Talk:Music of Mongolia/Archive 1

Archive 1

English name for "Urtiin duu"

"Long-song" is not a good translation of the "Urtiin duu". The Mongolian term is "urtiin", but not "urt". These songs are usually short, not longer than 3-4 minutes. Their main feature is the prolonged vibrating notes (this feature is also heard in the songs of many other Asian peoples) on vowels and the closest musical term for them is "tenuto". These majestic prolonged vibrating notes give the song profound philosophical, meditational character and they also depict the spacious mountain valleys. The Russian translation is "Протяжная песня", not "Длинная песня". And the English language deserves a better translation than "long song". As a translator, I translate "urtiin duu" as "tenuto song". I am aware "long song" is widely used, however this term fails to describe the genre right. Gantuya eng 13:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You are a bit right with your opinion but I know also many examples of „Urtiin duu“ last longer than 4 minutes. „Urtiin“ is the genitiv of „urt“. But everybody in and outside of Mongolia including all scientific papers or books characterise this style of songs „Urtiin duu“ or „long songs“. It would be confusing to rename „long song“ into „tenuto song“. 14 August 2007, (Hangarid)

You are right. It is registered as a UNESCO intangible heritage under the name "urtiin duu" with translation "long song". I have got a recording with Urtiin Duu -- there are 5 Urtiin Duu of which 3 last less than 3 minutes, 1 lasts less than 4 minutes and only 1 lasts 5:26 minutes. They are with no sophisticated arrangement--just in their natural form, accompanied by morin huur only. Of course they may sound much longer with sophisticated modern arrangement.

You made a good point that "urtiin" is a genitive of "urt". Genitive makes the meaning diffierent form flat "long". This doesn't quite mean that this "song is long", but it means "song of something which is long". And that "something which is long" is, firstly, the long notes. This is the "song of long notes-tenuto notes" (with vibrato). Secondly, "urtiin" may make even more profound meanings.

Changing the translation doesn't mean changing the name itself. The term "Urtiin Duu" has been in the Mongolian language for centuries and it is not to be changed. But the translation can be changed, even if it is in the UNESCO documents already. Even the English spellings of "Chinggis", "Ulan-Bator", etc, have been changing many times. Concerning confusions, the word "long song" may make a listener think this song is long and therefore tiring. Gantuya eng 13:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with most you have written. I want add only: The length of a „urtiin duu“ (also the vibrato) depends on the style, the ethnic, the performance of the singer and the counts of chanted stanzas. I don´t mean arrangements but the original chanted „duu“ in the rural areas mostly without any instrumental accompaniment. The text „Long-songs“ of Wikipedia describes that the name „long-song“ doesn´t mean that it is of long duration. Please do your additions, but I would not change the headline. „Urtiin duu“ is known as „long song“ – correct translated or not – and you cannot change the worldwide translation. Why do you not add „tenuto song“ in brackets beside it? 16 August 2007, (Hangarid)

Yes, they distinguish the following styles of Urtiin Duu: Besreg Urtiin Duu (in Russian, simply протяжная песня), Urtiin Duu (in Russian, величаво-протяжная песня) and Aizam Urtiin Duu (in Rissian, торжественно-протяжная песня). Besreg Urtiin Duu is the least complicated one while the other two require more skills from the singer.

I also translated it "long song" in the beginning of my career, but I didn't like this translation from the very beginning. I tried many other versions and at last came to "tenuto-song". The phrase "long song" emerged when the Mongolian-English translators were generally inexperienced. This phrase "long song" is so dodgy that Wikipedia even had to explain that this doesn't refer to the duration. You say the phrase "long song" is a worldwide translation, but the Mongolians insist, for example, on "Chinggis Khaan" VS "Genghis Khan" which is also a "worldwide" spelling, which has been around not for decades but for centuries. Gantuya eng 14:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Even if "tenuto song" would be technically more correct, it is still a neologism that hardly anyone else uses, so it has no place in Wikipedia. It is not our task to decide which name is correct or not. It is our task to document the name that is commonly used. Consequently, there is no viable alternative other than using the established English name "long song". Of course, the exact meaning of the Mongolian name should still be explained. --Latebird 17:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I have used "tenuto song" in the translations for some UNESCO projects. I thought they would change it to "long song", but later I saw they'd left it as it is. Gantuya eng 02:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

