 12th century indicating Nair influence.

99% of Kerala Royals/Nadhuvazhis are Nairs

There is no doubt that Nairs are Kshathriyas if they are not then that means therewere no kshathriyas in kerala,because all the Kings/Rajas,Nadhuvazhis/Generals,90% of Warriors comes from Nair clans.except 3 Namputhiri Nadhuvahis(Ambalapuzhz,Edappaly,Venganadu) all others from north to south are/were nairs. very few Ezhavas/chovans practiced "kalaripayattu", they are chekovans but they fought "ankam" to find solutions for some disputes,first "kozhi ankam" then "alankam".but nairs like othena kurup fought for their self pride or pride.sambandham system is not a prostitution ,its help to protect the "marumakkthaya" system and family.mens were warriors and women protect the family intrest,if any of the women from nair cast polluted or if she engaged in any other relation that not accepted by the society would be killed by her relative and same in the case of her lover also.if any chovan/chandalan dare to come near to a nair lady he would be cut in to pieces(ref:-William Logan,Durato Burbose)Ravithampi 11:22, 11 November 2007 (UTC). Ravithampi 12:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Randuthara Achhan, Eruvazhinadu Nambiar,Karikkatidam Nayanar,Vengayil Nayanar,Nilesharam Raja,vadakara Vazhunore,Kottayam Swaroopam,Chirayakal Raja,Samoothiri,Beppur swaroopam,Mangatt Achhan,Para Nambi,Kavalappara swaroopam muppil nair,Kuthiravattm muppil Nair,Eralpad,Palakkadu Achhan,Valluvakonathiri,Kodungaloor swaroopam,Cheraneloor Karthvu,vellose nambiar,mappranam prabhu, Paliyath Achhan,Karappuram Kaimal,perumpadappu muppil(cochi raja),karappuram Kaimal,Anchi Kaimal,Thekkam koore,Vadakkan koore,Ranni karth, meenechil kartha,poojar raja, pandalam raja, kayankulam,madathumcoore,attingal,deshinganadu,Venadu etc are some of the main raja/nadhuvazhis of kerala, they all are comes from Nair clans and 90% of militia also comes from nairs after 9 years of rigierous training they are getting the title of a nair, then they have wright to kill their offenders. Whil

The transformation of the Naduvazhis who rose from the ruins of the Chera kingdom from Samantha Kshatriyas (ie Kshatriyas in name only, by which they got the title of Varma) to Malayala Kshatriyas ie poonool wearing pure Kshatriyas of the Lunar Dynasty (mostly i think) is comparable to the acquisition of Kshatriyahood by Shivaji in the 17th century. Shivaji fabricated a genealogy from the Udaipar Rajputs, the kings of Kerala created relations with the bygone Cheraman Perumal. The Brahmins of Maharashtra refused to accept Shivaji so he brought Gaga Bhatt the scholar from Benaras, the original few Namboodiris refused to fulfill the wish of the Rajahs of Kerala, and so the Saagara Dwijan Namboodiris were brought in (if the namboothiri website is to be believed, in 1617. The list of these 237 families is also available). The Thripappur Swaroopam brought about 180 of them and settled them at Thiruvalla (Thiruvalla Desi Pottimar) etc. Thus i personally feel that the modern day Kshatriyas of Kerala were originally from among the natives, probably the same as the Nairs who secured the status like Shivaji did. Those who could not afford these ceremonies and become pure kshatriyas, managed to get a superior status as Samanthans eg the Eradis, Pandalais, Unnithiris etc which was purely nominal. Manu

Travancore did try to retain their Ay and Chera lineage. But even in Travancore in 1314 two girls adopted from Chirakkal Swaroopam formed the Thavazhi (Matriarchy).It is not correct that all Samantha Kshatriyas descend from Dravidiann Tamil kings ie Chera Ays and Ezhimalai kingdoms. Most of the Samantha Ksahtriyas probably came with the Rashtrakuta invaders of the middle ages as they differ culturally and racially from most of the people from Tamil roots. It is easy to make out the Samantha Kshatriyas have Prakrit or Sanskrit root than Tamil. Thrippapur Swaroopam was originally an Ay dynasty till 1314 till the end of Sangramadheeran. In the later period Kshatriyas probably have Naga Scythian and Rashtrakuta blood which was considered low,Sudras even by their own Namboothiris. The Natives of Kerala were Tamil Villavars,Vanavar,Kurumbas, Panas etc Nativedravidan (talk) 15:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Nairs ascended from Kshatriyahood from the Naga Sutrahood

Nairs descend from north Indian Sutras ie Naga Scythians of Ahichatra, Newars of Nepal. Even now most of the lower castes of North India descend from the Buddhist Nagas. Because of their foreign origins and Buddhist faith Nairs were perhaps considered sutras by the Namboothiris as confirmed by the Keralolpathi. After 1300s Nairs mixed with royalty of kerala but not allowed to become kings especially at Travancore or Cochin. At Travancore and Cochin the Nair mixture made them ineligible to become kings. No king existed with Nair or Thampi title. Cheras and Ay and Ezhimalai kingdoms predate Nair arrival and Rashtrakuda invasions in 800 ad by many thousand years. The original Kshatriyas of Kerala including Cheras and ays were Tamils not Prakrit speaking Naga Nairs. But the original dyansties disappeared after 1500s and only Nair related dyansties with their tilt towards Prakrit and Matriarchy survived. Nativedravidan (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Nairs,Bunts and the Scythian origin

Here's some interesting reading on the scythian origin of some of the Indian castes. Also,it gives some interesting facts about the origin of Nairs and Bunts and concludes that both the communities are one and the same.In fact, Nairs are a sub-caste of Bunts since 'Nayara' (Nair) and 'Menava' (Menon) are the surnames of Bunt community as well. The Nairs are Bunts who migrated to Kerala from Tulunadu seems to be a more reliable version of the origin than they have migrated from Nepal.[3] Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 07:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

That source is a mess. It doesn't present a reasonable conclusion of anything really. Looking for a Scythian origin is illogical, based on no lead or clue. The genetics part of the site holds some facts, though it takes a huge leap of faith in stating Vellalars are of foreign origin. It also includes subjective descriptions of Nairs and Bunts, as if they have a particular distinct appearance, and I have seen enough of both to know that they are especially significant variations in physical appearance among people belonging to these communities. As for the common origin of Nairs and Bunts, that is likely though we have a source currently in the Nair article stating that anyway.Nambs (talk) 11:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There is nothing substantial to support the Scythian theory. But then the difference in physical appearance among the communities is very common in India. Even there are dusky skinned people among the Kochi settled Jews who never had any mix up. An intense observer could find enough factors to believe that Vellalars, Nairs and Bunts have been formed from a common race with similar historical and social background. All these communities are of pure Dravidian origin, they were rulers before the Aryan entry, they were warriors and rulers even after the Aryan entry though they were kind of shoehorned into the varna system as ‘Sudras’. Nairs were an offshoot of this Dravidian race than being immigrants from Nepal. All the arguments which consolidate the ‘Newar’ theory are very fragile. Firstly they both being matrilineal, there are many communities who were matrilineal among the south Indians, mostly the martial people. Second, the pagoda style was not just confined to Nairs, the houses of other well-off communities those days were also similar. Even the naga worship was prevalent among many communities including many ‘avarna’ sects. Lastly, does Nairs have mangolian features, well, I have not seen many with such features.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 16:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it is more accurate to see Nairs and Bunts as one and the same from a socio-religious and socio-anthropological perspective. However both these communities have to be seen as an admixture of several races each bringing with it and contibuting to the wider practices before blending in to the milieu to form what we see now. To therefore lean one a singular origin theory would be inappropriate. For example the Nayars in central and south Kerala have mixed with Vellalars of chola and pandya kingdoms extensively. The Nayars of Malabars have mixed with the Kadambas, hoysalas and chalukyas earlier on. In the process of the upward social mobility of the Nayar community, temporal and geographical ethnical mixtures that guarantee social ascension has always been resorted to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. I have found Nair sub-castes of North Malabar have a slightly different physical appearance to Nairs from other parts of Kerala, based on personal observance. The external inputs are different for each sub-caste or individual Nair family anyway.Nambs (talk) 14:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Did the Nambuthiris originate from the pastoral Aryans that entered Kerala from Tulunadu? Not all the families, certainly. I am sure Elamkulathu Manaykal Sankaran Nampoothiripadu (E M S ) would not have claimed so. He was dark skinned. Short.Not certainly a genetic trait of the tall, blonde, blue-eyed Aryan invaders (At lease the blue eyes seem to have been banished from the Indian Subcontinent, barring perhaps Kashmir and certain pockets in the Northwest)The genetic traits repeat at random. The fact that EMS had a dark skin points to a certain ancestor of his with that gene or set of genes that imparts melamine. It 's more likely that such an ancestor belonged to a non-Aryan tribe, unless one harks back to a period about fifty thousand years ago, when bushmen started migrating from their homeland in south western Africa.It's not difficult to observe that EMS had strong Dravidian roots, and so are many, many Nambuthiri Families. ( Mezhathur Agnihotri, the originator of Malayal Brahmins had mixed parentage,according to legend, being the eldest of twelve children born to a paraya mother and a Brahmin Father.( Parayipetta Panthirukulam). Modern studies conclude that the upper castes, viz. Brahmin, Varma and the Nairs are of identical genetics. (Not surprising, since the Y-Chromosomes of all the three are identical, viz. supplied by the Nambuthiri fathers!)So, it's an Aryan-Dravidian mixture all the way!.It's easy to see why, if one considers the elementary mechanics of power-sharing in the early and medieval periods.Brahminhood was conferred on the local priest by the Goonda whom the former helped anoint as the King.- a close parallel with the Divine Rights theory quoted by the European Monarchs.Annamma Agnihotri (talk) 10:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Nairs are Naga Scythians with roots in the Central asia and Nepal (Newar) , Kshatriyas are of Ay Chera origins and Namboothiris are from Ahichatra in Uttar Pradesh. They may have similarities in their genentics because of the recent mixture in the past 1000 yrs. But if proper genetic studies are done Nairs may reveal their NairiScythian genes while Namboothiris who followed Patriarchy and married among themselves may reveal the Aryan genes of the Uttarpradesh while the Kshatriyas may actually reveal some of their Dravdidian Ay and chera blood lines. The suggestion that Namboothiris descend from Protodravidians or Dravidians is absurd. All the Dravidians and Protodravian tribes underwent intolerable atrocities committed by the Namboothiri era.

