Talk:Murder of Cheri Jo Bates

Merger proposal

I propose that Cheri Jo Bates be merged into Zodiac Killer. Cheri Jo Bates seems to be notably only as a possible victim of the Zodiac Killer, and none of the Zodiac Killer's other victims have their own Wikipedia article. Yaush (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support Nothing in the text warranting a standalone article. Just one of Zodiac's victims. Brandmeister^talk 18:20, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Notability is established with the first reference from 1966 which has nothing to do with being a possible Zodiac victim.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:27, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Notability is established by the mere fact of her being a murder victim regarding whom an article was published in a large newspaper? --Yaush (talk) 19:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Multiple articles have been written but the first one denotes that the case is independent of the Zodiac killings. A merge is problematic because it automatically associates that she is a Zodiac victim. The Riverside Police maintain that she is not: "Riverside police have strongly disagreed with any link to the Zodiac Killer, saying the Zodiac’s pattern and habits apparently didn’t match those in the Bates’ killing. There also have been several handwriting misidentifications in the Zodiac case."
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:33, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree with all of the points made above by Berean Hunter. Thank you. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
• Merge or Delete We should not maintain this page simply in order to store the information in a non-Zodiac related way. As a stand-alone murder victim, there's nothing special about this subject. It is only because of the possible connection with the Zodiac killer there is any notability as far as I can see (feel free to correct me by adding more to the article, because it does not currently contain anything that explains any enduring notability - aside from the obvious: the Zodiac connection). I support a merge of any relevant info. If, however, there is consensus this article should not be merged into the Zodiac Killer page, then this article should instead be simply deleted. CapnZapp (talk) 20:35, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I've completed the merge. There's some opposition above, but It's been a year and I think merging is a reasonable step. Protonk (talk) 20:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Correspondence- incorrect information

With reference to the following statement;
"The author of these letters described in detail how Cheri Jo had been murdered, and how he had disabled her car before watching Cheri Jo repeatedly attempt to switch on the ignition until the battery had drained of power."

A statement such as this would be correct. Continual operation of the starter motor, (with the coil disconnected) would drain the battery. The time taken to do this would be dependent on a number of factors.

We now come to this statement;
"Furthermore, the author of the letter stated he had watched Cheri Jo attempt to activate the ignition to her car for "about two minutes," yet the ignition coil wire of her vehicle had been disconnected, thus meaning the ignition coil was unable to deliver the spark necessary to ignite the fuel; as such, the battery of her vehicle did not drain of power.[37]

The conclusion of, "as such, the battery of her vehicle did not drain of power" is erroneous. I very much doubt this sentence is as described in the reference. Whoever wrote this information, whether included in the source or otherwise, is ignorant of the operation of a gasoline engine. With the coil disconnected and the starter cranked regularly, the battery will quickly drain. The time taken will be, as I stated further above, dependent on a number of factors, including the state of the battery. "Two minutes" is quite viable.

This 'conclusion' per above seems to be used to indicate in the article text that this is one of the reasons the letter writer was discounted as a suspect. Hopefully this is a 'conclusion' reached by a Wiki editor and not a Law Enforcement party. Wiki editor's should not be 'reaching conclusions' though, so someone with access to the source material needs to correct this.

The source is given as; "America's Jack The Ripper: The Crimes and Psychology of the Zodiac Killer ISBN 978-1-365-88573-0 p. 226"
Neils51 (talk) 11:45, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I am not a mechanic, and hold no wish to be - not least because I have had to surrender my license for medical reasons. I am going off the sources I have and have found online.

All initial sources (which I own) basically state the perpetrator pulled out the electrical distributor coil and condensor and "disconnected the middle wire of the distributor." He then likely waited for her to run the vehicle battery down before offering assistance. One of the sources I found online made a statement claiming it likely the author of this letter (which he and some investigators ultimately deemed a hoax) composed the content from what had been released to the media, although one or more of the disconnected wires mentioned in the letter was not released to the media(?) so hence the initial given credibility. A further, later, research negated credibility as to the author's claims to have watched and listened to her drain the car battery before approaching her as apparently her car battery was not actually drained of power when discovered. I'll see if I can find it. With all due respect, you could do too. Regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:04, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Okay I've taken a little time to verify this info (or at least part of it) for you. The page in the link you pasted includes this text:

"The Battery Must Have Been About Dead By Then": If one disconnects the coil wire, the ignition cannot deliver the necessary spark to ignite the fuel and the car will not start; it will not drain the battery (my italics). The writer could accurately describe the method of sabotage, yet he was unaware of how it affected the car.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:49, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @Kieronoldham: for this info. The source quoted is erroneous in its conclusion, and the writer was well aware of how the sabotage would affect the car. I'm amazed that such a statement got past a copyeditor, though I suppose some such editors are not there to verify facts. Similarly with the statement that, "her car battery was not actually drained of power when discovered". This is perfectly feasible. A lead acid battery, even if nearly completely drained and unable to turn a starter motor, if left for a period of time may recover sufficiently to start a vehicle. I say 'may' as this will depend on battery condition/age, and the length of time between events although the time between the attempted starting of the vehicle and it being located the next day is given as a significant number of hours, and potentially therefore plenty of time for battery recovery. Irrespective however, I would suggest that perhaps the source is inadequate, reflects original (faulty) research, does not reflect an official police investigation, and should not be used. But why take my word for it, have your favorite competent auto mechanic have a read of the source material and see what he/she thinks. Neils51 (talk) 13:36, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

No worries, Neils51. I will morph this info. out of the article. That original page can be found online. Best regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 03:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@Kieronoldham: Perhaps worth checking out/mentioning the misspelling of 'twitch' as well as I understand this misspelling has also been attributed to the Zodiac Killer's correspondence.Neils51 (talk) 23:32, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

I could seize on that aspect, Neils51. Seriously though, if I did it would belong on the article relating to the perpetrator himself, and not this one. Best regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:31, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Death of Irene Bates, the mother of CJB

I first heard about the death of Mrs. Bates in a podcast thread which Tom Voigt posted in 2019. The thread and derivative threads generated a variety of comments. I have obtained a death certificate for Mrs. Bates and can confirm that the information from Tom Voigt is correct.

Draft: Irene Bates, the mother of Cheri Jo Bates, died of "ingestion of strychnine (Gopher pesticide)" in early July, 1969. The estimated date of ingestion ("injury date") was July 2. Her body was found on July 4 at 3:45 PM. She was 50 years of age. The address of death, and Mrs. Bates residence, was 3210 Main St. This was a Swiss Inn facility. Her death was ruled a suicide on July 8, though this has caused debate.

Original links from Tom Voigt:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/murder-basement-the-curse-of-the-confession-t8752.html

Sample discussion, including comments by Sandy Betts:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/viewtopic.php?p=161106#p161106

VallejoHistory (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

I have added the above, with minor edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VallejoHistory (talk • contribs) 22:21, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Tapatalk and Reddit aren't reputable sources.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I believe that readers deserve to be made aware of the existence of credible objections to any kind of establishment statement.  I did carefully omit the pros and cons to law enforcement failure, and I waited until a week after the talk post to update the article. However, as your one sentence edit will have a more provocative effect than what I wrote, I will let it stand. VallejoHistory (talk) 09:28, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with your sentiments, but podcasts and other User-generated content are not acceptable, VallejoHistory. I didn't write the policies. Bet good money soneone else would have reverted or adjusted the content if I hadn't--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC)