Talk:Mother's Day (Rugrats)/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 13:47, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Not missing the opportunity to review! I should have at least some comments up within a week..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:47, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you! Take as much time as you need and I hope that you enjoy the article. I had a lot of fun creating this one (all of the nostalgia lol) Aoba47 (talk) 14:25, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Here's some starting points.....

• Thank you for the comments so far! Aoba47 (talk) 03:00, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

• The caption for File:RugratsMothersDay.jpg should describe its significance as this is a non-free file other than coverart, and its file page has an incomplete FUR

• I have removed the screenshot as it does not add much to the article. It does not add enough to necessitate a non-free image. Aoba47 (talk) 03:00, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Lead

• "The second episode of the show's fourth season and the sixty-seventh overall, it revolves around the holiday Mother's Day from the perspective of the Rugrats, who attempt to find Chuckie Finster the perfect mother" is quite a mouthful; let's split this into separate sentences

• Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 02:53, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• "Meanwhile, the other babies share their favorite memories about their mothers, Didi Pickles tries to plan the perfect Mother's Day with her mom Minka, and Stu Pickles and Betty DeVille work together to make a machine to help mothers."..... same problem as before

• Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 02:53, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• "Minor references to the mother appear in earlier episodes that contradict the later establishment of Chuckie's backstory"..... interesting..... I'll probably have to rewatch this episode to refresh my memory, but is this referring to things like how in "Chuckie vs. The Potty" he calls potty-training "the worstest thing that's happened to me since my mom put me on the bottle"?

• That would be interesting to figure out. Aoba47 (talk) 02:53, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• For "was nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award", let's include the category

• Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 02:53, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll be back with more later. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• @SNUGGUMS: I apologize for the intrusion, but I was just wondering if there was an update regarding this review? Aoba47 (talk) 14:13, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

• There will be; I should have plot up within 24–48 hours. My bad for not getting back sooner. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you for your response. And no worries, take as long as you need. There is absolutely no rush. Aoba47 (talk) 14:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Plot

• "Angelica Pickles explains Mother's Day to the Rugrats while constructing a macaroni sculpture of her head as a present for her mother"..... let's state that Angelica says it's about giving moms gifts for being moms (even though that's totally not the reality :P)

• I have added this in as a second sentence. I have used your wording if that is okay. I may come back to this in the future and revise it a little more, but I hope it is suitable for now. Mother's Day is a very interesting holiday since the reality can be very different from the fantasy of it lol. Aoba47 (talk) 05:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

• "talk to Chuckie about his motherand share the box" needs a space after "mother"

• Corrected. I am actually surprised that is the only time I did that in this section lol. Aoba47 (talk) 05:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

• Shouldn't there be some mention that Chuckie's mom previously died?

• Oops, I can't believe I missed that. I have added a part about this in the third paragraph. Let me know if this needs to be improved. Aoba47 (talk) 05:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Pretty good section overall. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:16, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you! I will do some more c/e of this section in the future as I would like to try to improve this to the level of an FA sometime in the future. Who would have guessed that writing a summary of an episode from a children's animated television show could be so challenging? lol Aoba47 (talk) 05:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

• @SNUGGUMS: Hello again, just wondering if there were any updates on this? Aoba47 (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Adding more now!

Production

• "In an interview for the cartoon's twenty-fifth anniversary" is a bit much, just say "In 2016", and I think you meant to put this at the end of the paragraph

• Changed and added the appropriate link. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• "Germain attributed Nickelodeon's interference to the representation of Chuckie's mother in the early seasons. He explained"..... maybe you could try "Germain stated this prevented earlier seasons from saying much about Chuckie's mother, adding"

• Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• "In the first-season episode 'Real or Robots?', Stu tells Chuckie that both of his parents will pick him up in the morning. The dialogue and its placement in an early episode was cited as one example in which Chuckie's backstory was not fully completed by Bustle's Mary Grace Garis"..... this might not be the best attribution since I'm unsure about Bustle's overall quality, but maybe you could have something on whether that was the first episode to mention his mother