Some Namboothiris looked like Protodravidians because

Sambandham was practiced by the native Dravidians discreetly. The Dravidian looks of Namboothiris cant come from the mixture of Dravidian ladies and Namboothiri males as the Namboothiris never accepted their own children from such an union. The Dravidian blood from Dravidian males reached Namboothiri ranks more from promiscuity than by accepted practices.

Kalaripayattu is a Dravidian art form not that of Naga Scythian Nairs

Kalam=Battle field, Ari = cut and Payattu is Training in ancient Tamil. Kalarippayattu is practised predominantly by Dravidian Villavar descendents like Illavar(Ezhava)Thiyya, Billava (Garadi)Nadar(Adi Murai or Varma Adi)and some other Tamil castes.Kalari Payittu originated in the ancient Pandyan kingdom which ruled from Southern Karnataka to Southern Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka.The experts an Proponents of Kalari Payattu were called Panikkars in the Pandyan kingdom. In the later periods some of these Panikkans or Panikkars joined the Nair ranks and taught them Kalarai Payattu.While some of the Panikkars joined the Ezhavas some converted to Christianity. Mara (Pandyan) Nadu Quilon has the maximum concentration of Panikkars. It is not imported from North India by Nairs or Bunts. It is not practised by any Naga people either.

Nativedravidan (talk) 14:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

In India everybody has Dravidian blood including Nairis

Though Nairs are Naga Scythians and Namboothiris are Aryans they might have acquired some Dravidian blood from the natives in the last 1200 yrs. All Indian of diverse origins including Anglo Indians have Dravidian blood and look dark.

Aryan features need not necesarily mean "Blonde and blue eyed". The highly controversial and politized term "Aryan" has always been used to refer to any respectable or honourable man by proto-indo-iranians (a culture preceding both the Vedic and Avestan cultures). It was people like Hirman Hirt and Gordon Childe who linked "blonde" and "Nordic" phenotypes to the term Aryan. Also both proto-indo iranian as well as the later "Vedic descendants" have mixed with other races before extreme ossification of the varna system. Therefore it should not be extremely surprising to find mixed phenotypes even in the so called forward communities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 11:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yup. I know a Brahmin family whose origins are in the NWFP in Pakistan and they are short and dark skinned. Even full blood "Vedic Aryans" who have preserved their genes through their caste status can exhibit dark skin and short stature, this doesn't have to indicate native South Indian genes.Nambs (talk) 12:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Aryans indeed are a tall, blonde, blue eyed race. To deny that would be feigning ignorance of Adolf Hitler's Teutonic pretensions. There'e a subtle caste system among the Europeans, where the slavs (poland, slovakia, croatia etc), latinos (French, Spanish and allied people) and the Germanic races ( Hungary, austria, germany.. together with the Nordic people of Sweden, Norway, Denmark et al ) form distinct groups.Blue eyes are very common among the latter.Hitler's third reich did not have a place for , say, Indians ( in spite of the Indo-Aryan claims!) except as servants. The master race , as per the Fuhrer's scheme of things, was to be the Teutons or the tall, blond blue eyed Aryans, the most beautiful people on earth, the gods themselves. (A cripple called Frederich Nietsche supplied the philosophy, and Richard Wagner composed the Third Reich's music.)While the Europeans squabble like this on racial purity, what chance does our EMS and other Dravidians stand? Brahmins are the priests in India. As someone has explained earlier. A hierarchy in caste has little to do with racial purity. Politics explains all.Thirumeni Thiruvegapuram (talk) 11:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The ‘Aryan’ term has nothing to do with the Nazi perception of ‘Aryan’. Here it just means the ‘vedic’ people. They were not Europeans but had a distinct physical appearance compared to the native ethnic sects. A small denomination of them would have come from the North, while the main chunk was formed from the native budhist groups. During the hindu-budhist ideological conflicts, many budhist monks accepted the dominance of the hindu crusaders like Adi Sankara, though many were burned in the austerity fire. These budhist monks later formed a part of the hindu priesthood thus adding the native flair to the priest community. The Nairs, though part of the native sect were kings, lords and warriors who basically belonged to the ‘Naga’ sect and had a lighter complexion compared to the native ethnic groups. The ambalavasis and the varmas are nothing but a part of this ‘Naga’ group. The Ezhavas and Harijans constituted the pure Dravidian representation of the society. Similarly, the Christians in Kerala also comprise of the ‘syrian’ group who migrated in the early centuries and majority by native Ezhavas and Harijans. While the Muslims have almost similar race mix up, replacing the ‘syrian’ group by ‘arabs’. So in kerala, almost every community represents multiple race mix up except for the ezhavas and harijans .Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 14:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Who were the Vedic people? Were they the people that lived during the times the Vedas were written? Or , were they the people who wrote the vedas. There's a distinction. In the case of the former, Aryans were different from the Dasyus or Dasaa, the people that the Aryans claimed to have displaced from their homeland in the "Sapta Sindhu". The Dasyus were driven east,-and south?- to be re-conquered by the Aryans advancing down the plains either side of the Ganga, clearing forests. ("khandava Dahana" , the episode in Mahabharata describes the eviction of Naga kings from Khandava so that the Kuru Clans-Pandava princes- could establish "Indraprastha"). Thus the Nagas and other Dasyus were different from the Aryans. One does not refer to them in the same vein.It may be added that the numerous castes we have today should have sprung forth from the intercourse between the Aryan ans non-Aryan races, with the former having the upper hand most of the time.(Research is needed in this instance, because the maxim that "might is right" applied here too.!One cannot rule out the possibility that the non-Aryan chieftains must have lusted after the fair Aryan women, and won them and had had progeny. No wonder the scriptures- mouth piece of the Aryans- condemn such unions as passage to the nether world.!)Thirumeni Thiruvegapuram (talk) 08:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The Aryans wrote the Vedas, and one refere, at times, to the Aryans as the Vedic people by the way nairs are genetically very diverse.. in the TISSUE ANTIGENS journal SEPTEMBER 2006...i remember reading that among all the malayali populations the maximum allelic diversity in HLA is found among nairs... and nairs share alleles with populations from germany and belgium!edgar thurston in his book- castes and tribes of southern india too has remarked that immigrant populations from karnataka and tamil nadu have taken the nair identity..for more respectabilty he presumes.about the scythian origin of the nairs, well a lot of communities in india claim scythian origin-e.g jats, gujjars, rajputs etc..and nobody is really sure who the scythains really were- caucasoid or mongoloid/.... there is an old article ' the scythian origin of the nairs'- raman menon c malabar qtrly review june 1902... but god alone knows where it is available!nairs and bunts have a lot of similarities culturally and physically, and here is an important point to mull over if the aryan brahmin's blood is responsible for the nair becoming taller and fairer as claimed by some authors then how come many nairs are taller and generally as fair as the nambuthiris.. Vivwiki (talk) 13:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well we can conclude that there is no Scythian origin based on the only fact that we all know Nairs do not all have a single group origin, there have been different inputs, and the fact that the Scythians themselves are a blurred group. I think the Kodavas are nearest group to the Nairs who genuinely claim Scythian origin. Among any community in Kerala, I believe the Nairs show the most variation in physical appearance. "then how come many nairs are taller and generally as fair as the nambuthiris" is not particularly true as we discussed that not all Namboothiris exhibit these phenotypes and there are a significant number of Nairs who are realtively tall and fair and there are a significant number who are short and dark, also short and fair and tall and dark phenotypes, with some Nairs not looking too much different to a mixed blood Australian Aboriginal and some looking strikingly north Indian or Middle Eastern.Nambs (talk) 03:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Really interesting. I think the racial mix up among nairs could also be attributed to the fact that, many brave people who were well versed in arms and kalari were also added to the ‘Nair’ group by the native kings. The kings in the malabar used to bargain with the portugese and dutch for more trade favors by projecting the strength of ‘Nair soldiers’ they possess.

Nairs are indeed Nagas Scythians who are culturally and ethnically different from Dravidians.What makes Nairs Nairs is their Scythian blood which gives them fair complexion and sharp features. Keralolpathy correctly points out that Nairs are nothing more than the Sudra.

At this point we have to remember that Keralolpathy is nothing but a creation of Namboothirees to get the high level in society and to degrade Nairs. Keralalopathi is totally foolish. Chattampiswamikal states this clearly in his "Praacheena Malayalam"

The term Bunta means Bonded. The Buntas or Bunts of Tulunad had the Nayara as a subcaste. Nairs may descend from the Newars or the other Nairi people of the Uttarpradesh Nepal border.It is true that Dravidian Pillais and Panickers joined Nairs.Otherwise Nairs dont have any other blood other than Naga Scythian ancestry.So the statement that Nairs are Multiethnic is not relevant.

Pillais,Panickers and Kurups may have Dravidian origins. Pillai is a title of the Kalabhra (Vaduga)lords who occupied most of the Kerala and Tamil Nadu who declared themselves hereditary owners,Pillais (father to son), of the land in the fourth century. The Tamil Panars,Kurumbars and Vellalars who had been reduced to become serfs of the Kalabhras later mixed with them to form the Pillai community.

Panicker is a Pandyan title for teachers and proponents of Martial arts.Some Panickers who joined the Nairs might have taught Kalaripayyattu.Nadappanickars remained Pandyan while some Panickers among the Ezhavas taught them Kalaripayyattu while some Panickers joined the Syrian Christians of Maranadu branch.

Kurups might descend from the Kuruba caste of Karnataka. Nairs might have mixed with them on their stay in Karnataka between 345 ad from the Period of Kadamba king Mayuravarma to Rashtrakuta invasions of 752 ad on Kerala.