In that case you coined a new term for them (and apparently nobody noticed), which can't be relevant for Wikipedia. If most English language sources use "long song", then we must do the same. The relevant guideline here is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). --Latebird 09:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I want to add that singing of “besreg urtiin duu” doesn´t mean that a singer hasn´t enough skills, it can mean that an ethnic tribe has a repertoire of traditional “besreg urtiin duu” only. 16 August 2007, (Hangarid)

Sure Gantuya eng 01:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Gantuya, because you are interested, today I listened a 1967 recorded „besreg urtiin duu“ which lasted 13:10 minutes. 19 August 2007, (Hangarid)

Do you mean that Urtiin Duu is necessarily a "looong song" because it has a looong duration? Gantuya eng 19:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn´t say. But I thought you are interested in music and infos. Also you wrote in an earlier add about the length of urtiin duu you heard. 19 August 2007, (Hangarid) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.3.113.169 (talk) 20:16:04, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

OK, thank you for the info. You are kind. Gantuya eng 02:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Horse-head fiddle / Morin Khuur

„Uligershin“ is the name of singers who perform fables only. Anyway the sentence is wrong as the „morin khuur“ is used to accompy a large number of different song styles.

The sentence you have deleted seems to mean that morinhuur was originally used by uligerchins. Whether it is true or not, I don't know. Gantuya eng 12:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Schlager or country music?

IMO people like Batsükh, Javkhlan & Bayasgalan etc. are much closer to what Germans call Volkstümliche Musik than to Schlager. Topics like homesickness, longing for mother/father etc. are borrowed from age-old tradition, and also the music seems to use traditional elements (instruments, khömii), at least as an ornament and from time to time. Schlager would be more like that Khiliin zastavyn khar nüden büsgüi song. Yaan 21:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations with your deep knowledge of the Mongolian culture! Yes, many Mongolian musicians, especially rockers, call these (I think metaphorically) "country music" in contrast to rock/pop/hip which they call "city music". Less metaphorically Batsükh, Javkhlan, Bayasgalan & Khiliin zastavyn khar nüden büsgüi song are all included in a category of "нийтийн дуу" or "mass songs" (USSR also had "массовая песня"). They all used to use the traditional instruments, but now use synthesised accompanement. In addition there is another form of "нийтийн дуу" which uses Symphonic orchestra (Zangad, Purevdorj, Dolgor) and this kind cannot be thought of as a "country music" (in my perception). "нийтийн дуу" isn't limited to melancholic topics. Russian press uses terms "массовая песня" and "schlager" synonymically, especially referring to the most simple and popular ones. That's the reason I titled the article Schlager. Correct me if I am wrong. Gantuya eng 00:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. To me as a German, Schlager is more like Modern Talking or Dschingis Khan (who you probably know) or particularly Roy Black or Roland Kaiser (who you might not know), i.e. quite independent from tradition, kind of like pop music, but maybe less sophisticated. But maybe English speakers have a different perception what makes a schlager, and there is no definite characterization. But if we can agree that Batsükh & co have / aim at a more rural rather than a more urban image, I think country music might be at least one appropriate term. Or maybe folk music? Yaan 01:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, really? (Modern Talking & Dschingis Khan are schlagerists) For Russians and Mongolians they were a kind of disco or rock. Batsükh-like music imitates to certain degree folk songs, but they are called "зохиолын дуу" to distinguish from folk songs, whose authors are unknown. Of course, there is no clear boundary for "schlager"--any kind of popular and simple song (usually short-living) can be called a "schalger". We can use the term "зохиолын дуу" or "нийтийн дуу" for these songs. I think in any case they should be separate from rock/hip. Gantuya eng 03:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've thought of changing the title "Schlagers" as we discussed this is not quite the term. For example a simple rock-n-roll can be a schalger. Thus "schalger" describes the way of its being popular rather than the style. Gantuya eng 07:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not happy with "Schlager" here either. I think the best English term for the German "Volkstümliche Musik" is "Popular folk music". --Latebird 13:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I also think "schlager" should change to "popular folk music." I added my translation of "zohioliin duu."I think a zohioliin duu is at once more sophisticated and more specific, both in topics and structure, than a schlager. Silkroadfreeways (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