• Unfortunately, this was the only reliable source that I could find that discussed this. While doing research for this while creating the article, I could not find a reliable source on when the mother was first mentioned outside fan wikis. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• In that case, you could use {{cite episode}} and have something along the lines of "Chuckie's mother had previously been briefly mentioned in the episodes ______ and _______". Examples you could use are "Real or Robots?" and "Chuckie vs. The Potty". Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:02, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you for the suggestion and your patience during the review. I will add the citations to the episodes later today if that is okay with you. Aoba47 (talk) 04:08, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• I apologize for the delay. I have replaced the Bustle source with direct references to the episodes. Aoba47 (talk) 15:00, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• No worries. Feel free to add more episodes if you think of any others before this that mention her. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:19, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you for your comment. To the best of my knowledge, the mother was only referenced in those two episodes (aside from a fan speculated appearance in "Barbecue Story"). Do you think that I should include the mother's appearances in later episodes (i.e. "Finsterella" and "Acorn Nuts & Diapey Butts") and her mention in the All Grown Up! episode "Super Hero Worship"? Aoba47 (talk) 15:38, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• I would only include "Barbecue Story" if this is proven (which seems unlikely), and wouldn't include those other ones either way because they came after this and the section is talking about previous presence (or lack thereof). Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:51, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• That is what I thought, but I just wanted to make sure with you. And unfortunately, the information regarding "Barbecue Story" is pure fan speculation as there is a unidentified woman present in the party that stands near Chaz and fans speculated that she was the mother, so it is not useful for this article. Aoba47 (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• "Production for Rugrats halted following the departures of Germain and his writing team in 1993, with the series put on hiatus in 1994. In 1997, the show was revived as part of Nickelodeon's primetime schedule" isn't supported by either of the given citations, and just the Entertainment Weekly link with Paul Germain is enough on its own, which actually says that new writers came along after Germain left the series in 1993.

• Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• "According to Caseen Gaines and Mathew Klickstein from Decider, the show's writing and production teams frequently discussed how to portray issues tied to 'emotional intensity', such as 'How sad could the episode of Chuckie dealing with his dead mother on Mother's Day be?'."..... also not sure about this attribution due to uncertain site quality

• I removed it as I found it to be unnecessary padding. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• "The story arc involving Chuckie's mother was resolved in the film Rugrats in Paris: The Movie, which introduced the characters Kimi Finster and her mother Kira"..... I wouldn't exactly say that "resolved" things, even if talking about Chaz's marriage to Kira, plus I'm pretty sure you meant to use this link for that (which is somewhat better than the link currently used, but overall questionable)

• I just removed it altogether as I do not believe it is necessary. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Neither do I Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:02, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Some of my edits on this were pretty silly now that I am looking back on it again with a fresh pair of eyes lol. Aoba47 (talk) 16:26, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

This was where my concerns grew, but it thankfully is fixable. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• @SNUGGUMS: Thank you for your comments. I have hopefully resolved them. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• One last thing for this section; if known, I would include when work began and ended for this episode (months would be ideal, but years will suffice if that's the only viable thing that can be found). Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:53, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Of course, I will do some research on this later today if that is okay with you. Aoba47 (talk) 16:59, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Perfectly fine with me. Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:10, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• @SNUGGUMS: I have moved a sentence from the "Broadcast and release" subsection up into the "Production" section about the announcement of the episode's production on December 7, 1996. I could not locate any information about when the production ended however. Aoba47 (talk) 22:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• If not even known whether this finished in 1996 or 1997, then I guess this is all we'll get. That move does help, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:03, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, I believe that is the best that we can get, especially considering that an animated show from the 90s typically does not have that level of production information available. Aoba47 (talk) 02:31, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: Any further developments on this? Aoba47 (talk) 17:34, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll have more within a day or two. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you! Aoba47 (talk) 20:15, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Reception

• I don't see the need for this to encompass both "Broadcast and release" and "Critical response" as those are totally separate things; just give those their own sections

• This is common practice for television episode articles to the best of my understanding. I have seen several FAs and GAs use this format so I would rather stick with that tried and true format. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Are you certain it's for the best in this case? There's also a general "release and reception" section idea without subsections. Not saying you have to use that specifically, but it is a thought. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Changed. Aoba47 (talk) 13:00, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Broadcast and release

