Talk:Nair/Archive 12

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Archive 10

Nairs are Kshatriya

Latest comment: 14 years ago9 comments5 people in discussion

Some vandals have made it a habit to raise the varna issue every two or three days. So I am posting more sources:

[1] - Nair (Nagara) Kshatriyas sent out a religious invasion under Sankara which subjugated the whole of India. The history of Kerala goes hack to the days of the Mahabharatha and the Ramayana.

[2] - The Nairs are included in the Kshatriya class (soldiers) and the castes below Nairs are considered to lower caste such as the Ezhava and untouchables.

[3] - In the southern parts of the peninsula, the Nairs (a species of country nobility rather than a distinct tribe) are considered to belong to the warrior caste. Whether they are the dispersed remnants of the old Kshatriyas, is not yet sufficiently ascertained.

[4] - None of these people, except possibly the Nairs of Kerala and the Rajus of Andhra, have been viewed by some as Kshatriya

[5] - Nairs of Malabar enjoyed social power similar to that claimed by Kshatriyas of the North.

[6] - The Nairs of Kerala, Mudaliars of Tamilnad, Reddys of Andhra are low castes only in the sense of sacred thread, but for all practical purposes they are equal to the Kshatriya.

[7] - Mention is made also of an expedition into Malabar to assist the Kshatriya rulers, the Nairs, against an insurrection of the natives.

[8] - The Bhataraka was probably his father-in-law, and the Kshatriyas (the Nairs) against whom the aboriginal Malabarians had revolted.

[9] - Nair or Menon caste are considered equivalent to Kshatriya or the warrior caste.

[10] - The war-like Nairs once lorded over the famous state, Kerala. They were of Kshatriya blood, possessed of all the attributes suggested by the name.

[11] - The Kshatriya or soldier caste is practically identical with the Rajputs of North Central India, and the Nairs of the south. Outside the three " twice- born castes, the whole of the mass of the Indian people were classed as Sudras.

[12] - The warrior caste, the Nairs, who claimed to be the equivalent of the Kshatriyas in other parts of India now came into being. Racially they were half Aryan.

[13] - (Brahmans) and Nayar (Kshatriya) in Kerala. According to the theory

[14] - After the decline of Perumal rule in Kerala, the Nayar Kshatriya rulers became powerful.

[15] - This is because for a long period, the Nambuthiri (Brahmin) and the Nair (Kshatriya) communities would begin their education with Sanskrit and would continue their studies in Sanskrit.

[16] - in the presence of a Namboodiri (Brahmin) an Ezhava ( an untouchable ) had to stand 36 feet away and in the presence of a Nair (Kshatriya) he

[17] - Inheritance

[18] - "A Nayar or Kshatriya bridegroom holds a drawn sword in his right hand. This procession is considered to be the most spectacular of the entire function."

[19] Nayar (Malayalam-speaking caste claiming Kshatriya status)

[20] Only the Nair (Kshatriya) community and it's subcastes practised matriarchy in Kerala.

[21] - Of the Kshatriyas we find but a few who lay claim to the honours of that caste ; and here I may observe, that it is general throughout India for the different castes of fighting Shudras, whose peculiar dharma or religions duty it is to engage in war and plunder, to call themselves Kshatriyas, although, according to Hindoo history, all that race was annihilated by divine wrath. The Nair of Malabar, who is notoriously of servile caste, will describe himself and his ancestors as belonging to the royal or fighting division; wears the Janeo or thread of the twice born, and demeans himself accordingly.

[22] - Within South India, It was only in Kerala that there emerged warrior lineages approximate to the Kshatriya model. Nayar ' Kshatriya-hood ' was thus based on special ecological conditions within the south Indian macro-region.

[23] - One of the theories propagated about the origin of Paramaras gives notable clues about the relation that sustained Nambutiri (Brahmins) and Nayar (Kshatriya) in Kerala.

[24] - The Chera Kings the first known rulers of Kerala, were by origin of Nayar

[25] - "Chera, Chola and Pandya, who were descendants of the fire, the sun and the moon respectively.

[26] - The Nayar caste took the place of the Kshatriyas

[27] - The historical household unit among the Nayar of the Kshatriya caste in South-West India.

[28] - Nair (Kerala Kshatriya caste)

[29] - The annual arattu - Taking the image of god for a final purifying bath in a procession headed by his majesty with his Nair (Kshatriya) officers with drawn swords must have been an awe-inspiring sight

[30] / [31] - for after mentioning an expedition of his into Malabar to aid the Kshatriya (Nair) rulers, against the rebellious natives of the province.

[32] - All this was done by Nair Kshatriyas under orders of Adiyodi. This chamber is called the Aryan Smoke Chamber.

[33] - But the bulk of those who carried on the Kshatriya profession (ie warfare) were drawn from the Nair caste.

[34] - Nayar is the caste corresponding to the Kshatriyas, second in importance to the Brahmans. At present, Nair or Nayar is a title added to nearly all the names of the race, and it is, like Mister or Esquire, assumed as a birthright by any.

[35] - Gen. Candeth was very proud of his ancestry. "I am a Nair from Kerala. I am a Kshatriya", he had told this reporter at the time of the interview.

[36] - The Kshatriya, or military class is said by the Brahmins to be extinct. But the Rajpoots and the Nairs in the Deccan in all probability belong to this class.

[37] - Specifically, the Jews adapted the religious behaviours and symbol complexes of two significant Hindu reference groups: the dominant Nayar caste (particularly the local royal family) and, from a distance, the Nambudiris, the highest brahmin caste of Kerala.