Nativedravidan (talk) 12:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

There are many disconnects here. Firstly, Pillai and Panicker are not separate caste names, they are very much a ‘status’ name or position bestowed by the rulers. There are many Christians and even Muslims who have this title. The other Pillai being the vellalas and chettiars, they are a separate community altogether and even today they generally don’t mix with the Nairs. If Nair Pillais were converted Tamils, how come there is still a strong vellala Pillai presence in the southern districts. Similarly, Panicker was another title given to Kalari instructors and there are many Ezhavas having this title in southern part of Kerala. However, Kurup is a title which was given only to the Nair chieftains and soldiers and it is not restricted to Southern part of Kerala. Even the stalwart of northern ballad ‘Thacholi Othenan was a Kurup warrior from the northern tip of Kerala. Hence, the Nair pillais, panickers and Kurup were of same Nair lineage. Mannadiars were Cholas who later got absorbed into the Nair fold and they followed patriarchy.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 17:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

good to see so many views regarding this topic!...personally i think communties claim a scythian origin for respectablity, and it is highly unlikely that the scythians penetrated beyond north west india...but the truth is that not only nairs but malayalis as a whole are a very heterogenous group...in b.s guha's racial map of india 1944-the area covering present day kerala is populated by the following racial groups- paleo-mediterranean, true(european) mediterranean,oriental(arab) mediterranean, proto- australoid, proto- nordic, and negrito groups...although he does not assign the communities to any particulaR race my guess is it should be like the following- 1) nambuthiris and nairs-predominantly true mediterranean, with some paleo mediterranean and proto nordic admixture. 2)ezhavas-mainly paleo mediterranean with SOME true mediterranean and proto nordic aDMIXTURE especially in kannur and tellicherry.and also proto australoid. 3)muslims- the same componentsas above with arab mediterranean subtype too. 4) christians-the syrian christians would be more look like nambuthiris and nairs while the latin may be more like the ezhavas. 5) dalits and tribals -predominantly proto austaraloid with some negrito especially kadar of kochi. of course friends this is only a generalisation and there may be differences of opinion... ideally this should be on the ' malayalee page'... i could have uploaded the aforesaid racial map but i dunno which site i have to go!.... by the way what about vaniya nairs? we could start a new thread about them!Vivwiki (talk) 09:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The Syrian Christians from what I've seen overseas exhibit largely proto-Australoid phenotypes.Nambo (talk) 01:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Syrian Christians do have Proto Dravidian and Australoid blood especially in the Kottayam and Pathanamthitta region. Syrians are basically Semitic people who taled a form of Aramic with roots from Babylon, Karbala(Iraq),Persia, Damascus(Syria)and Antioch in the Turkey. The Scythians and the Syrian (Assyrian)christians could have occupied the Parthian and Sassanid kingdoms before 2000 yrs. While the Scythians travelled through the land to North India and Newar Ahichatra areas (then to Kadamba kingdom, Banavasi (345 ad) and Tulunad and reached kerala in 800 ad, Syrians took a sea route and reached Kerala directly. Some Syrians are Dolicocepalic like Scythian Nairs both of whom often exhibit Persian like features. Both might have been citizens of the Parthiankingdom north of Iran 2000 yrs ago.

Nativedravidan (talk) 12:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I second what Keraleeyan says, the part of my family with the tharavad at the northernmost reach of Nairs in Kerala (middle Kasaragod district) some of whom speak Tulu, do not mix with Brahmins, at least in more recent history, and are significantly fair (even by North Indian standards) though short with uncommon though not rare occurrences of green and other light eyes, whereas the part of my my family with Varma and Brahmin blood from Kannur are overall marginally darker, though taller. I don't know whether this suggests something like Namboothiris have some native Keralite blood or that Bunts and some Nairs have a preserved origin separate from other native communities, or that some Nairs are purely Bunt and have been adopted into the Nair caste.Nambs (talk) 03:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The words Aryan,Eural, Europe , Aries ( referring to a set of mountains in Central Asia), Iran etc have identical etymology.Modern day Iranians, and, for that matter, several Iraqi tribes resemble Europeans. This is not mere coincidence. The identical physique, complexion and color of the eyes - despite the contrast in climate- point to migrations having taken place recently. A few thousand years would not wring out changes in geness for adapting to the environment. Thus Mammooty's height and Mohanlal's swarthiness are not unexpected. The Arabs who crossed the seas brought in Iranian (Aryan ) genes.Mamooty's forefathers could have been from among these Arabs, while Mohanlal could have inherited the Dravidian Y-Chromosomes from his Nambuthiri ancestors. ( One does not discount that Mamoouty does not have blue eyes, and Mohanlal has a fair complexion.Genetic traits repeat at random, and produce permutations and combinations in a Genetic Laboratory such as Kerala).Thirumeni Thiruvegapuram (talk) 04:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The Arabs are not Aryans. A sizeable piece of the Arab population is dark. The Iranians are Persians and have a totally different cultural and ethnic identity from that of the Arabs. Iranians are Aryan, that is, Indo-European, while the Arabs, as is well known, are Semitic, so ethnologically there's a definite disjunction. During the islamization of Iran, the original Iranians migrated to India and settled in many places including Kannur. They were mainly followers of Zoroastrianism and Baha’ism etc. They are a powerful, intelligent and beautiful people who never used to mix with other ethnic groups. Also they never used to convert people forcibly to their religion. The Muslims of Kerala used to engage in wedlock with the Arabs and not the Persians.

.Keraleeyan

I said "the Arabs who crossed the seas brought in Iranian (Aryan ) genes". In other words the Arabs functioned as the medium for gene dissemination. There are dark and fair Arabs, I agree.The advent of Islam found them spreading out to Persia, and displacing the Zorashtrians. ( V S Naipaul in "Among the Believers " presents a portrait of the remnants ). Winner takes all a la Hemingway, and spread of Islam implied additions to the Arab gene poolThirumeni Thiruvegapuram (talk) 09:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I think to pursue any Nair-Scythian connection would be intially started by finding more Naga-Nair links. If anyone could find more sourced material concerning Naga links/relations or Naga origins of Nairs, that would be interesting and of use to the article.Nambs (talk) 03:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Add to the list of surnames

Nayyar is also an alternate spelling of Nair. Probably arose from people mispelling the name during goverment censuses. I'm sure noone would disagree, as they probably have met people spelling their last names in such a way in Kerala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.134.225.134 (talk) 14:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The History of Nairs

It seems everyone wants to re write the history of nairs. So much is the depth of despair and the inferiority complex they carry for generations. Though no nair wants to carry any luggage of the past and are mostly foreward looking, every one else have an axe to grind. It is pathetic. - SGN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.42.21.153 (talk) 12:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Would you mind being specific? Who is desperate? Who, do you think carried inferiority complex for generations? When does one feel inferior or superior?What are the criteria you are measuring against?What sort of luggage did the Nairs bring in, from the "past"?Have you confirmed that no Nair wants to carry any luggage?How do they intend to travel, then? have you confirmed that every one else has an axe to grind? Why is it so? Where did they collect the axe from?And why should it be pathetic?Pulayan Punchapadam (talk) 08:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You are free to form your own opinion, but not to take liberty with facts. I think the article has both tones, both pro and against. But as Wiki Guidelines points out, we are informing the coming generations of a much more secular, impartial history. I hope that will be taken into consideration (Niketsundaram1977 (talk) 23:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC))

New material

I have added an Infobox to standardize this article with others of its type (Nambudiri, Iyer, etc.) and it presents information neatly. Before deleting anything, please discuss in the talk pages. 58.108.47.114 (talk) 07:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Good work. Please join wiki with a user name. It will be better Manu —Preceding comment was added at 12:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Kolathiri kingdom and Travancore accepted Matriarchy (? Nair influence )in 13 and 14th centuries

Kolathunadu which had a direct lineage from Tamil Ezhimalai kings of Sangha age and Mooshaka dynasty were Patriarchal indicating they were originally different from Nairs. Kolathiris adopted Matriarchy somewhere around the mid 13 th century indicating nair influence or Rashtrakuta influence if not blood. The Chirakkal Dynasty could be the first Nair mixed dynasty of Kerala. In 1314 perhaps the patriarcha Venad Chera-Ay dynasty of Ravivarma Kulasekhara came to an end.Two princesses, Attingal and Kunnumel princesses adopted from the Kolathu Nadu were adopted into the Venad Kingdom. The Attingal queens'sons became the kings in the later periods of the Matriarchal Travancore Royal Family. Why was two princesses from distant Kolathu Nadu (who perhaps were not Cheras)could be due to Nair influence.And thus the ancient Tamil Chera Patriarchal lineage came to an end in 1314 ad. However the laterday kings did not claim to be of Nair origin. The first king Veera Udayamarthandavarma added the title Veera Pandya perhaps of his paternal dynasty. The Travancore kings still were selected from the five clans who descended from earlier Ay and Venad Chera dynasties ie Thirupappur, Chirava, Desinganadu,Thiruvithankodu and venad indicating atleast the fathers of the kings are from earlier Ays and Cheras and not Nairs. Infact the son of the King who marries a nair lady, becomes ineligible for throne.

Nativedravidan (talk) 14:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Travancore and Kolathiri

The article states that the Travancore and Kolathiri rajahs had nair origins (which means kingdoms like elaydath swaroopam, kayamkulam, kollam etc as they are/were all branches of travancore). This view is very common and even the namboothiri.com website gives detailed information with a 17th century date (1617AD) stating that a class of Namboodiris called Saagara Dwijans (237 families) were brought by the Kolathiri so that he could wear a poonool. Records show the title of Varma being used from a very early date, but in those days Malayala Kshatriyas were known as Samantha Kshatriyas (dis is from the Travancore manuals) which means khstriyas in name only. Then half of these were taken by travancore and came to be known as Thiruvalla desi pottimar. Manu —Preceding comment was added at 12:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Keralas Caste system : Rashtrakuda verses Dravidian

During the Nair dominant era ie 1300 to 1800s the Rashtrakuta people with Northern (Prakrit and Sanskrit speaking )Naga Scythian Nairs and Namboothiris gained ascendency over the Tamil and Dravidian People.The caste system of Kerala Most of the low castes of Kerala during Nair era are Dravidians.The hostility between the indigenous Dravidians against the Rashtrakutas from Karnataka ie Nairs and Namboothiris led to the segegation of the two ethnicities.Dravidians were required to keep distance from the Aryans and Naga Scythian Nairis, which inturn was deviced to ensure the safety of the invaders.The Nairs a North Indian Sudra from Uttarpradesh was elevated as Sath Sudras while the Dravidians who were ruling Kerala more than ten thousand years were reduced to Sudrahood. The resulting Caste Hierarchy in the Nair era (1300 to 1800 ad)

1)The Aryan Namboothiris 2)The Kshatriyas (with a Nair Namboothiri and Rashtrakuta mixture) 3)Naga Scythian Nairs 3)Dravidians 4)Proto Dravidians

While many Dravidian castes such as Villavar the Caste of Chera king himself and Vanavar (another Chera villavar caste) completely disappeared, Illavars (another Villavar caste),Valluvar (astronomers, feudal lords), Panar (Aristocracy in Chera times),Kurumbar(Aristocrats protectors of temples)Koravars(chieftains of Hills)Malayar(princes of hills)were reduced to low caste status. Caste system of Kerala is not based on the Varna Concept because, Nairs themselves were considered Sudras by the Namboothiris. North Indian Buddhist Nagas who are ethnically identical with Nairs were reduced to lower status much earlier to Scythian invasion of India.It is more comparable to Turkish invasion and British rule in which the invaders became Sahebs. Foreigners belonging to foreign religeons including Jews and Syrian Christians and Portuguese were allowed to keep slaves and even private army in Nair era.