As the article Volkstümliche Musik itself explains, this genre is closely related to schlager. Many Germans frown upon Volkstümliche Musik, not only many young people, but also many who are familiar with traditional folk music object to the confusion of Volkstümliche Musik with traditional folk music. In fact, there has been a revival of (often rather ironic) appreciation of the big hits of seventies schlager since the nineties (in the context of a general seventies retro wave, rediscovery and nostalgia), but that doesn't necessarily (or even usually) extend to the more recent Volkstümliche Musik, which is often viewed as not only tacky and kitschy, but also bland, formulaic and exchangeable. Even Heino is excluded from the reappreciation trend, despite the fact that his rise preceded the explosion of Volkstümliche Musik, that his voice, appearance and at least some of his hits are rather distinctive, and that he is also well-known for interpreting traditional material. Helene Fischer, however, has gained a wide following even among younger people, but then, her songs are typical schlager. Of course it differs, and the boundaries are fuzzy in the first place, but a lot of material marketed in the Volkstümliche Musik context has nothing particularly folksy (not even use of region-specific markers such as dialect or themes, except generic allusions to rural elements, and not necessarily even that) and may be described as essentially typical schlager. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:56, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Amarkhuu

Is Amarkhuu a citizen of Mongolia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gantuya eng (talk • contribs) 10:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I also just discovered this article today. Apparently he is the son of an acrobat of the Mongolian State Circus, who left Mongolia for Ulan Ude some time ago. Whether he really should be listed under "Mongolian music" is a different question, though... --Latebird 13:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Dances

How about dances? Gantuya eng 13:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that should be a seperate article. --Latebird 13:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Oirat culture in MPR

Oirat culture was popular and loved during MPR. The set of dances of ethnic groups by Sevjid, the oirat biyelgee, which was shown on TV every weekend, the festival of indiginous arts (Yazguur Urlagiin Naadam) where Western Mongolians won many medals, Jangariada tought at school on the subject of literature, all these are evidence that Oirat culture was treasured. Even the MPRP leader, Tsedenbal himself, was an Oirat and he promoted many of his river-mates to high political posts. In addition, the Kazakh culture was also treasured and prosperred in MPR. Gantuya eng 09:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Gantuy, if the conversations with all the old singers are no reference for you then I will add a scientific reference tomorrow. I await that in future you add references for every of your changes! Because you are not all-knowing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.98.134 (talk) 13:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"Conversations with all the old singers" can only be accepted as reference if they have been published independently elsewhere. If we just have to take your word for it, then it's Original Research, which Wikipedia can't and doesn't accept. I'd also like to remind you to remain civil at all times in discussions, and not to try to make a point. --Latebird 19:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

At least spell my name right Gantuya eng 14:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Jangariade was taught at school as one of the three pillars of the Mongolian literature together with the Secret History and Geseriade?

Mr. Badraa (Om mani badme hum) talked about and promoted the music of various ethnicities, especially of the Western ones?

I've got a book of collections of Oirat songs and a book of the Oirat epos "Dani Kurel". They were published in Ulaanbaatar in 1980s, during Communism.

Please be invited to go to Galdan Boshughtu Khan, Queen Anu, Erdeni Batur and/or Dzungars and make a productive contribution.

Gantuya eng 16:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Your style is not my style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.98.134 (talk) 09:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

1) Hi, why is the ISBN you gave for this book different from that available to me?

2) I suggest you to create an article about the Oirat culture of Oirat music on Wikipedia. Gantuya eng 11:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

1) hard-copy, paperback 2) I suggest you create an article about non-traditional music —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.98.134 (talk) 12:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I created this section Mongolia#Popular music. It covers rock/pop only. Do you have a say about jazz? Gantuya eng 12:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