• "one of several half-hour specials created for Rugrats"..... I'm surprised this list doesn't include A Rugrats Chanukah given its prominence

• The source just didn't list it; not much else I can do there. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• If you'd like to include it, then TVShowsOnDVD lists it as a special Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how the book The Bestest Mom really pertains to this section; it's not like this was used to promote the episode's debut

• The book is directly connected to the episode and is based on the episode so I am not sure about the issue. It would seem to me to be more of an issue if it was removed since the article would no longer be as comprehensive with the scope of the materials/information related to the episode. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• My concern is that books aren't exactly broadcasts or watchable releases, but it can be kept if it adds to comprehensiveness Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• That is understandable. I will definitely think more about it in the future. I was just thinking about it as a release that is connected with the episode, but I can also understand your point of view as well. It is also kind of in a grey area as it never seemed to attract that much attention either after it was published. I will definitely come back to this in the future while updating the prose. Aoba47 (talk) 13:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• In the end, I just removed it per your comment. Aoba47 (talk) 14:17, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "made available as a part of" reads very awkwardly; try "was included on"

• Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "should also been featured" seems like it's missing the word "have"

• Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Critical response

• An entire box for the poem seems to be a bit much

• Removed. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Schmuckler described Chaz's interactions with Chuckie as 'an age-appropriate version of the loss of his mother'" is true, though you should really go into how he praised the poem she wrote Chuckie

• I am not entirely sure what you mean by this. I have looked at the source again, and this is the only part that I could identify that mentions the poem (In the end, Chuckie found a box of his mother's things and his father told him an age-appropriate version of the loss of his mother, ending with a beautiful poem she had written for him from the hospital.). His comment on the poem being beautiful seems rather vague at best and I am not sure how it would add to this article. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• I actually was talking about that bit, where you could say he "praised her poem as 'beautiful'", suggesting it was well-written Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• That seems like a stretch to me. Saying he thought the poem was well-written because he said it was "beautiful" reads a little too close to original research for my comfort. He could be saying the writing is beautiful, the imagery is beautiful, etc. so it is tough to say for sure. Aoba47 (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "The critical response was largely positive upon the episode's broadcast" doesn't seem to have much support when you only give one review prior to the 21st century, and if this was mainly positive reception, then such a claim should be cited to avoid WP:SYNTH issues.

• Removed, though it could be argued that the award nominations signify a positive critical reception as well. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "'Mother's Day' was nominated for Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Animated Program for the 45th Primetime Emmy Awards, as well for the Humanitas Prize for the Children's Animation Category in 1998.'"..... let's include who won

• Is that really relevant to the article? That seems a little more like padding from my perspective as the importance should be placed on the fact that the episode was nominated for these awards rather than who actually won them.

• Maybe I'm confusing TV article practice with film article practice, but I was basing that how many instances in film articles where something loses a nomination, the winner is mentioned Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• I will add them in the future as I trust your judgement; I will add them sometime today or tomorrow if that is okay with you. I apologize for the delay. Aoba47 (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Just added them; they were easier to find than I thought. Aoba47 (talk) 13:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Susan Hood and Ed Resto aren't mentioned here at all

• Removed. Not sure how that got in there. Aoba47 (talk)

• Mary Harrington isn't exactly a critic, and probably is too closely affiliated with the show anyway when it came from Nickelodeon (especially if she worked on the show itself). Also, is "delicate" the best word choice here?

• True; I just found it to be an interesting quote. I can move it to the "Production" section if you would prefer. I do not necessarily perceive anything wrong with the word choice "delicate" as I have seen it used euphemism when talking about "darker" topics, like death. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Euphemisms are discouraged on Wikipedia per WP:EUPHEMISM. Moving to production seems appropriate. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Moved. Aoba47 (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if "Moviepilot" is a viable source to use when largely fan-run unless perhaps the fans have some sort of known credentials or the staff moderates its content for accuracy

• It may be run by fans, but it is still regulated by "editorial staff", which is noted on the about page that you have linked above. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• If you're confident in their staff's moderation, then this is probably usable Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• I know it is definitely not the best source in the world, but I think it is appropriate in this context. I think it is always important to look at sources in the context of their use. Aoba47 (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• BuzzFeed isn't a good source to use at all, and the link included doesn't really give a review anyway (just a single sentence on sadness); remove this

• I have removed this, but I do not believe that BuzzFeed is a bad source to use for the context of a television show or entertainment-related content. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• You've duplicated the text "The poem written and narrated by Chuckie's mother was praised by Moviepilot's Daniel Pearson, and included in a list of the top eight most heartfelt moments in animated television from Mara Mullikin of the same publication."