Nativedravidan (talk) 12:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Turkish invasion favoured Nair ascendency at 1300s

At 1300s when all the Dravidian kingdoms of the South India collapsed by the Turkish invasion headed by Malik Kafur. All the Traditional Dravidian aristorcracy was exterminated. Hoysalas,Chola,Pandya nobility became extinct. Nairs were perhaps spared because of their non Dravidian origins. Travancore king Kulasekhara Ravivarma Sangramadheeran did not help his Pandyan relatives during muslim invasion. Instead he occupied the ancient Pandyan capital Tenkasi and established a principality called Mullinadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion he became Tribhuvana chakravarthy master of Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Immediately after the Muslim invasion the Nairs replaced the the Dravidian Patrilineal aristocracy of Kerala including that of Kulasekhara Ravivarma (in 1314) with their own Matrilineal kingdoms and Principalities. Samuthiris ascendency by defeating Porlatathiri followed suit. Matriarchy was widely accepted by the aristocracy leading to the disappearance of the Tamil Patrilineal aristocracy (Ezhimalai,Chera,Pandya and Ay aristocracies). Since the Muslims had exterminated all the Dravidian aristocracies outside Kerala the Dravidians inside kerala could not help either. Gradually the language after 1300s included Prakrit of Nairs and Sanskrit of Namboothiris leading to the evolution of Sanskritised Malayalam. The Dravidian art forms disappeared. The Dravidian temples (Pyramidal stone temples) were replaced by Nepalese architecture ie Pagoda like roofed structures. Nativedravidan (talk) 15:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

diverse views about the history of nairs

there have been so many many diverse views views about the history of the nairs, but all seem by and large conjectural!...lets just have a look at them 1) related to newars of nepal. 2) scythian origin( similar to the nairi people of central asia) 3) similar to bunts-this looks very plausible. 4)rashtrakuta origin. the newar theory has not only been propounded by dr zacharias thundy, but by other authors as well, however looking for mongolian features in nairs is akin to looking for a needle in a haystack.it woould be more sensible to think that the newars mere modified racially by the tibetan influx into nepal. the scythian theory has also been bandied about, if nagas were scythian then nairs may have a scythian origin, also the nairis being the ancestors of nairs may be a little too far fetched,as there is hardly any evidence of a migration from central asia to kerala ...anybody has any reference for this article.?... the bunt theory cannot be discounted at all... there are lot of similarities between bunts and nairs, physically and culturally....and tulu and tulunad is also very similar to malayalam and kerala respectively...in kasargod the difference between bunts and nairs really blurs ,that is if there is any difference at all! finally about the rashtrakuta influence...we really dont know if the rashtrakutas overran kerala and if nairs were enrolled in the rashtrakuta army..howverthere is some evidence that nairs were soldiers in the vijaynagar empire... a look at proto historical sources like the keralolpathi is also very interesting for eg.. it decribes nairs as progeny of nambuthiris with deva, gandharva and rakshasa women... we can safely say that nambuthiris and devas were aryans culturally and rakshasas may have been dravidians, but what about gandharvas?... could they have been the scythian link we are on the lookout for?... interestingly the keralaolpathi was dismissed as " a farrago of nonsense" by william logan who wrote the malabar manual ! tulu nadu records suggest that the kadamba king mayauravarma bought nairs and nambuthiris from the north and settled them in karnataka. and like we all know during the chera period in kerala there is no mention of nairs..so it is possible the community took shape only after the chera empire declinedVivwiki (talk) 05:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Caste and Race

It's important to remember that Nairs aren't made up of a homogenous ethnic group. You will find differences in culture, traditions, marriage customs and language styles from Kanyakumari to Kasaragod. Just like Ezhavas and Thiyyas are not exactly the same people, Malabar Nairs, Cochin Nairs and Travancore Nairs have different histories. Nair is the term used to class the groups of people who had a common occupation and social standing. The Travancore Nairs share certain cultural aspects with Tamil people, which is not seen as much in Malabar. The Malabaris (including Thiyyas) have customs such as Nagapuja and Theyyam which is mirrored by the Tulu community who live amongst them and across the border in Karnataka. The similarities between Bunts and Malabar Nairs are staggering, and it would not have been impossible for the two groups to have intermarried in the past (Bunts are matrilinear and were a landed caste in parts of Kasaragod state). Physical features is always hard to use as an indicator of origin (there are Malabaris who resemble Tamils and South Keralites who resemble Tuluvas), however in Malabar, the Tulus, Konkanis (Indo Aryans) and Malayalis are indistinguishable. In South Kerala it is said that the Malayalis have closer resemblance with Tamilians, however this isn't universal.

The caste system in Kerala was infamous for its rigidity (refer to the pages of talk pages devoted to discussing Nair, Ezhava position in caste system). I have also added a section on the role that Nairs played in upholding the caste system in Kerala, as ugly as it might be, it still needs to be placed in the article. Certainly it has more importance in the article than the ramblings of the facetious relationship between Nairs and Newars.

Before someone tries to point out that Nairs were untouchable Sudras for Brahmin Nambudiris and not "Malayala Kshatriya", and tries to remove the infobox and the information regarding "Nairs, Nambudiri Brahmins and Malayala Kshatriya" as related ethnic groups, please try to find out more information about the thousand year Nair ritual of Sambandham, discontinued only a century ago, which meant that Nairs, Varmas and Brahmins became blood cousins (hence shared ethnicity), regardless of whether the cousins shared the same rights as each other.Jammfly (talk) 08:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

rajputs and nairs

like nairs rajputs also comes to the political central stage around 6th 7 th centuries AD,and most of the historians agreaing that they are descendants from huna and other invaders from western side,they comes as waves in different time and became hinduised and fill the vaccum of vedic ksahtriyas.(vedic kshtriyas fought aganist brahmin superiority and most of the became followers of budha and jina,the two kshatriyas that oppose brahmin superiorty) we can see that a good portion of indian royalties and warriors are got the kshtriya title much later and.kings like Chandra gupta,Mauriyas,maratha kings like Bhonsale,Scindia,gakewad, mysoor kings,vijayanagra kings ,Yadava kings of karnataka,hoyisala etc are not kshatriyas and they got the kshtiryahood much later,this is same in the case of kerala also the present day royals of Kerala are comes from Nair clans, after doing "hiraniyagarpha yaga" and showering gold to brahmins some of the got Kshatriyahood and brahmins connect them to soorya vamsha/chandravamsha etc .nodoubt that Nairs ruled kerala for 1000 years and they are the first warriors who defeat a forigin force in india(Dutch), and the first aganist brtish(under ettuveetil pillamar nair warriors of" anchuthengh" attacked the brtish fort in attingal/anchuthengh..

hi everybody,in the main article under theories of origin,i noticed a theory connecting rajputs of bundelkhand to nairs,citing sansrit texts... these statements require a dependable reference,.. faling which i suggest that they may be deleted... otherwise we nairs will be soon known as a people eager to connect ourselves to all and sundry!

Absolutely! There is no such reference whatsoever in any of the books between Rajputs and Nairs. If Nairs were Rajputs, the brahmins would have had no hesitation in accepting them as aryan kshathriyas. Nair origin is more towards a possible Naga-Scythian connection than anything else. This is clear from the fact that both the Nagas (they themselves might have had Scythian admixture) and other Scythian settlers were treated as ‘Sudras’ by the Brahmins. However, there are exceptions here also as in the case of Njavakattu Kartha who ruled Meenachil Taluk (Palai).They apparently had a Rajput origin and their karanvar had a surname as 'Simhar'. This is referred in Kottarathil Sankunni authored 'Ithihyamala' . They were later annihilated by the invading Travancore army and their small state was annexed to Travancore.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 07:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Njavakattu Karthas are also members of the Kshatriya Kshema Sabha as opposed to the NSS because of their rajput origin. So rajputs were treated as kshatriyas in kerala also. Manu —Preceding comment was added at 13:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

thanks to both keraleeyan and manu for that piece on the njavakattu karthas... it is possible that some of the malayala kshatriyas have a north indian origin, however most of them are nairs who got eleveted to kshatriyahood thanks to their services to the brahmins... there is an interesting parallel with the jats of north west india who must be the best fighters in the subcontinent but have a inferior status to rajputs just because they are not servile to brahmins!Vivwiki (talk) 16:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Maluvakon was the only Rajput of Kerala

who ruled from the Keezh Mala Nadu that is Pala Kottayam area under the earlier Pandiyan era. Pandiyan Nedumchadayan was married to a Malwa princess in the 800 ad which led to his adoption of the Vaishanavite belief. Njavakattu Karthas might descend from the Malwa clan of Kshatriya Rajputs.