[38] - The Reddys of Andhra, the Vellalas of Tamil Nadu, and the Nayars of Malabar never accepted the four-fold division. Also, they enjoyed as communities social power similar to that claimed by the Kshatriyas.

[39] - his very boyhood, because divine Brahmanic qualities filled his veins, though the people of his caste in Kerala are noted for their Kshatriya spirit.

[40] - Warriors of Kerala in historical times were the Nairs, who, by occupation combined the functions of Kshatriyas with those of the Vaisyas.

[41] - For many reasons, the Kshatriyas and the Nayars are not different castes.

[42] - The ethnology of the Nayars is as interesting as their sociology. They claim to be Kshatriyas by caste.

[43] - The Nayars are treated as Kshatriyas.

[44] - Perhaps most of the Kshatriyas are Samantans belonging to high caste Nayars.

[45] - In Malabar warrior lineages did emerge and ruled over larger territorial units; these were the Nayars, who, if not as Shudras, were regarded as Kshatriyas.

[46] - The Nayars form the bulk of the Hindu population of Malabar, and they are considered as de-casted Kshatriyas.

[47] - The Nayars, members of the Kshatriya or warrior caste, ruled all those regions for many centuries under various kings and priests.

[48] - The Nayars, however, are primarily a military caste. Though they have become greatly mixed in recent times, and they are said to be regarded as Kshatriyas.

[49] - It further relates that the original Newars were drawn from the Nayars and were Brahma-Kshatriya.

[50] - For instance, apart from the Nayars of Kerala the Kshatriya or warrior order is virtually nonexistent in the South.

[51] - The Nayars traditionally performed Kshatriya and Vaishya functions.

[52] - Groups such as the Nayars, whose activities as rulers and professional warriors would normally equate them with the Kshatriya.......

[53] - The Nayars (traditional warriors) followed Marumakkathayam.

[54] - The Nayars are Malayalam speaking people, and may be described as the Kshatriyas or fighting clans of Southern India.

[55] - JC Locke, in his The First Englishmen in India describes the Nairs as the polyandrous warrior race of Malabar. They correspond to the Kshatriyas of the rest of India.

[56] - Social status of the Nairs (Kshatriyas) in Malabar society at that time...

[57] - Nairs (Kshatriyas).

[58] - Kshatriyas and Samantans were originally Nairs

[59] - The Nairs were given a dominant position in the caste hierarchy and were functionally equated with the Kshatriyas.

[60] - and Kshatriya Nairs of Kerala.

[61] - Among them, until recently, only the eldest son was allowed to take a wife from his own caste (the others had to marry Nairs who are Kshatriyas and their......).

[62] - Kshatriya: Rajpoots and the Nairs in the Deccan belong to this class.

[63] - Se trouvait flatté du rapprochement, puisque les Nairs, en dépit de leurs pratiques irrégulières, sont rangés comme Ksatriyas parmi les castes nobles.

[64] - The Nairs (or Nayars), a twice-born caste that constitutes some 15 per cent of the Hindu population in the state, was once a warrior community practising.....

[65] - Stranieri sono anche i rappresentanti della casta ksatriya, pochissimi di numero anche al tempo in cui il Papi scrive; i Nayar, di casta simile alla loro ma.....

[66] - Kerala ritual, which he calls the "sorcery," "martial," and "priestly" complexes, corresponding to three caste divisions (Sudra, Ksatriya/ Nayar, and Brahmin).

[67]- dasarkan kasta adalah kasta Ksatria Nayar yang bersifat matrilineal di Kerala (Gough,1961).

[68] - Kalarippayattu is traditionally associated with the Nayar caste, which corresponds, in Kerala, to the Ksatriya military caste of the classical Indian tradition.

[69] - Among the Kshatriya (warrior) class, the Nayar caste was predominant on the Malabar coast. Nayar males were "not permitted to marry, rear families........

[70] - In the arid hill country which is now known as Rajastan, powerful lords and their arms bearing retainers had been calling themselves Rajputs. These people's closest counterparts elsewhere were the users of the south Indian designations Nayar and Nayaka

[71] - For example, Nairs are not considered by him as shudras. But there is a line of pollution, and Nairs are much above this line.

[72] - Dames writes that the Nairs are " classed as Sudras, whereas their real analogy is with the Kshatriyas of ancient, and the Rajputs of modern days.

[73] - The Nairs had enjoyed throughout Kerala, the status of Kshatriyas.

[74] - The Rajpoots and Nairs in the Deccan are supposed to belong to the Kshatriya. If the class be extinct, as the Brahmins allege, this may be owing to the peaceful character of the people, their freedom from foreign invasion, and the commercial habits which characterise the Hindoo.

[75] - Nairs took the place of Kshatriyas.

[76] - Nairs, who as the warriors of the country, should by analogy be called Kshatriyas rather than Sudras — a curious revelation ascribed to Parasu Rama.

[77] - Nairs who, being given the function of defence, became analogous to Kshatriyas.

[78] - The Nairs are also the martial race, like the Kshatriya castes of northern India.

[79] - Kshatriya, or military class, is said by the Brahmans to have become extinct; but the Rajpoots and the Nairs in all probability belong to this class.

[80] - As few Kshatriyas came from the North, the Nair chieftains took the place of the Kshatriyas, and with their great grit and adaptability a remarkable military system was established in Kerala under the lead of the Nairs.

[81] - Nairs, en dépit de leurs pratiques irrégulières, sont rangés comme Ksatriyas.

[82] - Nayars were members of the warrior or Kshatriya caste, the second highest caste of Indian society. Nayar men trained as professional soldiers.

[83] - Their enactment are neither documentary records of the ruler-warrior (ksatriya) caste (Nayars) nor the fantasies of poets writing in isolation.

[84] - The Nayars, though Kshatriyas by profession in earlier days....

[85] - It was needful that there should be a protector or Kshatriya caste ; so they promoted the ruling race to this distinction, and called them Nayars.

[86] - Brahmans have mating relations with the female members of the matrilineal Kshatriya Nayars.

[87] - Themselves tenants of chiefly Nayars (Samantan or Kshatriya Nayars).

[88] - Others held 12 year kanam lease from those (Nambuthiris or Kshatriya Nayars) with a superior title to land.

[89] - à celle des Ksatriya (Nayar).

[90] - Varadpande points out an intriguing parallel with the present day Kutiyattam performers, the Cakyars, who claim their descent from the ancient sutas and are historically the children of the union of Brahman Nambudiris and Kshatriya Nairs of Kerala.

[91] - The Nayar caste took the place of the Kshatriyas.

[92] - It was the Prince of Kottarakara, from a Nayar ruling family in the south of Kerala, who produced.......

[93] / [94] - The two dominant castes—Namboodiris (Brahmins or the priestly caste) and Nairs (Kshatriyas or the aristocratic caste)—stood at the apex of the system of customary obligations and rights, and together they appropriated the largest share of the cultivator's product.

[95] - He mentions how various peasant castes like the marathas, reddis, vellalas, nayars, and coorgs were able to claim kshatriya status in the Deccan and in south India.

[96] - The Nayar are traditionally a warrior caste.

[97] / [98] - Dr. Gundert defines the Nayars as the Sudras of Kerala, raised to the rank of Kshatriyas by their intimate connection with the Brahmans.

[99] - The military aristocracy of the Nayars, confined to the coast of Malabar, is founded on polyandry.

[100] - Their persecution by the Maravar (warrior caste of the southeast) and the Nayar (warrior caste of the southwest) was itself proof that the Shanar were a conquered race of early Tamil royalty.
[101] - In the Apartheid Andhrite Vijayanagar varna system, a semi-Aryan Nair warrior would shoot a Dravidian Sudra Negro at sight.

[102] - They are considered generally as a Dravidian variety of the Aryan Kshatriyas.

[103] - These were historically the monopoly of certain savarna (upper caste) Hindus with distinct ‘middle class’ orientation and cultural values, and who benefited from early access to western education. Among them are the Brahmins, Khatris, Kayasthas, the Bengali bhadralok, Nairs, etc. For simplicity’s sake, we may label them ‘Brahmin-plus’ communities as opposed to the Vaishya-plus Old Guard. --------------- Axxn (talk) 18:10, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much. But you have forgot to add the most important link. Shabdatharavali, the most comprehensive work on Malayalam language gives the description of Nair as: Nairs are the Malayalee warriors (Kshathriyas) of Kerala. They are the owners of this land. [104] Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

great job, by mr suresh varma!... to dig out so many articles supporting nair kshatriya status!...anyways by karma nairs are nothing but kshatriyas!...howvever its better we dont call ourselves nagavanshi kshatriyas as that is a misnomer by itself,,, nagas were outside the aryan 4 fold system... i have a couple of queries though... in the book- short history of kerala- k v k ayyar... he talks about nairs being descendants of the aratta vahikas of the punjab- gandhara area on basis of matrilineal inheritance .... i guess his theory is quite plausible... also atleast 3 authors logan, risley and u balakrishnan nair have quite strongly a pallava( and hence parthian?0 orogin of the nayars.....valluvanad is thought to have been founded by the pallavas.Vivwiki (talk) 19:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm.... sorry to disappoint you, as it was not me who dug up all those refs. You can see that my post is confined to just the two lines above your post. About the Parthian / Aratta Vahika origin, I haven't done much study on them, so will need quite some time. Till now all that I got from that book (KVK Iyer – History of Kerala) is this paragraph: "Looking at the characteristics of the Nayars, the Aratta vahikas of the Mahabharata seem to provide the right comparison. They were ayudhajivans, their women had considerable freedom, the man’s heir was his sister’s son and these Aratta vahikas might themselves have been a branch of the Brahuis of Baluchistan. They probably moved down south following the invasion of Darius (518-516). Some moved to Tulunad, some came through the Palakkad gap; some went to Laccadives & Ceylon. Some were stranded in pockets around North Arcot, Trichy and Salem." I hope other users will be able to do a little bit more of research on this. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 03:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

yes.... the credit goes to axnn!!!... good job!...Vivwiki (talk) 05:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

It is wrong to say that the Nagas were outside the 4 fold system since they were non-Aryan. Almost all the indigenous people of India, including Aryans, Scythians, Nagas and Dravidians were classified in to the 4-fold system (For example the Cholas were classified as Suryavanshi Kshatriya). Nagavanshi clans exist among Rajputs and Jats as well. The Maharajah of Chotanagpur was a Nagavanshi Kshatriya as can be noticed from here and here. One of my friends is a Nagavanshi Kshatriya (Rajput) from Jeypore in Orrissa. But if you go to Nagavanshi article, it is full of Jat POV and you'll find hardly any mention of Rajputs and Nairs. Ancient copper plate inscriptions about Nagavanshi Kshatriyas has been discovered from Chandrapur in Maharashtra. Also, the reference used (Downfall of Hindu India by Chintaman Vinayak Vaidya) for terming Nairs as Kshatriya in the introductory paragraph (which in my opinion should be changed to include the definition from the Shabdatharavali) states that Nairs are "Nagara Kshatriyas". So what I am saying is that it is quite hard to ignore the Naga origin, as it is cited by a large number of sources. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 11:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for posting so many sources to prove that Nair is Kshatriya. The vandalism by lower castes was going on for a long long time, and i hope this will shut their mouths for a while. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 13:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