repression and force

I think the statements about repression and force in the introduction need eíther some more elaboration or should be removed. In which way were musicians repressed? I assume that aspects of indigenous culture like lamaism or shamanism are not really relevant here, even though both do make heavy use of their respective special kinds of music. In which way were Khalkha musical ideas forced upon the other groups? I don't doubt that there is a certain degree of Khalkha-ization in the country, but I wonder if this is really a result of communism and use of force or rather a normal result of steady cultural influence, similar to what can be observed in non-communist, not-Khalkha-dominated countries like, maybe, France. Yaan 11:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The traditional culture experienced certain damage due to Communist ideology. But this damage affected the culture of all exthnic groups equally. Khalha culture also suffered. There were dances under all ethnic group names except Khalha. There were Bayad dance, Derbet dance, Hotan dance, etc. But there was no Khalha dance (officially) until 1990. Why? I don't know. Literature suffered. Folk songs suffered. Verses were cut out if any religious or nationalist elements were found in them. At least they changed the words. Some songs were prohibited. The traditional literary language was forgotten and Ts. Damdinsuren invented new literary language together with the Cyrillic script. The traditional literary language developed during Ligdan Khaan when a lot of Buddhist scriptures were translated (or maybe during the time of the Secret History). The films of the Communist epoch are still admired for the talent of the "golden age" actors. But the meaning of those films are complete anti-Buddhism and a lot of distortion of history. So the whole Mongolian culture suffered, not only Oirat culture. At school they taught that "Secret History", "Jangar Saga" and "Gesar Saga" are the three pillars of the Mongolian literature. "Jangar Saga" is an important part of Oirat culture. Which of these 3 is Khalha? User "193.171.98.134" has shown a reference to an Americal researcher (Pegg, Carole. "Mongolian Music, Dance, and Oral Narrative: Performing Diverse Identities". 2001. University of Washington Press. Book & CD. ISBN 0-295-98112-1, p256, p275, p276). Three pages! We have to order that book and check what is actually written there. Do other sources support her discovery? After all, some of the inhabitants of MPR are still alive. Gantuya eng 13:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No further source is needed, everybody is free to read the cited pages. But you are free to give a detailed source for your opposing thesis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 09:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

User "193.171.98.134" didn't cite anything. S/he only made a reference. These are different things. S/he even doesn't describe how it was repressed. It's not creative at all. Gantuya eng 11:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Since your statements are contested, you DO need to show that your source is representative of general knowledge, and not just the peronal opinion of a single author. It's not enought to provide just some source. It must be reliable and accepted by the wider scientific community. This is the first source I hear about that seems to single out the oirats as suffering more cultural damage than the remaining population of Mongolia. Such an exceptional claim clearly needs better references. The title of your book already suggests some bias. --Latebird 09:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I really can't understand how the Oirat culture was repressed. Jangariade taught in every school and ensemble Soyol Erdene making the Oirat song "Tonjoo" famous with rock arrangement in 1970's are bright examples of Oirat culture being cherished in MPR. Gantuya eng 10:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I propose, first to read the book before you deliver commentaries. To disbelieve an author who is a well known scientist and ethnomusicologist based on a book title only is unscientifically. After reading the book you will know, that a large part of the book discusses also the traditional music of non-oirat mongolian ethnics. The latter becomes confirmed, after reading the titles of her publication list.

Your doubts are personal views. I gave a source, but I am awaiting any sources of contrary personal opinion. State me a scientific source of an ethnomusicologist (mongolian or not) and not your personally view. I think that I comply with the conditions of Wikipedia in this matter. And Gantuya, I know the song Tonjoo, not in strange rock arrangement or speech but in traditionel version (bright example) and I can list you also several publications who deal with the song. During the communist period such oirat songs used of the purposes to serve the folklore. And relating to your sentence: “After all, some of the inhabitants of MPR are still alive.” – don´t forget, that we speak about music. This and other sentences show, that the reasons of your doubts base on different motives. Regards, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 08:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have run out of rational arguments, if you now need to resort to personal attacks. I think this discussion has come to an end. Several editors are disputing your edits and the reliability of your source, and you are obviously unable to back them up further. --Latebird 09:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