Some Scythians were Rajputs other Scythians were Sudras

Some Scythians who mixed with the ruling clans of Rajputana were considered Kshatriyas. But numerous other Scythians and Paradhas or Parthians Pardhi ) and even the Nairi Newars were considered Sudras. Nairs though Scythians were considered Sudras because of the same reason.Most of the Nagas were reduced to Sudra status in the North India may be because of their Buddhist adherence. Even now Nagas form the most of the lower stratum in the North India. Nairs were lucky enough to migrate to South India where they had an upward mobility in the caste system. Nativedravidan (talk) 15:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC) Nativedravidan (talk) 15:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Adding new info

I see that there has been a lot of speculation regarding the origin of Nairs on the talk page. However, we cannot had OR (original research) to the article. The article as it is, is lacking in references. We cannot add speculation and hypotheses regarding the origin of Nairs without proper citations. --vi5in^[talk] 18:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well..but then the theories which are included in the article like the Newar theory per se is not cited anywhere except for the article from Dr.Zacheria (absolutely without any historical proof).What authenticity Dr.Zacharia thundy’s article has got? So why not remove that as well? Except for the bunt theory based on the Manual of Madras Administration and Naga theory, based on historical references and ancient Tamil texts, nothing holds good here. Kerololpathi is an extremely awful piece of imagination and any observation based on that should also be put in the dust bin.Keraleeyan

well actually,there is some info on the newar connection besides dr thundy's article... abook on history of nepal by messrs bajracharya and co.there is also a book" the todas" by w.h.r rivers which connects todas to nairs and nambuthiris. there is also a book- " a short history of kerala" in which the author k.v.k ayyar connects nairs to the arrathas and bahlikas of the era of the mahabharatha...so some literary evidence exists and that aratta theory gives a lot of support to the scythian origin theory because the arratas were possibly a saka tribeVivwiki (talk) 16:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The Bahlika theroy apparently is very close to nairs, they have been recorded as the early settlers from beyond hindukush (known as 'gandhara' in ancient history/purana which is today's Afghan) and Kamboja (central asia)."The Bahlikas have been equated to Mlechchas in the later Brahmanical literature. There is a distinct prophetic statement in the Mahabharata that the mlechcha kings of Sakas, Yavanas, Kambojas, Bahlikas etc will rule unrighteously in Kali yuga. ". According to Jean Przylusky, the Bahlika (Balkh) was an Iranian settlement of the Madras who were known as Bahlika-Uttaramadras. Even there is a version that the Kurus themselves were Bahlikas. Panchali in Mahabharatha had many husbands. Even Kunthi, mother of pandavas, had more than one husband. Per their tradition, many young men used to marry a single girl.The bahlika king participated in the mahabharatha war, leading one of the many akshowhini (division) for the Kurus.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 05:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In short, the Kurukshetra war was between Kuttappan Nair and Thankappan Pillai. Please take note, back benchers! Thomas Kutty Thannickal (talk) 12:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL!Nambo (talk) 11:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Taking a cue from one of the contributors who hailed VKN as a great Nair writer, I tried reading "Kaavi" ("saffron", literally; meant to be a dig at the spiritualists)by VKN. What a bore! Perhaps, it's one of his later books. Champion of the Nair cause, indeed he is, notwithstanding his antagonism towards kinsmen from South Kerala.The book, as I mentioned before, is exceedingly boring. I was surprised someone had projected him as the only writer from Kerala worth a "Nobel"!!!. Enthusiasm for Nairs should not make one mislead one's fellowmen like this. I had to finally re-read "The Joke" by Milan Kundera( Nobel prize winning Cheq writer) to atone for the sin of wasting time on "Kaavi" Kazhakootathu Pillai (talk) 10:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

In general, the writings here were carefully worded to assert the superiority of the Nair community. (This implies, at once, that there was a need to assert. In other words, others should be reminded, constantly, to re-examine any notions to the contrary that they have; they are exhorted to set aside such notions, and agree, unconditionally, to the superiority of the Nairs.Obviously , people are reluctant to give credence to tales of Nair Superiority per se. Hence the need for assertions, constant reminders. )Inconvenient references from history are deliberately avoided. Practices such as "Sambandham" that provided the Nairs with little else than Nambudiri genes,- the progeny of such unions being condemned to a subordinate social status vis a vis their fathers!- are glorified.Nairs, indeed, must have been a proud ,martial race. But the history of Kerala spanning the last four/five centuries does not do them proud. It's matter of curiosity that a proud warrior race should have been playing second fiddle to the temple priests, to the extent that the latter were left scot free to sow their wild oats among Nair women Pandan & Maniyan (talk) 08:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Thats an excellent question, one that I'm confused about as well. The only theory I've heard which can provide an answer is that Nairs entered Kerala with Brahmins as (Brahmin) bodyguards. However the Megasthenes mentioning of them prior to Kerala Brahmin mention conflicts with this theory and there isn't much documentation to support it.KBN (talk) 09:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course, there should be conflicts within such a theory. Do not tell us the Brahmins had the audacity to meddle with their body guards' women, and still were sure their own bodies would be guarded. The "Bodyguards" certainly would not relish guarding the Brahmins while in the act of copulation with their own women.So, they may be other reasons.Pandan & Maniyan (talk) 09:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Sambandham was a culturally accepted practice, so to negate the theory based on that isn't logical.KBN (talk) 11:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Randu poochakal undaayirunnuuuu... onnu PANDAN.. mattethu MANIYAN... avar adukkalayil kadannooo... nalla appathinte vasana...Kochu Thomman Kottappadi (talk) 10:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well this subject has been discussed many times before. But just to clarify. Read Travancore State Manual by Velu Pillai and the book of Sreedhara Menon. The Nairs were in Kerala before the Brahmins. However with the wave of Brahmin evangelisation, hinduism secured a hold in Kerala. Temples and Brahmins were granted tax exemption, resulting in Nairs and other ryots handing over their lands to them on Kanapattom basis (well when there were taxes on things like moustaches, the ryots were only happy to escape land taxes this way). Thus Brahmins became landlords. For their own security, the Nairs encouraged Sambandhams with their women. Besides, the Nairs were convinced they were Sudras. Naturally the infusion of Brahmin blood was for them, they were made to believe, a matter of great pride. Brahmins managed to become king makers practically. They married princesses and "purified" the future kings, who were naturally very well disposed towards their "sacred" fathers and the Brahmins secured a greater hold in politics. Similarly with the Nairs. Besides u hint that Sambandhams were tantamount to concubinage. They were informal marriage, elements of concubinage, as defined today, and marriage were present. I again state, a sociologist cant judge customs of the past through the lens of the present customs. In those days it was normal in the matriarchal society. The history writers have always stated that however shocked they were with the polyandry, dress etc of the nair women, it didnt mean they were unchaste or characterless. Times change, systems change. Big deal if the Brahmins considered sambandhams as concubinage. It makes no real difference now. Sambandham was a good way to keep the Nairs under control and they succeeded in that. My own temple Thanthri tells me how brahmin-nair alliances were to keep a connection and control over the latter. And by the way, fathers didnt really matter in those days. A Brahmins Nair son was just as legitimate as his Brahmin son. It is where the legitimacy mattered that the question is. For the Namboodiri father, his Marumakkathayam following, lower caste son was not heir, who had a place in his mothers house. Sambandham children were not illegitimate. Look at the marumakkathayam society without any present day strings attached. It is no big deal. Manu

That still doesn't explain what motive Nairs had to respect these supposedly foreign Hinduism introducing Brahmins to the point of being subservient to them after a history of pride and being at the figurative top of Kerala society.KBN (talk) 23:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

When you read history, you must try to interpret things from a perspective relevant to that particular age. Having said that, your yardstick based on the current socio-political values may not hold good there. ‘Smabandham’ was definitely a mutually complementing relationship among many groups those days. It was not just Nairs who used to practice it. Only the eldest son among the Namboothiris used to get married (Veli) from the same community, that being the case, all their younger brothers had to marry from other castes which included ‘ambalavasi’, nairs ,varma etc. For the women, irrespective of their caste, it was a matter of proud to be in Sambandham with a Namboothiri, being at the helm of social hierarchy. Today, it might look as another scruffy piece of evil practice.

Today, when you look through the historical Kaleidoscope, you might even find the great leaders of the past, also as champions of human right violations indulging in bloody massacres. But then, would you equate Nepolean, Alexander and Asoka to a terrorist?

Coming back to the article,it is doing justice to history, as much good and bad things about Nairs are concerned. The idea is not to glorify Nairs, but the enthusiasm to know the past and to make the article as close to the extent possible as a ‘source of truth’. Not to meddle with different perceptions of history or Argue what was correct or not correct, what’s the point in doing a post mortem of history.Keraleeyan

I agree with Keraleeyan. We cant really judge whether something which occured in the past was right or wrong, irrespective of whether it lives up to our modern ideas. Sambandham, as he stated, was a matter of prestige coz the Brahmins were high up in society, specially so in the case of the highly orthodox Namboodiris. Besides, Sambandhams were not just a Brahmin-Nair alliance. Even the marriages of Ezhavas, Kuravars etc were known as Sambandham, including the giving of cloth, divorce at will etc. Manu —Preceding comment was added at 12:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

When talking about Sambandham, people seem to forget that it was the word for Marriage among Nairs (and other castes). It is similar to Veli for Namboothiris (although, a Veli is a vedic ritual). So a sambandham doesn't exclusively define a relationship between a Namboothiri man and a Nair woman, it basically refers to a relationship marital/cohabitational relationship between a Nair woman and Nair/Namboothiri man. There seems to be a perception that the practice was "immoral". Of course, the practice was used as a political tool, but basically sambandham gave women the right to initiate and terminate a relationship with any man. It's not so strange if you consider the place of a woman in a matrilineal society. A lot of the "immoral" connotation was given to sambandham by European commentators, who, coming from a patriarchial and patrilineal society, couldn't fathom the system of the Nairs. --vi5in^[talk] 20:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Perfect way of putting it! basically what may seem immoral and "evil" from our present day patrilineal systems were not interpreted that way in a matriarchal society...Manu —Preceding comment was added at 07:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It’s hypocrisy at its best which makes the westerners to sneer at ‘Sambandham’ and tag it as immoral, while they are the best practitioners of sambandham even today. If sambandham is making and breaking relations at will, I would say it was not bad and it is a stage which the most advanced societies including the Indian metropolis is moving towards. It is the perverted, hypocritical mindset which makes a hue and cry at this. The same moral police will be all praise for it when Britney Spears or Madonna does it. The cats and dogs need to grow up a little more.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 09:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The cats have grown up and are big cats now.The dogs continue to struggle with the bones of contention.Hope the canines will accept their historical blunders, stumbling blocks on the road to progress, sooner or later.MarJaranEpiscopa (talk) 08:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

If I can add something to this discussion: I am Nair and I have a Namboothiri father, my parents having married in the 1980's. Their marriage was an arranged marriage, and women from my tharavadu have married from my father's family before (I have other Namboothiri ancestors from my mother's side). The marriage is known as a "Poduvamuri" (clothe giving ceremony) which is what Nairs call it in Malabar. Namboothiris don't readily give Poduva to Nair women these days, but when it does it isn't considered an "inter-caste" marriage as such since it is in accordance with tradition. As far as I know, my father did not marry my mother in order to keep the Nair community "under check" and their marital commitments are mutual, just as it was in old days. Sambandham was harmful to the Brahmin community, since their numbers stagnated because of it (my father's Brahmin bloodline has ended with Nair), and instead the number of Nairs grew. The only advantage for the Brahmin community was that they could have a greater influence in the political situations, while Nairs sought the prestigious position of Namboothiri scholars and priests just as many people seek Doctors, Engineers and Professionals for marriage these days (ideas about Brahmins being racially different from other castes sprung up recently-and it is still an absurd proposition, as did the concept of "purifying blood")Hijjins (talk) 11:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem, my dear Hijjins- hope you are n't the same Professor Higgins from Shaw's Pygmallion!- is not the mutuality of marriage vows between individuals.It's rather a question of whether such mutuality is/was applicable to the two communities involved. Mutuality and reversibility. In other words, was there recognition - connivance, at the minimum- of the Nair male's right to have conjugal relations with Mambuthiri women (Antharjanam)? The answer is no, and that 's why the custom of Sambandham is derided as little more than subservience.Pandan & Maniyan (talk) 04:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