/* A Genuine Doubt */

Nairs may be Kshatriyas, at least for argument's sake. At the same time, what explanation can there be for the Royal families of Kerala to refrain from treating the Nairs at par?-i.e to say considering the Nairs as a caste of equal status, and marrying off their girls to Nairs? I would suggest a review of the social structure of Trivandrum, Kilimanoor, Mavelikkara and Tripunithura, to start with, where the society is built around the 'Palace'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.177.98 (talk) 19:10, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The Royal families are Nairs only, but they were accorded a special status by the Brahmins. Marriage is a very complex thing, as a Kiryathil Nair woman can't be married off to a Charna Nair and a Illathu Nair woman never marries a Swaroopathil Nair. Also, only those children who were born to Brahmin fathers and Kshatriya mothers were considered proper Kshatriya by the Nambuthiris. Those few royal clans like the Travancore Maharajahs who married off their females to other Kshatriyas were required to undergo hiranyagarbha before the coronation. There is no "parity" amongst the Nairs. Different subcastes among the Nairs do have varying social status. For example a Kiryathil Nair can take food together with a Brahmin, but subcastes below them are forbidden to do so. Also, a Charna Nair is not allowed to take food in the company of a Kiryathil Nair. There are no two subcastes which are having equal social status. A clan might consider another clan either as superior to them or inferior to them, but no Nair clan will consider another Nair clan as equivalent to them in status. (Source: The Internal Structure of the Nayar Caste, C. J. Fuller). And finally one more thing. I just checked the membership list given on the official websites for both the Cochin Royal Family and Mavelikkara Palace. I hardly found any Brahmins mentioned, but there were a significant number of Menons and Nairs (both males and females). And I am myself a descendant of Samanta Kshatriya - Illathu Nair mixed marriage. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 21:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

One more genuine doubt

How are Nairs Kshatriya, when even the Kings had to go through expensive procedures periodically to be termed even a 'Samanta Kshatriya'?? Any one to answer?? Legolas95 (talk)

Kuttappan nair sock puppet allegations

Latest comment: 14 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

To suresh varma,anand nair and other sincere contributors

after reading this cock and bull story from kuttappan nair,i have apprehensions that he is a sock puppet of famed anti-nair vandal Sanam or is one of those anti-nair communists who regularly trawl this page.If anyone thinks the same then please start the sock puppet investigations.i am too busy to edit wikipedia off late.Thank you.Linguisticgeek (talk) 13:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

These are some of his suspected socks -

- Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I had contributed to the Wikipedia article on Nairs during 2006-2008 and was vociferous in my insistence that Nairs should be classed as 'Kshatriya' and not as 'Savarna Sudra' as a few others were arguing. (I had used numerous sock poppets, and Chandrakant Mannadiar or whatever is not smart enough to identify even one of these!) And, that's about all. Nairs are Kshatriyas because they were soldiers. (What else is Kshatriya?) How many of you know about Armies and life in the Army? It is a different situation altogether, when we bring down Kshatriyahood to the level of the mundane. I was absolutely disgusted to see postings in succession, citing one source after another, in testimony to Nairs being Rajputs.. Nairs being Huns. Baah! I am a Nair and I am proud of my legacy as one, and I would n't compromise my dignity by clamouring for equality in caste status with people whom I should have scant regard for, since it is my belief that Nairs should have been ruling Kerala and not the worthless successors to Marthanda Varma and Ramayyan Dalawa! Kuttappan Nair (talk) 18:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I think this chap, Kuttapan Nair is going overboard!!!... none of us ever made claims to nairs being rajputs.... we had only mentioned that some lineages have rajput blood( minachil karthas).and marital connections with rajput princesses( princess abhirami) and the assi,ilation of foreign kshatriyas into the samantha fold. also about the hun theory - it is by an author called chandra chakraborty - if you read his book... you will be amused at most of his theories about the origins of indian castes and communities, but nevertheless he has written a book and hence it can be quoted!.... my purpose was just to highlight the various views held by authors and anthropologists.Vivwiki (talk) 02:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I wish our contributors could exercise a certain rigour and formality in their postings, at least when they make a direct personal reference.It may be too much to expect,perhaps,from people who are eager to obliterate their less glamourous roots. Well, from the looks of it, this is not the party to join for a Brigadier (Retd.) from the Indian Army who saw action in the Western Front ,and was decorated, as a young Second Lieutenant, in 1971.I haveto write under assumed names, and I am not used to fighting mere phantoms.Kuttappan Nair (talk) 09:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

So kuttappan nair admits he uses sock puppets.I think no one should reply to his posts anymore.Atleast i won't do.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Seeking consensus on using this image

Latest comment: 14 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Image:Nair couples 04565400.jpg - Nair couple from 20 century

Image

This historical image was uploaded on the commons way back in 2009 showing a nair couple in mundu.I believe the image should be used on the main article.i am seeking consensus.those who agree on the use of this image in the main article,please vote below by typing down Agree followed by your sign.those who do not agree,type Do not agree followed by your sign.Thank you.Linguisticgeek (talk) 05:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

some more info the image was taken by nicolas bros and he writes that Nairs are a High caste community here

