Talk:Mus (card game)

Rewrite

I redid the whole page with these objectives in mind:

- Explaining the basics of the game so an English speaker can understand the rules and follow them.

- Clean up the text so there aren't that many unnecessary Spanish words: for example, IMO, the 'cerdos' nickname for the Kings doesn't add anything to the text and makes it more difficult to follow. If somebody is interested, maybe we can make a new section at the end? note that these nicknames are very regional and not widely recognized.

I understand that this is not a direct translation from the Spanish page anymore, so maybe we should remove the 'translation' note at the bottom.

Todo:

- Add more strategy tips.

- Explain the 'mus corrido' rule to select who is the first player in the first game.

• That's fine - I translated it but never got round to properly copyediting it (or, in fact, copying the scoring over). I think the translation note should be left as there are currently no references (making this original research - which is not allowed). Also adding strategy tips will make it look like even more like a "how to" guide which is not permitted - see WP:NOT (that's why I never translated that section). In my opinion the most important topic that needs adding is the history of the game. And welcome to Wikipedia, by the way. Yomangani^talk 13:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, Yomangani. Thanks for that. These are only the rules of the game as it's commonly played. I can add book sources in Spanish. Is that acceptable? Do they have to be in English? The 'Strategy' section is only a small collection of very basic facts about the game in order to understand it better. I didn't intend it to be a repository of possible techniques to win. Should we change the name of the section? 'Other considerations', maybe? Thanks again for your help.

• Spanish sources are acceptable (although English ones are obviously preferred). I think the strategy section as it stands is fine and could even bear a little expansion. At some point I'll take some photos of some of the hands and some piedras that I have from a set to give the article a bit of colour. Yomangani^talk 14:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I explain here the "ley" thing. In mus, "ley" is the quality of the cards a player has in hand. To have a good "ley" is to have good cards. The "ley del mus" hand is a combination of cards that is good (but not great) for 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds. It's the minimum "ley" that one needs to have; more than that and one has a great hand (3 kings for 1st and 3rd rounds and 31/32 for 4th round are the better ones). There is no reason why the rhyme between "rey" and "ley" would have given the name to this combination. I've read some mus books and I never saw such a thing mentioned. David sancho (talk) 22:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Basque origins

Which eminent researcher claims that "chica" derives from "txikiak"? Could said eminent researcher prove that point? Does the aforementioned eminent researcher know that the word "txiki-" comes form the Spanish "chico/a"? Would our eminent researcher be so kind as to prove that mus comes from "the Basque Country"? Thank you very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.152.15.91 (talk) 18:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I am most surprised because Spanish, rather than Basque, is used as a reference for non-English-language terms.

In particular, I think the comment just below, ironically addressing a so-called "eminent researcher", is pretty disrespectful. How come does its author know that "txiki-" is originally Spanish? Please give some sound (counter)-evidence.

I wonder why s/he did not also comment on such Mus-specific terms as "Hor dago" (lit: 'there it is', meaning 'I bet it all') or "Hamarreko" (lit. 'of 10', meaning a stone that is worth 10 points, though nowadays it is worth 5 points). Both terms are 100% Basque and are commonly used throughout Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.11.192.121 (talk) 18:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

--Sorry I did't sign my comment (just above)! Biscay (talk) 18:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC).

Sometimes it takes a lot to stay calm on wiki... first of all, all wiki articles on mus agree on the Basque origin of the game, see the Spanish wiki article for example. You may also look up all mus related words (such as órdago, mus etc) on the Real Academia Española online database and find the references to the Basque origin. Any good book on the history of card games on the Iberian peninsula will also explain to you the Basque origins of the game. Most terms related to playing mus are either direct loans from Basque or clear glosses and calques. Txikiak is one of them and I'm sorry if that shatters some illusions, 79.152.15.91.

Could I suggest less fire and brimstone and a little more tact and diplomacy next time please? Akerbeltz (talk) 12:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

S/he commented just what s/he commented. One can wonder why s/he didn't mention other mus terms (maybe s/he was saving time to read that deep, lengthy essay on mus by the Kern County Basque Club). Who knows? Anyway, since there doesn't seem to be any reference to the Basque origins of this game as yet, I will contribute by copying the etymology of "chico, -a" given by the Real Academia Española de la Lengua (http://www.rae.es). Oh, and please save some illusions for me to shatter, too.

chico, ca. Del lat. ciccum, cosa de poquísimo valor.

I suggest the following translation:

chico, ca. From the Basque ciccum, a thing of very little value.

Still, I must confess I'm puzzled: does the term "pares" also derive from a Basque word ("pareak")? "Juego" from "jokua"? "La Real" from "Erreala"? Contrary to s/he, I firmly and unshakeably believe so, but I would ask for some references. Thanks!

The Basques use words which ultimately have come from Romance languages too. The common Basque word for a "peer" for example is pare, plural pareak. When the game was adopted by Spanish speakers, it was glossed as pares; same goes for jokua ~ juego (both these are directly derived from Latin, so jokua does not come via Spanish). Txikiak "the small ones" was erroneously glossed as chicas because of the phonetic similarity; why do you think they're also called pequeñas? The point here is that the term chico of course means a number of things in Spanish; but not in Basque. The word ciccum was never a Basque word and not the source for txiki which derives from an earlier form tiki whis is not a Romance loan.

I've found you a source: Azkarate, M. (ed) Elhuyar hiztegia Elhuyar (1996). Under txiki it lists 3. Pequeña (en el mus). As for mus itself, Aulestia, G. Basque English Dictionary University of Nevada Press 1989: mus n. kind of Basque card game. I think that should do, unless anyone comes up with a source stating the game is *not* Basque in origin. :) --Akerbeltz (talk) 22:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Type of game?

I've added a statement about what kind of game this is, in line with other articles on card games (eg Truc). However, the Baraja page lists it as a vying game, while the infobox says its a trick-taking game. It sems to be both; is that correct? Moonraker12 (talk) 11:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think a trick-taking game is one of those in which each player plays a card and somebody collects them according to the particular rules. If this is right, then mus is definitely not a trick taking game. Each player keeps their four cards for all the game, similar to poker.

Mus is definitely not a trick-taking game; no tricks are collected during the game, as you say above. I do not know into which category the game does fall, but this is something that should be looked into. MikeyMikey667 (talk) 23:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistent spelling: Ordago/or dago/hor dago

It would be good if somebody can determine the most appropriate spelling for the "all in" bet, brings it up for some consensus in this talk page (to prevent potential "edit fights" that waste time and effort) and then cleans up the use of Ordago/or dago/hor dago in the article. It would be clearer for an English speaker reading this page if the use is consistent through the article (and mentioning the alternative spellings is good, but once should be enough). The current mix of terms is simply confusing (I was adding some clarifications on the scoring sequence and I really didn't know what spelling to use, I ended up changing it to or dago which seems a reasonable "intermediate compromise" but I wasn't quite sure)

Ecrz (talk) 23:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

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