But you're basic this on the Nair male's right. You have to realize that this was a matrilineal society. It was the woman's choice to form a relationship with a Namboothiri. So it's not subservience. Yes, a caste system which places one set of people above the other includes an element of "subservience" implicitly. But in this case, one cannot really call this "subservience". --vi5in^[talk] 16:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Why was it a matrilineal society, on the first place? Did the Nairs have a choice ? Also, the Nair woman's choice to have relations with a Nambuthiri was endorsed by the males of her kin.Was it not so? On the other hand the Nambuthiris would not let their females opt for matrimony with a Nair male.Why were the Nambuthiris averse to letting Nair males have Nambuthiri women? Was it anything to do with the male's attitude to questions of domination and a pecking order in sexual liasons? It's like this: the dominant male has his pick of women and exercises his authoritiy to deny the subservient males acess to those females exclusively reserved for the former, while he may, at his will and pleasure, exercise his conjugal rights on any woman that he fancies. The woman may as well oblige him, in exchange for the previlege of being the General's girl.So, it's a question of dominance. If that's the case, the rest of the argument is simple.In a group when one 's not the dominant member, there's only one other place- that of the subordinate. Thus the practice of Sambandham between Nambuthiris and Nairs was a clear case of subservience and subordination.It's extremely surprising, since the Nairs were a martial race and must have had the skills and means to upstage the dominance of Nambuthiris, if they wanted. Why did n't they go ahead and do it?Pandan & Maniyan (talk) 09:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Sambandham was only able to take place because of the matrilinear, patrilinear nature of the two communities. If the Nair men had married Namboothiri women, the children would not belong to the matrilinear Nairs (since the mother is not a Nair), or the patrilinear Brahmins (since the father is not a Brahmin so would not have a gotra). For the Brahmins, the male was seen as the head of the family and the men had all control over whom the married (often Antharjanams remained unwed, where the men would most certainly have children through Veli or Sambandham). In the case of Nairs it was the woman who was the main component in continuing the family (it was a "curse" for all children in a tharavadu to be male, whereas this was favourable for Brahmins). The women had control over whom they had relationships with, and had more freedom in terms of marriage than Nair men, who could only marry Nair women, and was responsible for looking after their sister's children. The situation of Nair men and Antharjanams were similar to an extent, in that they were not considered the major "seed givers" of their communities, unlike the Nair women and Namboothiri men who were at the forefront of their communities in terms of marriage and relationships. Sambandham was a mutual process, the head of the Nairs (women) marrying the head of the Brahmins (men). The custom was natural for these communities. Today, viewing through a patrilinear mindset, a higher-caste male marrying a lower-caste female would seem "subservience", but this did not hold true then. It is known that Brahmins used to compete to win the hand of a royal Samantha Kshatriya woman or aristocratic Nair, and this was a source of pride for the Illam as well.Hijjins (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The point made the previous user is also equally valid. It was about superiority and inferiority as it was about power, prestige etc. Namboodiris were Brahmins and to this day they are considered highly sacred in Kerala. A namboothiri is still treated very highly by Nairs, even if he is a pauper. Again i cant give a real complete explanation but Velu Pillai says that the process of subjugating the people of Kerala and making them hindus was what caused sambandhams. First the migrants, ie brahmins, adopted the native dress, customs, serpent worship etc to conciliate the Nagas of Kerala, they then restricted the right of marriage to the eldest in the family, within the caste while the rest consorted with the "daughters of the soil" and thus they became king makers and powerful in the biological sense as well. Even the fictious Keralolpathi mentions that there was a tussle between the Brahmins and the Nagas before they reconciled in the above mentioned way. Manu —Preceding comment was added at 10:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Nairs were a matrilineal community because they simply were. They weren't forced to be one, so there isn't an issue of "choice" or lack thereof. Your point about male dominance makes sense from a patrilineal standpoint. But from a matrilineal standpoint, it doesn't. You seem to ignore the fact that in a Sambandham, a Nair woman made the decision regarding who she was going to be with. As another editor pointed out, many Namboothiris would compete for the hand of a Nair woman from a prestigious tharavad. It was a matter of honour for both the Illam and the Tharavad. You pointed out the inconsistency out yourself. Why would a martial race "subjugate" itself? Obviously they didn't see it as subjugation. If it was truly subjugation, do you think Nair women would have had the right to deny or accept a sambandham? --vi5in^[talk] 15:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The reasons for "many Namboothiris competing for the hand of a Nair woman from a prestigious tharavad" , were purely pecuniary.It was never a matter of "honour" for the illam in either case, considering the "ritual washing" was inevitable after the "polluting act" of touching a Nair.MarJaranEpiscopa (talk) 05:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you can categorically state that as the only reason. I'm sure it was a reason. --vi5in^[talk] 16:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

What were the relations between Nairs and Christians? You see, many Christians believe that their ancestors were Nambuthiris that embraced Christianity. So...MarJaranEpiscopa (talk) 09:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Namboothiris did not exist at 52 ad and there is no proof that St.Thomas ever landed in Kerala. (Pope Benedict sixteenth) St.Thomas perhaps converted the Syrians at the Parthian kingdom in which the North eastern parts of Pakistan Taxila or TakshaShila was included. St.Thomas built a palace for King.Gondophorous who was the king of Taxila. But there is no other evidence he ever visited Kerala except the Ramban Pattu written during the Portuguese period. In Tharissapalli shasanam of 845 ad, during the period of Ayyanadigal Thiruvadigal, the Syrian Merchants have signed in Hebrew,Pahlavi (Persian) and Kufric (Palestenian).The Syrian Christians are basically Mapillas who married among the local girls from all walks of life. Though they talked Syriac an aramic tongue they might have multiple nationalies including Jewish,Syriac,Palestenian and Persian.During the Portuguese periods (1500s to 1653 ad)they did rally behind the Portuguese and adopted the Roman Catholic religeon while abandoning their Nestorian, Eastern Orthodox religeon of Babylon.After the arrival of Portuguese the Syrians exploded in number from less than twenty thousand to many lakhs. The Semitic, Persian and Portuguese origins makes them tall and well built than most of the natives. Still they are people who have foreign mixture who follow a foreign religeon and never were part of Hindu caste system.The higher status of the Syrians in middle ages was because they were the middlemen in the lucrative pepper trade. But if they convert to Hinduism they may be accorded a place in the Hindu caste Hirarchy. Nativedravidan (talk) 14:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC) It's more a case of claiming Nambuthiri heritage to get a leg up in the caste system of Kerala. Nambudiri ancestry of Christians is widely disputed among historians, and Christians have been in Kerala longer than Nambudiris have, and there are other date mismatches with the claims. No one really believes it apart from the Christians who claim it of course.KBN (talk) 12:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The Nambbothiri ancestry of Kerala christians is a huge fallacy. The story was that St:Thomas, the direct disciple of Jesus, converted Namboothiris during the early years of AD. However, Namboothiris reached Kerala only during 7th C A.D ! The latest on this from pope Benedict XVI is that St:Thomas never evangelized in southern India at all ! Most of Kerala Christians are converts from Ezhavas and Harijans. The Ezhava page has more details on this which is also very well recorded in the history. There were also some ‘Syrian’ migrations during the 5th and 6th C AD. These immigrants also might have got absorbed in the malayalee Christian society later. The only instance of conversion of Nairs and Namboothiris is during the onslaught of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan in Malabar when many gentries were forced to embrace Islam. Sheik Ayaz Khan, whom Hyder Ali preferred as his successor ahead of his own son Tipu Sultan was one such Nair convert from N.MalabarKeraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 16:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

St.Thomas (Vishudha Thomasleeha) arrived at Crangannore (Musiris, then) in the year 52 AD. His earliest converts were the scions of several Nambuthiri Illams in Trichur, Kunnamkulam et al, who were won over by the many miracles that the saint performed (walking over water etc.).Nambuthiris embraced Christianity en masse in these areas. St.Thomas founded seven churches in Kerala.He was murdered by pagans while spreading the word of God in Mylapore, Madras , where his mortal remains were buried at St Thomas Mount.Christianity in Kerala is as old as Christ himself. Christianity in Kerala preceded that of Europe. The early christians, the chosen ones, were from among the highest in caste hirearchy.Christians are above the Nairs.Thomas Kutty Thannickal (talk) 05:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

How can he convert the Namboothiris in 52 AD when Namboothiris actually reached Kerala only by 7th C AD ? Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 06:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

In the ancient Kerala was predominantly Jain / Dravidian religeon was practiced by the Tamil Cheras. Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala.Most of the Hindu priests were of Dravidian origin. St.Thomas probably visited only Syria/Parthia and Taxila in Pakistan where he built a palace for king Gondophorus in the year 52 ad. There is no proof for his visiting Kerala.The Syrian sailors might have carried the St.Thomas legend to Kerala.Benedict 16th recently denied St.Thomas's arrival to Kerala. The popular story about St.Thomas was invented by Portuguese.Mylapore where they had a colony they built a Church with a legend.No such legend precede them. Ramban Pattu written in the Portuguese period is written aroune 1500 to 1700 ad. There is no evidence for the existence of Christianity in Kerala prior to fourth century ad(neither Jewish or Namboothiris converts).No Sangha literature ever talks about the existence of Christians in Kerala.Syrian Christians may descend from the Sassanian sailors who married local girls (Mapilla)between 300 ad to 900 ad.tharisapallisasanam was signed by Syrian christians in Hebrew,Kufric(palestine) and Pahlavi(Persian)indicating they were foreigners.Later period there could be intermixture with the Portuguese between 1498 to 1653(Koonan Kurisu)when they abandoned the Eastern Orthodox Church (Nestorian)in favour of Portuguese Roman Catholicism.