How do you think this article should benefit from your statement of repression of Oirat music? If you really have serious arguments, that should be an interesting topic for a separate article. We haven't been as lucky as you to read your scientific book. And we would deeply appreciate if you cite those sentences from your scientific book. Please don't hide it. By the inhabitants of MPR I mean the thousands of Mongolians who enjoyed Oirat, Buriat and Kazakh songs and dances during Communism. I'm not praising Communism, I just seek fair and balanced information. Gantuya eng 09:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Баруун Монголын олон ястан ард тvмний урлагийн ууган байгууллага “Улаан гэр” цєєн тооны уран сайханчидтайгаар 1934 онд байгуулагдаж 1936 онд клуб, 1941 онд театрчилсан клуб болон єргєжжээ.Тэр vед аймгийн хоер театр /Дорнод аймаг/ байгуулсны нэгийг Ховд аймагт хєгжим, бvжиг, жvжгийн анги бvхий 40 уран бvтээлчтэйгээр аймгийн хєгжим драмын театрыг 1950 оны 11 дvгээр сарын 25-нд байгуулсан байна. Yзэгч олондоо хvндлэгдэн алдаршсан урлагийн мэргэжлийн томоохон байгууллага болж тєрийн дээд шагнал ”Алтан гадас “ одонт хєгжим драмын театрын урын сан хємрєг нь байнга арвижиж улс, бvсийн урлагийн наадам уралдаан тэмцээнд байнга хошуучилж ардын язгуур урлагийг хєгжvvлэхэд залуу, єсвєр vед євлvvлэх хvндтэй vvрэг гvйцэтгэж байна. http://www.pmis.gov.mn/hovd/index.php?m23

It turns out that Hovd theatre is one of the first 2 aimag theatres. Gantuya eng 09:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you want to say with your last sentence? The theatre was controlled and the music regulated from Ulaanbaatar that time. It´s no source for this question. Give me a scientific source of an ethnomusicologist. You are free to buy the available book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 10:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I mean they invested in the Hovd theatre first.

Every cultural organisation regardless of location or ethnic considerations were under strict Communist censorship.

I can't afford to buy that book. It's too expensive for me. That's why I beg you to cite those sentences from it. Hope it won't be a copyright violation because you have mentioned the author and the book. Gantuya eng 10:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

That the Khovd theatre was built in early times is no argument for your opinion. That the population was provided with “culture” is clear but what was the aim - not the assistance of the local music which was performed traditionally, but to serve after the political and folkloristic standards given from Ulaanbaatar. Give me only one citation assisting your argument. You will not find any. Every musicologist I have spoken (mainly Mongolian) gave me the same information. If the price is high for you, you can use a delivery service of scientific libraries. Prices are low. It´s not an old mongolian publication with an edition of 300 pieces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 10:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

So you refuse to cite it for us. I am not going to write a Master thesis in music and have no time to be dealing with the libraries. You know that. If you've really read the book, you would be able to tell us how Dr. Carole Pegg develops the idea and what sources she refers to. Unfortunately you refuse to do that. Don't you feel it sinful to slander the peaceful, submissive and Buddha-fearing people of discrimination against their brothers? Do you feel it appropriate to use the name of Dr. Carole Pegg for your doubful claim? Gantuya eng 11:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

My included sentence was “In Mongolia, Communist control led to the forced cultural domination of the Khalkhas, who are the largest ethnic group in the country.” For this add I gave the source. I gave a correct citation. I don’t have to mention sources of a source etc. You don´t have to claim, all the more you didn´t give me a diffent source. That you don´t want to borrow the book from a library show, that you are not really interested in the music and in the case, but you have different motives. To write a sentence like your last one without reading the book is unhonestly. And the sentence before is only an insult, it should be your style but it´s not my one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 11:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not enough. You mentioned 3 pages. I don't think that she repeated the same sentence on 3 pages. You are not showing how she justifies her claim. Be serious. This claim "forced cultural domination of the Khalkhas" creates a very negative image of Mongolia. Seriously!!! I don't know which country you are from, but you must be responsible for what you are saying. If you have seriously decided to make such a claim you must scientifically justify it. Don't just use the book of Dr. Pegg as a shield. I don't see you using this book "scientifilcally" as you like to express. Gantuya eng 12:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

In scientific world the citation of a sentence would be enough. Don´t argue without reading the book that I used always the same sentence. Be serious. Why should the sentence create a negative image of Mongolia – especially in the time we live today? As I know consists the Mongolian population of 21 ethnics (depending of the census) and not only one. I thought the Wikipedia cyclopedia is to give true informations and not statements (from persons with different motives) without any citation of a source. I gave a citation (If you want read it or not is your decision.) but I am still awaiting yours!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If you think "discrimination" isn't a negative image these days, you are seriously mistaking. I don't know which soum you are from, but what you are doing is actually discriminating against Khalha. By that, you are also creating a very negative image of the Oirats. The Galdan Boshughtu Khan, Queen Anu, Dzungar and other articles that I edited show how I respect the Oirat people. Have you ever read those articles? Please don't shame the Oirat people in front of the editors. Don't play a false Oiratophil. I don't believe that Dr. Pegg really wrote those dreadful words. Gantuya eng 13:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence. Even if a repression on an ethnic basis was the case (hope it wasn't), this isn't quite relevant to the topic of the article. Also the sentences about the Mongolic minorities in Russia and China together with their repression don't seem to be relevant. Does the article cover the music in the Republic of Mongolia or the music of Mongolic ethnoses around the globe? I think the whole intro needs to be redeveloped. PS: Dr. Pegg is the founder of Mr. Fox band, folk-rock. Gantuya eng 17:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I worte: “In Mongolia, Communist control led to the forced cultural domination of the Khalkhas, who are the largest ethnic group in the country”, I never used the word “repression”, and I think that in an article about „Mongolian Music” this sentence gives information and is of importance. Interestingly you refuse to read the source but you “don´t believe it”. First read it, second mention a source providing contrary arguments, then you can ask for further sources. And Gantuya, if you want to write about Pegg´s biograghy, you should add also her publication list which contains articles of different fields of Mongolian music and intruments, perhaps also her academical carrier, on which University she teaches and in which scientific Journals she is member of the Editorial Board. That the disputed sentence should be of any discrimination (??), etc. is absurd. Don´t remove the sentence without source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 08:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Please DO NOT add this paragraph again until you are able to provide better sources, or to show that your source is accepted (eg. cited) by the scientific community. If you want content to stay in the article, then it is your job to document its relevance and reliability. We do not need extra sources to remove disputed content. Thanks for your cooperation. --Latebird 08:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Latebird, you misrepresent the facts. The source is scientificly credible. Gantuya didn´t read it and also refuse to add a contrary source! Did you you read the source? Pegg is part and also cited of the sientific community. Can Gantuya say the same of herself? To give extra sources is necessary after Gantuya provides only one source. I am awaiting your comment. Greetings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 09:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

No, no, no. How can I say the same of myself? I am no professional in this area. Music is my hobby only. Gantuya eng 09:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Well then, anonymous, prove it, already! And please prove that she is competent as a historian. Being a musician or a music scientist is not enough in this specific context. And please immediately stop your constant personal attacks against Gantuya, or your own credibility will soon be damaged beyond repair. --Latebird 09:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

O.K. Your comment shows that other interests dominate against facts. Latebird, you should read the whole discussion and then pass a judgement who has given personal attacks. Only sympathiy seams to be significant for you. And Gantuya, wish you lot of fun with your hobby. Bye —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 09:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I would still like to see some elaboration. If we'd write about how Buddhism continued to be forcefully removed from Mongolian culture after the 1940s, we could point to the fact that all but one or two monasteries stayed shut until 1990, that the state sponsored an anti-religious museum, that it officially claimed to be atheist, maybe that persecution of individual practitioners continued etc. But what kind of force was applied on musicians? Were they forced to abandon their original repertoire in favor of some state-sponsored folklore, or what happened? I'd really like to know, and on the other hand I don't really like to go through thuis inter-library-loan stuff for it. Re. the two sentences about repression, I think they were added by someone else, and they are still in there. It's of course true that certain aspects of indigenous culture were suppressed. But on the other hand these sentences, as they are now, sound highly trivial, and the relevance to Mongolian music is not explained at all, either Yaan 11:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This article needs a better intro, which would be an appropriate umbrella for the entire content. It needs to be more relevant to the music, less politicised.

"what kind of force was applied on musicians?" I am curious about it too. I interrogated the author of the statement all through the night yesterday, but s/he was like Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya. Gantuya eng 13:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

As long as we don't have credible citations of reliable publications, we don't need to wonder about it. It is the task of the person who wants to add those statements to provide enough material that the other editors are able to verify them. As long as that doesn't happen, the statements must stay out. --Latebird (talk) 18:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems I misled you by splitting this topic. This talk continues in the next section :). Gantuya eng (talk) 12:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"National" VS "Local"

I read a paper by Caroline Pegg (Ritual, Religion and Magic in West Mongolian (Oirad) Heroic Epic Performance) in which she also alludes to Oirad epic singers being targeted for political persecution in the 1930s. Unfortunately she does not elaborate on the topic at all (at least not in the paper), so I do remain sceptical about whether this was specifically anti-Oirad. She gives some statements about forced Halh-ization, but also without elaboration or references.

