Wikipedia

Talk:Mormonism and Nicene Christianity/Archive 23

< Talk:Mormonism and Nicene Christianity
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Twassman in topic Requested move 16 January 2021
Archive 20 Archive 21 Archive 22 Archive 23

External links modified

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Mormonism and Christianity. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:19, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Mormonism and Christianity. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:17, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Is it really that important that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be considered Christians?

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Missing from this article is the viewpoint that the question of whether Mormonism is christian or not is irrelevant and/or based on unfair/offensive notions of Non-Christians. There are some religious freedom advocates, especially those focused on defending the religious freedom on non-Christian in Christian deponent societies like the U.S., who would argue that it's not necessary for Mormons to be Christians and that being a separate religion from Christianity is inherently bad, that many U.S. Mormon's focus too much on this issue because of the perception being a non-Christian religion make you inferior and that being considered Christian, even if a controversial Christian denomination/sect, is better then being non-Christian. There is also the argument I have heard that this is being used as a marketing tool buy the LDS church who feels they can't sell mormonism to the masses unless it's under the Christianity umbrella. I don't know wether all these alternate views can be properly sourced but I find it hard to imagine that at least a paragraph can't be written with proper sourcing on the view that the question is not relevant/important. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 18:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (often referred to as Mormons) are Christian by definition. They follow Jesus Christ and His teachings. It is important to note that they are Christian as it is the number one essential part of the religion. He is referred to as the cornerstone of their religion. Not calling them Christian would be an insult to Christianity itself. Webcoolz (talk) 08:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Jesus Christ is the center of faith to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Removal of Text Claiming Mormonism is a Christian Denomination

Latest comment: 3 years ago8 comments7 people in discussion

Referencing my edit today, the text clearly said that Mormonism was the largest non-Trinitarian denomination in Christianity. Citation was given to Bruce D. Porter in the article Is Mormonism Christian? The concluding paragraph of that article states in its entirety,

The intent of this essay is not to say that individual Mormons will be barred from sitting with Abraham and the saints at the marriage supper of the Lamb. We are saved by a merciful Trinity, not by our theology. But the distinguished scholar of Mormonism Jan Shipps was only partly right when she wrote that Mormonism is a departure from the existing Christian tradition as much as early Christianity was a departure from Judaism. For if Christianity is a shoot grafted onto the olive tree of Judaism, Mormonism as it stands cannot be successfully grafted onto either.

Obviously, the article itself did reference Bruce D. Porter's essay in its entirety and Porter may make the assertion, as Mormons sometimes do, that Mormonism is Christian, but that was not the intention of the article, nor that of the notable online magazine First Things. -- Srwalden (talk) 06:52, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

The problem with your assessment imo is that the "First Things" article is two contrasting essays. The concluding paragraph is not the concluding paragraph of the article, per se, but the concluding paragraph of the evangelical essay. It is no more concluding to the overall question than the Porter's concluding paragraph to his essay. Both the citation (and the citation needed tag to which it was a reaction) are fairly recent additions to the article. I would agree with you that the citation does not do anything to support the statement. However, this debate was resolved a long time ago, with the established consensus for Wikipedia succintly summed up here. That consensus was based in large part on how non-sectarian academics categorize the LDS movement as part of Christianity (see for example this, which would support grouping within Christianity, just not the "largest nontrinitarian" claim). As such, I am restoring the statement without the citation and with the "cn" tag. --FyzixFighter (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
It's one thing to say secularists consider Mormons as Christians and quite another to say traditional Christian denominations do. You'll need sources for that. Jonathunder (talk) 04:25, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
That seems to me a bit of a non sequitur - I would certainly agree with that statement. I am not, nor is the sentence in question, making a claim about what traditional Christian denominations say. This a simple statement in wikipedia's voice, therefore, since wikipedia is a secular encyclopedia, I believe the statement should be understood in a secularist context. Secular sources put the LDS movement (and its subset Mormonism) within Christianity. Hence, the pattern followed across wikipedia. --FyzixFighter (talk) 13:17, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Christianity is a monotheistic religion. Mormonism is a cult that uses parts of the Bible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:3260:D80:843C:BDDE:2115:F3B7 (talk) 00:20, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Not parts of the Bible, but the entire Bible. --2806:1000:8001:3B37:BD8A:9269:719C:9468 (talk) 02:14, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
The entire *Protestant* Bible, that is. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 15:09, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (often called Mormons) are Christian according to definition. Christians are disciples of Jesus Christ, believing him to be the Son of God and Savior of the world. If that isn't a qualifier for Christianity, then what is? Webcoolz (talk) 08:01, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 28 July 2020

Latest comment: 3 years ago8 comments7 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 16:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


Mormonism and Christianity → Mormonism's idiosyncrasies within Christianity – The current name is very POV. See discussion at Talk:Mormonism_and_Christianity#February_2020_NPOV_concerns There is no objection to changing the name and no one thinks the current name is NPOV. The name proposed here is just the last one proposed in that section of this talk page. 70.168.100.94 (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Oppose: The word idiosyncracies is not NPOV. Synonyms include peculiarity, oddity, foible, eccentricity, quirk, etc. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't see a POV problem with the current name, and this kind of construction is common I think. See Mormonism and Islam for example. We could have articles on "Pumpkins and Fruit" and "Carrots and Fruit" discussing the relationship of pumpkins and carrots to fruit, and it wouldn't be a POV problem that pumpkins are technically a fruit while carrots aren't. ~Awilley (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I don't think this nomination really explains this well. But I think the issue here is that Mormons are generally considered Christians (and certainly consider themselves Christians), but there are what I think are somewhat outdated but still existing movements arguing it is not. The current article title is potentially using the opinion they are separate. It's like if we had Jews and Sephardim (although I don't know if there are people arguing Sephardic Jews are not actual jews).--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I must agree that 'The word idiosyncracies is not NPOV', so I propose other ideas discussed above, e.g.,"Mormonism and other Christianity" or "Mormonism and Nicene Christianity".
The following are fallacious and absurd analogies: 'See Mormonism and Islam for example. We could have articles on "Pumpkins and Fruit" and "Carrots and Fruit" discussing the relationship of pumpkins and carrots to fruit'. No one would contend that Mormonism is a type of Islam or that pumpkins and carrots are types of fruit; however, Mormonism is a type of Christianity, and the current title implies that it is not.
A change *is* required. The present name is so POV as to be a disgrace to Wikipedia. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 16:19, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Vincent J. Lipsio, you missed the point of my analogy. Pumpkins, like tomatoes and avocados, are fruit. https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/food-recipes/a21246075/is-pumpkin-a-fruit/ Pumpkin is to Fruit what Mormonism is to Christianity. ~Awilley (talk) 23:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Awilley, Yes, as you had already typed, pumpkins are technically a fruit. But you also pointed to, as an analogy, Mormonism and Islam . But Mormonism *is* a type of Christianity, albeit neither mainstream Christianity nor anything that my personal belief system would consider Christianity, but being objective and being encyclopedic, it is.
  • I Oppose this particular name, but Strongly Support a name change. Think about a horrifying article titled "Black people and Homo Sapiens". Why would this be horrifying? Because there is an implication that Black people are not Homo Sapiens. 23 archives worth of debate over this very name subject is sufficient evidence to show that the title of this article really irks Mormons. I suggest "Mormonism and Mainstream Christianity" or "Mormonism and Nicene Christianity". As far as the fruit analogy, I casually asked my wife, "If I wrote an article titled 'Pumpkins and Fruit'... " upon which she didn't even let me finish my sentence before she said, "Pumpkins are fruit! It should be Pumpkins and other fruit". There are people that reeeeeeeally care about fruit classifications, like, a lot. I live with one. I called a tomato a vegetable once and had to sleep on the couch. I agree that this is a disgrace to Wikipedia. Please find me a single article on Wikipedia where a "Pumpkins and Fruit" type article exists. They don't. Is there a "Jehovah's Witness and Christianity"?, "Catholics and Christianity"? " Nope. Not at all. Epachamo (talk) 03:03, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 16 January 2021