• Fixed. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Can't say I'm really comfortable on including Huffington Post, which is certainly better than things like BuzzFeed, but overall far from the best publication that exists

• I really don't understand the issue of using the Huffington Post on something like this. I can understand being concerned if I was using it to cite something political, but I find somewhat silly to raise that concern for this. I have also used the Huffington Post on a previous FA for a television episode without any issues. Aoba47 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• That was mainly me trying to avoid publications often known to be iffy on certain subjects (particularly when making contentious claims). Thankfully this instance doesn't involve contentious claims or a political subject. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• That makes perfect sense to me; I never gave it much consideration as I do not think that this article covers any contentious or political to worry too much about. Aoba47 (talk) 13:07, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

References

• Try to find something better than Metro, BuzzFeed, or Huffington Post

• I have eliminated Buzzfeed. I do not believe Huffington Post should be an issue and I still do not understand the issue regarding that. I have removed the Metro source. Aoba47 (talk) 03:45, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Is "Thought Catalog" viable? Like with Moviepilot, if the author has known credentials, then that could suggest it's fine to use.

• Removed. Aoba47 (talk) 03:48, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Overall

• Prose: Needs work in some places

• I have put this on the list of requests for the WikiProject Guild of Copy Editor so that should help with this in the future. Aoba47 (talk) 03:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Referencing: Three subpar references and two questionable sources
• Coverage: Some pieces could use more elaboration, particularly on how critics responded to the episode around its 1997 premiere, or at least prior to the 2000s

• There simply is not that much out there from the late 90s regarding its reception. Remember that this was released really prior the internet become as widespread and this a children's television show. Aoba47 (talk) 03:49, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• I am well aware of its time frame and subject matter. While I might be mistaken, seeing the articles on the Rugrats Passover and Chanukah specials with offline refs made me think there could also be such material available for this episode, perhaps within a decade of its release. To be fair, this episode probably wasn't as popular as those two in either case, which were considered groundbreaking for their Jewish themes. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:25, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, I could not find additional resources online. It could be possible to find further resources in libraries and other places like that. I agree with you, and I think that the Passover and Chanukah specials received more attention for their subject matter. I know that this episode received attention for covering a death of a parent, but I think the response was mostly from the fans or more informal communities, while the show's treatment of Jewish themes crossed over more easily into academic areas and received more coverage from more reliable sources if that makes any sense. Also, the Passover and Chanukah specials could have eclipsed this one as they were all released around the same time. I will definitely do more research though when returning to this article in the future. Aoba47 (talk) 12:57, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Neutrality: Not sure about the use of "delicate", but otherwise looks good
• Stability: Completely fine
• Media: File:Kim Catrall Meet Monica Velour 1.jpg has a valid license, though I'd trim its caption to something like "Kim Catrall has a guest role Melina Finster in the episode" or "Kim Catrall voices Chuckie's mother Melinda"
• Verdict: Placing the article on hold. I will give you seven days to address the remaining issues. Best of luck! Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:00, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• @SNUGGUMS: I have addressed your comments. Aoba47 (talk) 03:49, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• @SNUGGUMS: I believe that I have addressed your comments. Thank you again for the review. I believe that a copyedit from the WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors will help to fix some of the sticky prose in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 13:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• I've made some minor adjustments, and this looks good to go. Passing for GA! If you do later on find good offline sources talking about the episode, then by all means feel free to include them. Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:49, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you for your review; you have helped me a lot. I will look for more offline sources in the future, and add more if I find any. Thank you again and have a wonderful rest of your day. Aoba47 (talk) 17:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)