Do not agree - This image was extensively used for POV pushing against Nairs in the past. This image neither represents the common attire prevalent amongst Nairs during the 20th century, nor it represents any thing related to the Nair community at all. Axxn (talk) 06:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Do not agree - As per above. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 15:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Do not agree- Since both the man and the woman would have had an upavasthram (thorthu-towel) which was slung across the shoulder (the predecessor of the mundum-veshti). Also the hair style of the woman is not a neat bun on top of the head as per tradition. Essentially, I doubt whether the photographer was certain of the Nair caste, and even if they were Nairs, they are not traditionally attired. Here are traditional dresses from the same site:
http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/97/asia/04597200.jpg- Label says "Nayar", note the neat hair bun, much more distinct than the previous photo, and the practice of wearing an upavasthram across the torso.
http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/97/asia/04596800.jpg- Label says they are "Irava" (Ezhava?) although their dress looks very similar to that of Nairs

124.180.116.160 (talk) 23:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok since majority are against the use of this image,the image won't be used.I sought consensus because of the upper body nudity.But i don't think the author was confused about the nairs.he specifically writes nair( high caste).I never thought the image could be used for POV.But yes since this page is a regular target of vandals,better not use this image and yes agreed this isn't the traditional dress but then if i remember correctly then Nair women and men used to wear the upper clothing only when they ventured outside their homes.upper clothing was considered a mark of high status.i guess the author took the image inside the house.anyways all sincere contributors please find images of Nairs in traditional attire from same era.i am searching as well in the archives.Thank you.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

The other 2 links show traditional dress from the era. Within their home they would have worn upper clothing in the presence of a stranger especially. Also the woman does not have a neat hair not in the Nair style. Using this picture to describe Nairs, is like having a similar picture of a Nambudiri couple, the only difference being a poonul being worn by the male, and a mangalsutra by the female, but the antharjanam would not have worn an uppercloth inside either, however venturing outside antharjanams wore a full body covering.121.214.126.146 (talk) 01:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Clarification about the link -The Kadambas By Phanikanta Mishra

Latest comment: 14 years ago10 comments5 people in discussion

Hi there, i have been following Nair history for a while and i should congratulate you on the amount of info put in here and on having a productive and active talk page. What i am finding hard to understand is your theory of Naga-Scythian migration with Brahmins on the invitation of Kadamba King Mayuravarma. I have gone through the link 'The Kadambas By Phanikanta Mishra p.14', it doesnt anywhere mention Nair. It only mentions about Brahmins being invited by Mayuravarma. Moreover this migration happened in 4th century AD. and if we take the Parashurama myth, if that has to do anything with the geological changes in Southern Indian coast (as suggested by some scholars), it should go back to around 800-400 BC. The period could very well have been the time when Naga dynasties were present all over the subcontinent, given the fact that they were almost wiped out finally in North India as a political power by the Guptas in around 5th cent.AD. So when you already have claimed the Nagavanshi descent and a history going back to the B.C, what is the logic of claiming a Naga-Scythian origin which was definitely a later entry to the arena?

Even if we take Risleys classification of Indian Races, he mentions the Scytho-Dravidians extending only uptil Coorg starting from Gujarat along the Western Ghats. Moreover its a known fact that the Scythians were a proponents of Sati system in India, which doesnt fit well with the Matrilineal system of Nairs. Ofcourse the available details about Nagas does defintely fit with it, but not Scythians. The Coorgs too who are suppposed to have a Scythian link have a very strong Patrilineal and patrilocal system.

The Nambuthiri brahmins are a far more older group than the Brahmins of coastal Karnataka. Their very ancient continuous oral traditions proove that. And it is a known fact that the Nairs have been closely related with the Nambuthiri since the time of their inception (correct me if i am wrong), which definitely goes earlier than the 4rth century of Kadambas. The mentioning of Kadamba bringing in Bunts also doesnt hold as it is a known fact that the Alupas (Bunts?) were already in power as a dynasty in Tulunad when the predecessors of the Kadambas, the Chutus were ruling in Banavasi. Just like Nairs under Vijayanagar, they might have been the generals under the Kadamba overlords. So mentioning Nambuthiri-Nagavansh in one place and Kadamba link in the other is mutually contradicting. I dont think it serves any of your purpose.And there seems to have been a confusion in the terms 'Naga' ,'Scythian', 'Aryan' for all the three terms are different. also the link provided for the Kadamba aided migration isnt valid as mentioned above (and also some being blogs). maybe too much of info (and contradicting) is marring a good work.what do you say?

I had come across this blog on Nair history which is really a good,rich source of information. though cant be used as a link directly it could help in the making the present page richer.