Latest comment: 3 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) — Twassman [Talk·Contribs] 06:14, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Mormonism and Christianity → Mormonism and Nicene Christianity – The term Christianity is too broad. Nicene Christianity is a better representation of the comparison in this article. See discussion at Talk:Mormonism_and_Christianity#February_2020_NPOV_concerns. Jared.h.wood (talk) 01:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Strong Support: It better represents the five criteria found in WP:CRITERIA, particularly precision. "Nicene Christianity" is how it is distinguished in other articles (see Nicene Christianity). The title right now is POV, implying that Mormon's are not Christians. There are few articles that have as many archives as this article, with section after section arguing over the name and perceived slight towards Mormons. In reviewing those archives, I'd argue that there is consensus on the fact that a name change needs to be made, but there has never been consensus on what it needs to be changed to. Should it be Evangelical Christianity? Creedal Christianity? Mainstream Christianity? Mainline Christianity? Orthodox Chrisitianity? What do scholars use to make the distinction? I've found that scholars use all of the terms, and have not found one to be in more use than the other.[1][2][3] Any would be better than what is here currently and Nicene Christianity works perfectly fine. I wholeheartedly support this long overdue name change. Epachamo (talk) 15:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Christianity is very diverse in terms of the core theology (e.g. relationship between the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost). "Nicene" is a better representation of the mainstream Christian interpretation. Could even be "Mormonism vs Mainstream Christianity" for better clarity of intent. KuroNekoNiyah (talk) 02:04, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Support. Many Nicene Christians call themselves simply "Christian", consider not only Latter-day Saints, but other non-Nicene Christians, not really to be Christians at all, and may even argue that "Nicene Christianity" is redundant because (in their view) all real Christians are Nicene by definition. Latter-day Saints, for all their/our exclusivity, have a broadly inclusive view of who is or is not a Christian — basically, we accept just about anyone who professes a belief in and devotion to Jesus Christ as being a Christian, while still acknowledging significant differences between ourselves and "friends of other faiths" — but large segments of Christendom do not return the favour because they consider the theological differences (specifically involving the LDS concept of the Godhead) to constitute an unbridgeable chasm. "Mormonism and Christianity" is POV because it all but explicitly endorses the view that only Nicene Christianity is properly entitled to be labelled as Christian. "Mormonism and mainstream Christianity" is a little better, but it still implies to many that the "mainstream" (majority, Nicene) view is right and that non-"mainstream" positions are wrong. "Mormonism and orthodox Christianity" is not only POV for the same reason, but it is also ambiguous, because "orthodox" (non-capitalized) is used by many Protestants to refer to their own views as being "the correct" version of Christianity, as distinct from capitalized (Eastern) "Orthodox" (whose beliefs, FWIW, self-styled "orthodox" Protestants generally do not accept as orthodox). That pretty much leaves "Mormonism and Nicene Christianity" as the most neutral and accurate description. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 21:47, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Harris, M. L., Bringhurst, N. G., & Mauss, A. L. (2020). The LDS gospel topics series: A scholarly engagement. Salt Lake City: Signature Books.
  2. ^ Givens, T. (2015). Wrestling the angel: The foundations of Mormon thought: Cosmos, God, humanity. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
  3. ^ Jackson, Kent P. “Are Mormons Christians? Presbyterians, Mormons, and the Question of Religious Definitions.” Nova Religio: The Journal of Alternative and Emergent Religions, vol. 4, no. 1, 2000, pp. 52–65. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/nr.2000.4.1.52. Accessed 16 Jan. 2021.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mormonism_and_Nicene_Christianity/Archive_23&oldid=1158786937"