Nativedravidan (talk) 13:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Err, Mr Kutty, your edits smack of bias. You have only regurgitated the only thing linking Nambudiris with Christianity, which is a traditional account and if you believe that ParasuRama raised Kerala from the waters, you can also believe that Christians are related to Namboothiris, or in myths regarding St Thomas. All the Syrian Christians I have seen, who form the bulk of Malayalees in the Western world, phenotypically resemble the non-caste people from south Kerala around them with some rare exceptions, probably due to some Arab infusion, and it would be logical to conclude that Ezhavas (many linkings) and other non-predominant communities before Nambudiri arrivals form the vast majority of the Syrian Christian gene pool, what would be known as Avarna after Nambudiri arrival. It would be irrational to think that, even if they had been there during the Syrian Christian establishment, proud Nambudiris would abandon their benefitial caste position in Hinduism to marry and be a part of a community that has the majority of its members from Avarna communities. The same goes with Nairs, Devasahayam Pillai being the exception, who was a traitor and ally of De Lannoy and wasn't a Syrian Christian anyway. With Nairs, Hinduism forms a part of Nair identity and pride, when Hyder Ali conquered Malabar, the Nairs there who converted to Islam converted back to Hinduism, and most Nairs chose to leave their belongings and flee to Travancore rather then accept the restoration of power and political rights offered by Hyder Ali upon conversion to Islam. The question remains as to how the Nairs gave up many rights and became subordinated to Namboothiris upon their arrival in Kerala though, as it was not in their interest and Nairs clearly had a martial advantage, assuming Nair existence in Kerala predated Namboothiris.KBN (talk) 07:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)the present cast system and Malayalam language itself comes around 1000-1200 years ago. The present day keralam before that period was a part of "thamizakam"and the language was "chenthamiz", during"sankakalam" and later cheras,cholas and pandyas were the three prominent rulers of "thamizakam"."muziris" was the most important city of "cherakkam". Uzavar,panner, parayar,parathar(fishermen),kurumber were the main casts of that time, cheras were the ruling class people and they worshipped nagas,amma(devi,amman) deities they were followers of shaktheya shivasim based on tantrics. majority people were uzavas (farmers) and paravans(fishermen)who followed Buddha dharma came through sinhalam(lanka).later majority of uzavas became ezavas and thiyyas(means people from ezham,deep)and good portion of paravans became chiristans and Muslims. Jainism came through mysoor and Karnataka, they also had good followers among locals.Muziris, maduri,panthalayanikollam,vizinjam such cities and costal areas had roman,jewish,arab,chinies settlements, thus the 3 Semitic religions came to India, there were few Aryans(Brahmans) also settled in these cities but that time they were neither influential nor have any significant presence in society.

Brahmin settlement start much later stage around AD 7-10 centuries. They came to kerala from tulunadu under kadamba king mayurasharma's directions and settled in 32 gramams.

Then came 100 years of war between cheras and cholas, at 1st cheras lost heavily and chera power started to vanish, this time with the help of Brahmins cheras formed "chavers"(suicide squads) and finally cholas defeated, during this time social system started to change, Brahmins got upper hand in society ,cheras lost their mens in battle field,chera womens accept Brahmin partners, matriactial system started,these Brahmins received local customs and imposed their vedic and knowledge and became namputhiris , their childrens and relatives from cheras became nairs, adisankara established Brahmin supremacy among other ideologies especially among budha dharma, and namputhries accept and accommodate so many local believes and rituals such as chera king of ancient time"vell kezu kettavan" myth became parasurama myth etc. The story of Brahmins converts to Christianity came much later stage "the ramban pattu" and such type of other stories are using Malayalam language called"vattezuthu " ,these type of dialects used in 15- 18 th centuries. But one thing is shower that, AD 1 st centuries itself there were Christians in kerala, st: Thomas converts some jews who settled before them and locals(uzavas, paravas etc).probably he converts some budha,jain priests. In history you can see that people from lower sections have a tradition to imitate the upper class, and different clans and groups are claiming that they are descendents of some gods or prophets or some historical figure and try to imitate that custom and culture. This happened in kerala x'stian community also though castisam is against bible and Christianity (Jesus Christ himself belong to carpenter community). Art forms like "margam kali",chavittu nadakam( mohiniyattam, kathakali) etc are imitation, same in the case of words like "tharavadu", karnavar","ananthiravar" etc, these words are used by "marumakkathayam" nair clans , now everybody is using, last few years x'stians also started "ezuthiniruthal". These you can see everywhere in the world

A Namboothiri illam would prefer a son to marry into a royal family (making the Brahmin children of the eldest male and the future king first cousins) than for example a less advantaged family. There are numerous instances were the Brahmin cousins of rulers have been elevated to higher positions in the court, and in terms of land ownership. The Nairs maintained their community and even strengthened it's numbers while Brahmin population declined in Sambandam. An example of subjugation was the practice in medieval Rajasthan, where Rajput princesses were married to Mughal Kings and noblemen; where both the Rajputs and the Mughals were patrilinear. The Rajput princess would forfeit her place in the Rajput kingdoms and become a mother for future Mughal kings. In Sambandham however, it was the female who had the role of continuing the tharavadu, where the husband played an accessory role (whether he was Nair or Brahmin), and the Nair woman was not controlled by anyone else. Sambandham was a natural scenario for a matrilinear and patrilinear community to mix (it was present in Kerala, only because matrilinear societies are rare in India)

In terms of the earliest Christians in Kerala, it is known that several of the Jews had converted and the Syrian Christians may have some Syrian and Semitic ancestry (just as Mappila Muslims have some Arab ancestry, not all however). Earlier before Europeans arrived in Kerala, Syrians (who were a minority in those days) undertook some mercenary work but were mainly traders and merchants (being exempt from losing their caste by crossing the ocean) and it is known that in some parts of south Kerala Hindus and Christians had customs in common (the Christianity and Islam of those days were very Hinduized, given the lack of external contact). There are stories about Syrians and Mappilas having fought under Nair chiefs and with the Nair gentry (such as Kunjali Marrakar the Muslim Naval Chief of the Samoothiri), however when the Europeans arrived and the process of "divide and rule" began, each religion started branching out separately. The European missionaries tried (and some would argue, succeeded) in turning the Hindus against the Christians by making the two religions seem as separate as possible (the customs of Christians in Kerala became Europeanized, such as certain rituals, manner of dressing, dietary habit-before beef had been disallowed) in an attempt to "purify" the Christianity practiced. This is ironic since Kerala Christianity is one of the original forms in the world (though it has been largely replaced with European traditions today). At this stage, the Syrians distanced themselves from the Nairs and claimed a closer relationship with the Brahmins, giving themselves reason to feel that Christians were of a superior caste as a whole. However in Kerala, especially after the missionary work during the colonial era, the majority of Christians come from the Dalit communities. Whether there were Brahmins in Kerala in the 1st century AD (or even Nairs) is a source of controversy, and it is believed that Namboothiris migrated much later, the Dravidian Tamil Brahmins and lower caste Brahmins (who later became Ambalavasis) are thought to have been the original Brahmins in Kerala.Hijjins (talk) 09:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, all. We are nurses working at a Hospital in Philadephia. We follow these discussions with interest. We are christians from South Travancore. Our ancestry dates back to the Syrian merchants who were in Quilon at least as early as the 9th century AD.Please remember that Kollam or Quilon was founded only in AD 825 ( the beginning of "Kollavarsham"). The syrian merchants were prosperous. They had a high status in society. They merged with the mainstream population in the course of time. One branch is famous as Opthalmologists of Thevally near Kollam. They had "Vaidyan " as surname.(Varghese Vaidyan , the CPI Leader and a confidante of T V Thomas belonged to this line). It's difficult to believe that the Royal Physicians were below the Nairs in a Caste hierarchy. The castes and a social order on their basis must have emerged much later.Roopavathi Varghese & Ruchirangi Mathews (talk) 07:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Roopavathee... Ruchirangee... Romaancham Choodi varooo.../// Mohavathee...Madhurangee... Maarile Choodu Tharooo.... Kochu Thomman Kottappadi (talk) 12:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

So know the discussion has turned from whether Sambandham is immoral to which caste was higher: Nair or Syrian. Well the Syrians were not Hindu so they didn't fit into the Hindu caste system, and I am sure that if they did they would have been given Sudra status like all other castes except for Namboothiris. Being Royal Physician is a poor indicator of caste ranking, since the Ezhavas (who were classed as Avarna) had occupations which included Ayurvedic Vaidyar. You will have to come up with actual historic evidence of Syrian position in the caste structure, but I have heard they were of similar status to the martial Nairs. This changed as the Nair-Syrian separation occurred and Syrians began to try and associate themselves with Brahmins more. However as a large number of Dalits converted in large numbers to Christianity (some even gaining Syrian status just as some servant castes gained the title "Nair") many began to think that Christians were of an equal status to Dalits of India (this may be true in other parts of India where 90% of converts were Dalits, but not in Kerala where Christianity has been established for a while). Anyway I don't think you will find many people who would even care about the status of Syrians in relation to the Hindu caste system (Christianity is not supposed to have a caste system!)Hijjins (talk) 08:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering the large number of conversions and mixing from avarna castes to the Syrian Christian community, thats right, after missionary conversions, Nairs actually rebelled against the savarna status given to Syrian Christians in the Hindu caste system and their allowance into Hindu temples and festivals, to the point were Syrian Christians lost the clean caste status and from then on were regarded as de-facto avarnas not allowed to enter Hindu temples or holy grounds. And some Nair castes would be considered well above Syrain Christians anyway. In north and central Malabar a Syrian Christian would be treated the same as a dalit.KBN (talk) 12:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Christians, especially the syrian immigrants were treated almost on par with Nairs initially. They were welcomed by the local kings. Also many such families (like the Ezhupunna Tharakan) were immensely rich traders who even helped the Travancore financially during recession. A Chinese traveler who visited Travancore during the 14th Century, A.D. had noted that it was very difficult to distinguish between a Nair and a X’ian during that time. They were known as ‘Mani’ villagers and used to follow Nair traditions and even attire. Even they were part of the local king’s army. They were never treated as lower caste and that made many native ‘avarna’ people to convert into Christianity. Thus, they could escape from the social stigma and other evils customs like ‘theendal’ etc. The biggest conversion happened in the 19th century when more than 300,000 ezhavas in central Travancore converted into Christianity. However, with the change in this identity from Syrians to natives the Christians in Kerala lost their social status and were deemed to be below the ‘Savarna’ hindus. In reality, no one is ‘below’ or ‘above’ anyone. All such perceptions are just overshadows of the ‘dark age’ that Kerala underwent in the last century.Keraleeyan