http://historicalleys.blogspot.com/2009/08/on-origin-of-nairs.html

(ie if you havent used it already)

regards Tej smiles (talk) 18:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

you are right tej.....there is no mention of kadambas in kerala history, the rashtrakutas claim to have overrun kerala ( but that is doubtful too!). so it is time for one of the moderators to remove the kadamba link too!!!.. the scythian origin of the nairs is based mainly on their naga origin, and supposing that nagas were one of the first offshoots of scythians to have invaded india, risley's racial classification is outdated and his scytho- dravidians contain many biologically different racial groups,why his dravidians include both the nairs and santals( tribals) who are very divergent racially. the greatest problem in any community in india for claiming scythian roots is one does not quite know the racial make up of the scythians- some claim them to be mediterranean , some say they are similar to the white huns( blue eyed and blonde) and yet other sources claim them to be mongoloid!!! however even if the scythians were not matrilineal, their neighbours the sarmatians quite certainly were, so that opens quite another theory!Vivwiki (talk) 19:30, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

user tej's assertion that alupas arrived before kadambas is wrong the kadamba rule in karnataks starts in 345 C.E the alupas rule begins in 450 C.E. clearly 105 years later.also nambudiri were present in kerala before haha do read some works by ems namboodiripad on it.namboodris came very much later.Linguisticgeek (talk) 03:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The Rashtrakuta claim of overrunning Kerala and Pandya countries is mentioned in one of their inscriptions (Karad inscription i suppose) though i dont know what the local history has to say about it. Again, i suppose scythian is being confused with Naga here. The reference to Naga has always been of those people who formed bulk of population not belonging to the Dravidian or Munda stock (The erm Dravidian in racial sense is itself a suspect). It is possible the Satavahanas might have belonged to that stock (there is reference to some of their kings marrying Naga princesses and also some Gupta kings). For all these to take place the ideal time should be around 400-100 B.C (3-4th cent.AD for Guptas)(the dialect of Paisaci which is now extinct is believed to be of the Nagas of central India and it was the language of the 1rst Satavahana king according to legends) The Scythians on the other hand get their name by populating the region of Scythia in modern Afghanistan and as history is proof that region has been a main base for the mixing of people coming from east and west (Mongolia and Eurasian grasslands) and then to naturally drift down south towards the rich country of India. It is a known fact that many Greeks intermarried and settled in the region indianising their customs giving rise to the dynasty of Ino-Scythians. But the common people apart from Greek overlords must have remained the same, say a product of Eastern and western people, which MAY explain the Scythians involving both Mongoloid and Hun features.And the Greek-Scythian invasion took place only after the Sungas became weak ie around 1rst cent.AD. one of the basic things we need to understand here is that no race in itself is pure (apart from the secluded Jarawas of Andaman denoting Negroid element, maybe). Risleys classification says that the Scytho-Dravidians (the term itself should suggest its not a race in strict sense but a stock of people with similar characteristics) spread all across the western Ghats from Gujarat-Coorg. Gujarat being the base of Sakas during 1rst cent AD could add credence to this assumption. He says that the scythian or dravidian element depended on the class of people varying in proportion according to it. here again we shouldnt be confusing the term 'dravidian' to non-white people of India (which North-Indians usually do calling all North-Indians as Aryans and all South-Indians as Dravidians). There is a base of Negroid element which is very rare(, followed by Proto-Australoid which is mostly found in the eastern part of peninsula (and which User Linguisticgeek usually ascribes me to:) ) and the Mediterranean part, which forms the major chunk. But precisely even this term of Dravidian doesnt hold true for a region like Kerala or Coastal Karnataka, given the rich history of being the meeting point of cultures. Arabs,Greeks,Jews,Romans, Egyptians,Iranians,Portuguese,Dutch,English everybody have been here. and the intermingling has been a truth. It is a known fact that in early centuries (1rst and 2nd AD),the Greek and Roman soldiers worked as paid militia and even formed the local king's bodyguards. they eventually settled marrying local women. So did some kings do in marrying the females of this group. One of the earliest reference to Kannada literature is the reference to the Scrolls found in Egypt's east coast about a King of Malpe marrying a Greek princess(?).

About Alupas i stand by my point. he Gazzetteer and the History of Karnataka series considers them one of the oldest continuous line of rulers even before the Kadambas. The history of Tulunad itself has rich continuous sources compared to that of mainland Karnataka and hence forms the basis for the history of Karnataka as a whole.

But have to mention the term Naga is one mystery in the annals of History of India. They find enormous reference and yet very less is known about them. I suppose most of the info was lost in the initial foolish wrangling between the hisory of the so called 'Aryan' element and' Dravidian' element. Lets hope for more on the subject!!

Tej smiles (talk) 09:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

ok first risleys classification is not gospel truth.it is not widely accepted.second the alupas come after the kadambas,ask anybody there is no proof of alupa existence before kadambas.the first alupa king is Pashupathi.his rule begins in 450 C.E. second gentic studies on nair,there is link on main page you can search clearly points to them having non-native origins.gentic studies on bunts point to similar results,done by some expatriate bunts.and the scytho-dravidian term has been most used to describe marathas a warrior caste very much like bunts and nairs not all people on the western coast of india.and this crazy theory that people among bunts and nairs who look very much caucasian due to intermarriage with roman/greek is utter nonsense.the brahmins of tulu nadu and kerala as well as bunts and nairs don't make a presence before 3rd century C.E. also epigraphical evidence regarding the presence of the these communities comes even later from the ninth century C.E. also it is known fact and has been discussed on this talk page (see the archives) that scythians did have serpent has their totem and practicesed matriarchy.also i think this malpe prince marrying a greek princess is a story from Charition Mime i guess.it does not prove anything expect that it is just a story. like many a greek epics (fiction).another thing the nagas in the epics describe themselves as arya.the bunt/nair and brahmins of tulu nadu/kerala are a separate set of population from the rest of people in these regions.most western scholars(notably thurston aand fawcett who talk abt bunts and nairs having a fine nose which is the most important feauture while deciding racial origins) have described nair and bunts as distinct population group not the whole population of west coast.also mr Tej smiles wikipedia is not a place for original research so the drastic changes you propose is not for wikipedia.