She does describe how epic texts were altered or abridged to be in better accordance with communist ideology, however. Yaan (talk) 10:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Really? You're lucky to read it! I don't know whether it was the right way of doing things, but I was so curious and impatient that I sent an e-mail to her asking what that was. She kindly replied me. In the e-mail she didn't mention any "repression and force". She formulated it (in the e-mail) as "promotion of Khalha music as national Mongolian music". I meditated on this phrase and would understand it as an answer to the question I raised in the beginning of this talk: "There were dances under all ethnic group names except Khalha. There were Bayad dance, Derbet dance, Hotan dance, etc. But there was no Khalha dance (officially) until 1990. Why?"

They would announce "Derbet folk song", "Buriat dance", "Uzemchin folk song". But never did they announce "Khalha folk song" and "Khalha dance". Because Khalha songs and dances were passing under the name "Mongolian folk song" and "Mongolian dance". It seems like they were shy of using the word "Khalha". That's like announcing a song from Bayern as "Bavarian folk song" and then announcing (deliberately) a song from Sachsen as "German folk song". Gantuya eng (talk) 13:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that avoiding khalkh term (and replacing it with Mongol) was typical for the Socialist ideology. Ideology pays a lot of attention to the names. Name of the country and name of the nation can not be different (in heads of ideologysts). And so Mongolia is populated with Mongols, only several folk differences are, not more... And Ulan Bator rulers were afraid of Moscow, where khalkh instead of mongol could be interpreted as khalkh nationalism. The same was at the Soviet Union Georgia. The selfname of the main nation is sakartvelo (people of Kartli, central region of Georgia) but Mingrelians, Svans, Laz people with different languages were named folk groups of Georgians ...Bogomolov.PL (talk) 14:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly how she explained it. She wrote that phenomenon was common in Soviet republics and also she mentioned Stalinism. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe identifying Saxon and German culture could also mean/imply that Saxons are the most german Germans? Or at least more German than the others? What if the government would declare that Saxon dialect is the standard language, and orthography etc. would be changed accordingly? I don't think there really is a simple answer, also to what exactly constitutes repression or force.

The perception that East Germany was a Saxon-dominated state still has some funny effects sometimes. Maybe latebird can translate this for you. On the other hand Saxons complain that Berlin had a better supply of coffee, exotic fruits etc, or that Saxon construction brigades had to build new flats in Berlin (Berliners will contend that these flats were built for Saxon 'immigrants')

The paper is available via jstor.org. They list the American Center for Mongolian Studies as their only participant in Mongolia. Yaan (talk) 14:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. I don't know anything about the relations between the people of different states of FRG. I brought the example only as an imaginary situation for comparison. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Hip-hop?

If hiphop is to be a section, it's better to make it a subsection within Rock/Pop. Gantuya eng 02:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't think it's necessary to maintain hiphop as a subsection. It needs to be fully incorporated into the Pop music section. Gantuya eng 16:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It also must be supported by independent published sources. Most of the current version is simply the personal opinion of the author, which is not acceptable in Wikipedia. --Latebird 18:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Four months should be enough time to find sources. I've removed the POV parts now. Please don't add them again without good citations. --Latebird (talk) 06:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I've just rstructured the Pop section a bit, but it remains a kind of mess. It would be most welcome to have some newspaper or magazine articles - any kind of articles - to substantiate the claims made here. In the "history of hip hop" part, I couldn't see any qualitative difference between the second and the third phase (with bands such as Vanquish, Tatar, Quiza), so I deleted it.

Then, Gantuya eng introduced the idea of providing external links to video clips from within the article which I deleted. I think this might be a good idea to convey more precisely what it is about, but it on the other hand seems unusual, and then one can search a lot of this oneself, most bands are on youtube. If there are ardent proponents for doing so, we might adapt such a stance, but then consequently. G Purevdorj 12:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Gar

The article Gar (music) has been proposed for deletion. If you can find sources, or expand the article, please do. Cheers, Mostlyharmless (talk) 07:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Other musical instruments

Thank you Latebird for fixing weird links. Silkroadfreeways (talk) 04:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

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