The discussions are interesting. I am not a Nair, myself,-and not a Malayali either- but my wife is one. She 's from a Nair family in Cherpulassery, a branch of the Anakkara Vadakkathu family. I was brought up under the impression that all Nairs were barbers; at least that's what my neighbour Thomas and family kept telling us. I left my ancestral village near Guntur, AP in the ninties. I met and married my Nair wife in Chennai while doing my post graduation. My wife - then my girlfriend- had to take great pains at convincing me that Nairs belonged to the upper castes and that the barbers were an etirely different social group.What you get to know as a child remains etched in the memory! I do not know why Mr.Thomas and his family decided to misinform us. I get an insight as I go through these discussions.Alludugaaru (talk) 09:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It does not become Alludugaaru or whatever nonsense to refer to the "barber community " in a deprecating way. On the first place, you must remember that Barber is the name of a profession and it's along the professions/ guilds / trades that the ancient traditions of caste emerged. Caste is another name for trade or one's traditional calling.Meanwhile "Vilakkithala Nair " or "Barber Nair " or "Hairdresser Nair" is as good a Nair as anyone else. They do not belong to the Backward Castes or Other Backward Castes and therefore they too are members of the forward caste. There were Barbers too in the Nair regiments that crossed the length and breadth of Kerala in medieveal periods, and the barbers (Vilakkithala Nairs ) along with Washermen Nairs (or Veluthedathu Nairs) were integral components of the regiment. It's as simple as this: some of the Nair soldiers had to wield the razor blades and scissors instead of swords and shields, as the situation demanded so. Further, the Vilakkithala Nairs restricted application of their trades to the heads and torsos of Nairs, Khsatriyas and Nambuthiris. In other words, they refused to attend to Ezhavas and the like.While our Internet Nair Brigade is eager to restore their "lost links", with the Kshatriyas and hold aloft as sacrosanct the exceedingly abominable system of "Sambandham" that they had endured erstwhile, they are on their toes if ever the question of Vilakkithala nairs is raised.What a pity indeed!Vyathasthanam Oru Barber Balan (talk) 12:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome to add this information if you can find a reference. KBN (talk) 12:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That shows how important is to keep these pages as much a ‘source of truth’ as possible and that’s what most of the editors here are working on. I think most of the editors are from a non-political background and thus have no vested interests (unlike your neighbor Thomas). It’s the spirit of knowing the ‘facts about the past’ that drives these discussions. BTW, I don’t agree on undermining the status or work of a barber. .Keraleeyan

Someone added wrong info in the frontpage

The front page gives the total Nair population as 4,100,000. Actually it is completely wrong. That is the number of Nairs in Kerala only. There are a lot more Nairs in Tamil Nadu, Mumbai, Mysore, Banglore, Delhi, Noida.etc. I dont know the exact number, but close to 20-25% of all Malayalis living outside Kerala are Nairs. So total Nair population should be 5,000,000 to 6,000,000. There was a Christian site giving numbers, but it was unreliable. Here. They are giving 14,000 Nairs for Delhi. But there are over 250,000 Malayalis in Delhi and close to 25% are Nairs. (I'm living here. So I know better). Also there are a lot of Nairs in Singapore, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, South Africa, Oman.etc. Axxn (talk) 18:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Very valid point. At least half a million are expatriates. NSS is also active in many of these places, and probably they would be the right source to get the exact numbers. However, as an expatriate both abroad and in India, I know for sure that the Nairs, are the most cosmopolitan among the malayalee communities. Per a latest survey on ‘mixed’ marriages, the Nairs constitute the highest number along with Punjabis among the mixed married Indian couples. While more and more Nairs are fast shedding the facade of ‘caste’ identity, many of our fellow malayalees are inquiringly wearing it. Probably this attitude of today’s nairs would be a good ingredient for a new section in the article. .Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 06:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

dear keraleeyan, what is the source ot the "mixed marriages' survey?...it is probably true as well, because many nairs especially urbanised nairs have opted not only for intercaste but interstate alliances too!Vivwiki (talk) 17:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This survey came in one of the NSS bulletin (outside Kerala). The context was how to instill an 'awareness' among the Nair youths settled outside Kerala. The article goes on to state that among the new generation settled outside kerala, more than 60% are getting married outside the community. However, the % getting married to other malayalee communities is very few. And in most of these cases, irrespective of this being a boy or a girl, they are adopting the spouse's community and there by reducing the new memberships in oraganizations like NSSKeraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 06:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That is an interesting point. When Nairs marry outside the community, the children associate strongly with the other spouse's culture regardless of gender of the spouse. This is because of Nair matrilinear culture. Example, if a Nair woman married a North Indian man, the children would belong to the father's family as per the patrilinear nature of nearly all other communities. If a Nair man married a woman from another culture, the children would not be considered Nair in a strict sense, since they have no matrilinear tharavadu, and would find it harder to fit in (I know such families, and usually the children take the first name of their father as their last name). This is also why Nair men did not marry Brahmin women, since the children would have no valid place in society in those days. The only time that the children of inter-culture marriages keep a solid Nair identity is during Sambandham (I have a Brahmin father, but do not consider myself Brahmin in any form, and associate with Nair completely since my mother is a Nair).Hijjins (talk) 01:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

List of Nairs

It would be nice if we could have a list of important Nairs, just like there are articles List of Rajputs, List of Iyers, List of Jews, etc.Jammedfly (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Been through that before. It's opening a can of worms. We were never really able to work out a verifiable list. --vi5in^[talk] 15:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

O forget it...either u need to have the patience to keep removing the uncles and fathers and brothers of ppl from the list or else just mention a few names and pics in the article itself (which i dont support, given the length of the article)...Manu

Manu's right. Have a look at [[4]]. I reckon I can get away with putting uncleji on the list.KBN (talk) 14:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

All names that do not have an article linked to it must be deleted from the List of Nairs (this is how it is done in List of Rajputs, etc.) A veritable name is one which is Wikipedia worthy (i.e. has an article attributed to it). And we should removed all vandalism as we remove all vandalism that we see elsewhere!Hijjins (talk) 08:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

racial map of india and kerala too

Media:http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=attach5aq0.jpg hi friends, i have uploaded the racial map of india , the url is given above, notice the racial components of malabar, it is similar to north west india, gives credence to the scythian origin theory of the nairs, your comments are welcome!....Vivwiki (talk) 04:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC) p.s- since iam not so good at uploading you can see the image at the following url too- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:My.php%3Fimage%3Dattach5aq0.jpg....Vivwiki (talk) 04:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks more like Mangalore than Malabar. Also, though Nairs have a separate racial identity than that of the Kerala populace, it may not get reflected in such maps since they are only a mere 10% of the total population. The spot mentioned in the map should be Mangalore where there are more Konkanis, anglos, madhwas, bunts and Nair population which put together will be a higher % than the rest of the races.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 05:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

thanks, keraleeyan,... however the author of this map { dr b.s guha}, did not conduct any studies on race in south kanara, mangalore and the communities you mentioned are predominantly brachycephalic( broad headed), compared to the mixture of mediterraneans, orientals and proto nordics which should be dolichocephalic, i am a nair settled in mangalore and have observed that the brahmin population here resembles the maharashtrian brahmins a lot.my theory on this map is that the area of south west india which is labelled "5" should be populated by nambuthiris , nairs who may contribute to the mediterranean and proto nordic mixture and muslims of malabar who are contributing the oriental( arab) components... you are also right that maps cannot accurately depict race,!... but thanks for your views anyway!Vivwiki (talk) 14:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Martial Race

The article states that the Nairs were classed as a Martial race by the british. But i have heard to the contrary. The list on wikipedia itself states that they were removed after rebelling, but they were never in it in the first place. This so called "List" was made sometime in/before the mid 19th century by which time the Nairs, as Nagam Aiya says, "lost the turbulent temper for which they were so remarkable and secured the position of a peaceful agrarian people" or something. Does anyone have citations to prove the Nairs were in the list?? Manu

I coudn't find a source that stated outright that the British considered Nairs as a martial race. By all means add the sourced statement that suggested that Nairs became a peaceful agrarian people though. KBN (talk) 12:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Collage

A collage of famous Nairs, such as with the Jat people article, would look nice. KBN (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah..say Velu Thampi, Irayimman Thampi, Kamala Das (does she count now?) or some filmstar, Shashi Tharoor etc. Yeah good idea. Manu

Yep, MGR, Vijay Nambiar, Mohanlal, Shashi Tharoor, lots to choose from, and one or 2 historical Nair figures. KBN (talk) 06:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, though there’s a plethora of names to choose from, better to restrict names with National and International reputation. 1 or 2 names from each fields like history, cinema, politics, science, diplomacy etc. would be fine. Keraleeyan

The collage does n't show even one woman- surprising, for a matriarchal community! There are several distinguished women too. Kamaladas (Kamala Suraiyya),poet of international renown; Captain Lakshmi, lieutenant of Subhash Chandra Bose; Mrinalini Sarabhai, danseuse and consort of Vikram Sarabhai; Mira Nair, fim maker( a half caste, perhaps?); Jaya Jaitley, leader of George Fernandez's party. (Chettoor Shankaran Nair's grand daughter); Uma Gajapati Raju; Sugatha Kumary poet and activist; Lalitha, Padmini & Ragini, known in their time as rhe Travencore sisters; Shobhana, National Award Winning Actress; Revathi Menon, actress and activist; and so on....Alludugaaru (talk) 08:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Because of the issue of free images entirely.KBN (talk) 10:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the free images I could find is only of famous Nair male politicians mostly. t would be appreciated if anyone can find more free images of notable Nairs, preferable women and not associated with politics. KBN (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Why only politicians?..you can add K.S.Chithra (from the malayali page). Also Mohan Lal (the most famous malayali, per a leading t.v.channel) is missing..Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 13:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't find a non-free picture of Mohanlal to add to the list. I checked the Mohanlal article, and there isn't an image there. --16:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

List of surnames

Someone keeps adding Poduval to the list of Nair surnames. While Marars are Nairs, the Poduvals are Ambalavasis and have only 13 days of pollution. So please refrain from adding the poduvals Manu

Poduvals are nayars of north malabar. The difference in death and birth pollution (asoucham or pula and valaima) for all nayars of malabar are 12 days of pula + 3 days of vaalaima irrespective of subsect. The vaalaima period can be considered as a period of only partial pollution where by practice in malabar people can enter the temple only till the "valaima kallu" (stone inside the temple denoting the permissible entry for partial pollution) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.172 (talk) 18:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Source with quotes concerning Nair martial behaviour.

Could someone summarize this and incorporate it into the article. There seems to be a lot of information to be derived by these quotes yet to be added. [5]