and one more thing i am fed up of people who come up with their own theories why not read the nair talk page archives where everything that we are again talking has been discussed.and the article in it's present form is a result of which.Linguisticgeek (talk) 10:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Ignore this Tej guy. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 13:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Ignore or no ignore, you've not been able to substantiate on the unverifiable links regarding Inscriptions in Shimoga as mentioned above. Shouldnt the article therefore have a dispute tag and cleanup tags for this as you both (Linguisticgeek & Suresh.Varma.123) have tried to put up on other pages for exactly the same reason?! .Glad there are other knowledgable people out there on blogs still, open to discuss Nair history and i should commend here for being open to reasonable discussions. about others, Better dont preach which you dont practice. Goodluck:)

Tej smiles (talk) 14:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

mr tej you are welcome to go on the blogs and live in your dream world that the toddy tapping backward class like the namadhari naik are actually scythians.anyways raghu ks the man you spoke to has also called your additiion unverifiable.the billava and ezhava are better they don't deny their origins infact are proud of it,learn something from them.anyways what you are doing is called borderline vandalism.removing legimate tags and reverting edits by three contributors me suresh varma and arjun.also you say that you are victim of racial bias.what does that mean you agree to be a proto-australoid negroid.if you really had any scythian origins you wouldn't be complaining of racial bias.nobody issued the race issue except you.anyways keep your pov out of wikipedia.by the Vivwiki hasn't supported any of you pov.Linguisticgeek (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

my reply on your page dear.

Tej smiles (talk) 14:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Just stop your BS and comment on the Namdhari talk page. We are tired of POV pushing here. Axxn (talk) 17:40, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Is Mannathu Padmanabhan a Nair?

Latest comment: 13 years ago7 comments6 people in discussion

I don't think it is appropriate to include the photo of Sri. Mannathu Padmanabhan on Nair page. His father was a Namboothiri (Eswaran Namboothiri). So he is not a pure Nair. Did you guys know that John Abraham (film actor) was excluded form Syrian Malabar Nasrani page because his mother is a Parsi despite the fact that his father is a Nazrani? I think Nair community has enough "pure Nairs" to be shown on this page.★★★PROCEDAMUS IN PACE★★★ REPLY 15:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

You must be mentally deranged to call Mannathu Padmanabhan a non-Nair. Also, if someone removed John Abraham from the Syrian page, that does not mean that Syrians have the right to remove anything from the Nair page. I thought Syrians were a high class community who worry more about their own business than picking up fights with others. What I am now seeing is a repetition of Ezhava vandalism on various Kerala related articles (Constantly vandalizing articles belonging to the Nair community and starting blogs to insult the Nair community..... hmmm.. with fake Christian names) Actually there are some behavioral attitudes which separates the so called "high castes" from other people. Attacking another high ranking community due to jealousy is definitely not amongst them. If John Abraham was excluded from the Syrian page, it was because you lacked the balls to prevent it. Don't blame others for your failure. See this if you still can't understand anything. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 17:04, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

am i supposed to laugh or cry at this haha Sri. Mannathu Padmanabhan is not a nair.lol never heard anything funnier and more ill informed views than this.and wot exactly has a half caste model turned actor who can't even speak malayalam got to do with the nair page.has this chap forgotten nairs are matrilineal and the nair - namboodiri relationship or for that matter that namboodiris of payyanur are actually matrilineal.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Namboothiris have married many Nair women through "Sambandham" and given birth to many "pure"(LOL) Nairs. So, to be a Nair, one's father can be a Namboothiri too (if mother is Nair). About John Abraham - to be a Syrian Malabar Nasrani you have to be a Christian first (very much like "to be a Nair You have to be Hindu first") which he has never declared to be. That is the reason, John does not figure as a Nasrani - Not because some one lost their balls! Arjun^codename024 13:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

First of all I would like to say that I did not want to hurt anybody's feelings. Dear Suresh Varma, kindly note that I did not "remove" even a single word from the Nair page. It is not a case of "high castes" or "low castes". It simply means that you people still believe it caste system. I was just putting forward a recommendation which you are free to consider or ignore. But what I said here was true. The wikipedia article on Sri. Mannathu Padmanabhan itself says that his father was a Namboothiri. If you think it's OK, then I don't have any problem. It is really funny somebody saying I am an Ezhava with fake Christian name. I don't know why article Pulasyam is shameful to Nairs. Writing obscenity in Malayalam on my talk page will only disgrace your community. I know to respond in the same manner, but I won't. It is because I belong to the so called "high class" Syrian community.★★★PROCEDAMUS IN PACE★★★ REPLY 10:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

so called "high class" ?? who calls? 117.204.90.200 (talk) 12:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi InarZan2, Nairs are matrilinial so a person is a Nair so long as the mother is a Nair. The father could be another Nair, but could also be a Nambudiri, Samanthan, Varma or even an Iyer or Embranthiri (though marriage with Iyers was looked down upon). In bygone times, Nair-Nambudiri couples were just as common as Nair-Nair couples, and it is not an underestimation to say that nearly all Nairs have at least one traceable Nambudiri ancestor. I have known Nairs who have more Nambudiri ancestry than Nair ancestry! (but they are 110% Nair!) So being Nair implies Nambudiri blood, just as being Italian implies that a person is also a European.138.217.159.181 (talk) 03:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Pulasyam

Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Pls have a look at the article Pulasyam created by User:InarZan2. I think its gotta go AFD. comments pls ..Arjun^codename024 13:19, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pulasyam Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 16:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

status of the vaniya nair and maniyani

Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

does anybody have any idea about the vaniya nair and maniyani of north malabar...most of them attach nair as a surname... what are their origins?.. are vaniya nairs same as chakkala nairs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 19:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Vaniya or Vanik in fact are Vaishyas or traders and are positioned above the 'Sudra' in caste Herarchy. If the Vaniyas are considered as inferior to 'Nairs proper' it is only because the former are immigrants from Andhra and Tamilnadu.The unique custom of Sambandham or liason with Nambuthiri Brahmins created caste confusion, and prevented Nairs of Kerala from identifying with the Sudra varna and the caste structures prevalent elsewhere in India. That 'd explain the assertion of caste superiority to 'vaisya' immigrants from across the border.W!(Kavya Madhavan , P T usha and V P Satyan(late footballer) are famous people from the Chalia/Vaniya Nair community from Malabar, whereas T V Madhusudan (tainted Police Chief) is from the Maniyani Nair community.) While on the subject, it would not be out of place to recall that the Nambiars of North Malabar are reluctant,, in general, to consider themselves as part of the Nair diaspora.ChandyChandigarh (talk) 06:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Emotional outbursts! Loud proclamations! As to the karanavars controlling Nambuthiris , one wonders why they still 'permitted' Sambandham! 'Driving from the back seat' was prevalent all through history, including those of the courts of Roman Emperors!By the way, Maraars and other Ambalavaasis do not wear the sacred thread, which demarcates the upper varnas viz.Brahmana, Kshatriya and the Vysya. (I do not know whether all the three are considered as Dvija or the twice-born, or whether the distinction is reserved for the Brahmana alone!)ChandyChandigarh (talk) 10:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Vaniya nairs are believed to be immigrants from sourashtra and andra pradhesh . They are the group which is very closest to namboothiris regarding DNA even without presence of wide sambandham relationship with namboothiris likewise of other nairs subcastes . (https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-2891-p-6.html?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=b391eac92d639c5c31bcdfd48e44c19b465ccf5f-1582251800-0-AQPPvpdTYv5HPCJjRR3iXupYC-Bmfe1TCFwPmQvQlkr4xiJC9wN_QXvUlXQ7l19EPMt3rtqpp2UFryIahtRsRS1wSNt3BIS8-f8KrtTvQgNJmdJ1QT6B0w_CsEt4iB3RXAKe3BJ43UWBLs_WZ4aQLSJ-UXiaJMkTRbEcXDY45xX1xy5AHXp343jeJMg4Pn5tEte0SkFzzG7UYwrCcYsm5CVSOIhM1UIOQN2nsRYszrZh5mlMlcuUkINSWeLoPTAUu_MCyY2Mw7wt1wdHie7akdsIb0c364thpn1NdCTXWk_YIYr--HkvCr2XkirGEA7ndg)

Historians such as william logan and Fred Fawcett included vaniya as a nair caste only in their books but not maniyani or chaliya

While it is clear that maniyanis and claiyas were not considered to be nairs and was not even mentioned in books about nayars of malabar, But locals consider maniyani and chaliyas to be equal as inferior nairs and vaniya as a intermediate nair or equivalent to intermediate nair castes even back then.

Nayars of Malabar- Fred Fawcett mentioned that Vaniyars were higher than nair subcastes such as pallichan nair and oorali nairs where they took women to have sambandham with and now these castes(Pallichan and oorali nairs) are under NSS and mainstream nair community while vaniya is not.

They were Vaishyas before migrating to malabar regions of kerala but since the viashya varna didn't existed in kerala they were absorbed in to Nair caste (There is a story the kolathiri rajas granted them the right to use Nair surname) Technically they were definitely above Shudra Nairs of kerala since they were vaishyas but since they are immigrants like all other immigrants groups(Iyer,embranthiri etc) they had no power like indegeneous Nampoothiris and Nairs . The payyannur paattu which is believed to be the one of the oldest literature in malayalam is indeed about history of vaniyas,In that it is clearely mentioned as they were immigrants came crossing the sea (Indicating they came through coastal areas) and did had chettiyar surname (Vaishya surname in south india) The maniyanis(yadava migrants from tamilnadu) and chaliyas(migrants from tamil nadu)are treated inferior to vaniyas

The ranking of these 3 castes in malabar is like (Especially in kannur)

1:Vaniya

2:maniyani

3:chaliya

Maniyanis perform poorakali in muchilottu temples "the tutelary temples" of vaniyars. Vaniyars was also used to be militants and possesed PadaNair titles of the armies of local kings in malabar such as kolathiri and kottayam and there was vaniya nair land lord families such as thoonoli, Puthukudi, and puthalath etc which possessed vast lands during raja era like nambiar lords( There is a famous vaniyar tharavadu in mattannur-kannur where vaniya padanair fort is still there). Infact the story associated with muchilottu bhagavathi the tutelary diety of vaniya is about muchilottu Pada Nair who is a vaniya by birth (The thaliyolas and thottam paattu are at least 1500 years old which leads that the vaniya were mainstream nairs and had titles such as pada nairs even before the formation of many other nair sub castes)

Famous late business man Krishnan Nair(Leela group) and former calicut district collector Prasanth Nair are famous Vaniya Nairs Satvikgeetha

chaliya and maniyanis

Maniyanis are believed to be yadava migrants and is usually placed above chaliyas but both generally had nair inferior status. Maniyanis were mainly involved in cattle grazing, milk production and construction while chaliya were cloth producers. But these castes were never mentioned in mainstream history books as nairs. Both communities practices endogamy. Famous actress kavya madhavan is from chaliya community.