Talk:Mogadishu/Archive 1

The post-colonial and pre-collapse period

This account of Mogadishu has nothing to say about 45 years of its history, from 1945 to 1990. A gaping hole, to say the least! Rick Davies

Mogadishu picture

The picture named "Mogadishu_rebuilding..jpg" is not a picutre of Mogadishu as mogadishu does not have a mountains and hills, its situated in a flat land. and i am 100% sure this picture does not even belong to any Somali city or town. maxman (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Despite heated comments proclaiming "Tis Mog" the picture has been removed and not re-instated--SilasW (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Warlord

(Mohamed Farad Aidid?)

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Computer Generated English translation follows this text - La traduction en anglais générée par ordinateur suit ce texte

Quelle hypocrisie de la part des USA, des Nations Unis, de l'Italie et des Russes, un jour le père Aidid est l'énnemi public numèro 1 comme Ben Laden d'ailleurs, pour ensuite vouloir capturer Mohammed Aidid avec une prime de 25.000$ sur sa tête.

Une quête ayant couté la vie à 18 braves soldats ayant combattu pour une juste cause de par l'opération restaure hope, innocents en ayant été victime d'un gouvernement Américain de pervers, de menteurs, de singes et de guenons qui cache la vérité, celle qui nuit a leurs intérêts communs, pour un peuple Somalien qui fût réduit a la famine par la volonté d'un warlord Mohammed Aidid, un warlord faisant régner sa petite terreure sur le peuple somalien d'en bas, qui ayant fait toutes ses études en occident "Italie l'ancien colonisateur" afin de renverser un marxiste leniniste de Barre ayant manipulé et instrumentalisé l'Islam pour un vil profit matérielle terrestre éphémère, et pour son bien être individuel, pour qu'ensuite les US fasse venir le fils Aidid a l'age de 16 ans au pays des kouffars "aux Etats Unis pour lui montrer ce qu'est la face visible de la grandeur d'un pays, mais ayant oublié de lui montrer la face caché de la grandeur des Etats Unis, celle que l'occident ne veut pas montrer, mais attention on ne fait pas venir au pays de l'oncle sam n'importe quel filston ! non ! plutot le fils Aidid et certainement pas un fils de Somalie qui fût victime de la famine du père Aidid, et dont le père, un jour de Mars 1992 était l'énnemi public numéro 1 des US et de l'UN en Somalie après l'avoir manipulé contre un tyran marxiste leniniste Barre" pour qu'ensuite on place le fils Aidid sur le trône de Somalie, et dont le père fût coupable de crime de guerre et de génocide contre l'humanité toute entière par le biais de "la FAMINE DU PEUPLE SOMALIEN" pour qu'ensuite dans leur plans machiavélique en tout genre on vienne placer sur le trone de la somalie le Fils Aidid, au sevice des Etats Unis par l'intermédiaire de son service qu'il effectua au service des Marines, d'ailleurs ne le dit-il pas lui même : "Once a marine, always a marine" un jour un marine toujours un marine, mais le plus triste dans l'histoire c'est tel un fils trahissant le père, pour des Etats Unis qui après avoir combattu et recherché le père Aidid a Mogadishu en 1992 et tout en ayant plaçé sur sa tête, une prime de 25000$ après l'avoir manipulé contre les tyrans du marxiste leninisme de l'Union Soviétique.

Vraiment, l'amérique et les Nations Unis, votre fin approche a grands pas, non pas, pour votre impérialisme commercial sur toute la surface de la terre, mais pour vos manipulations et instrumentalisations en tout genre de l'unique religion agréée par l'éternel : L'Islam (La paix) car avec l'Islam on doit faire la paix et non pas la guerre, car lorque l'on brandit le glaive c'est pour une bonne cause defendre le faible contre le tyran, contre le puissant, nourrir un orphelin, érradiquer la famine, mais quand on manipule l'Islam pour un vil profit on brandit le glaive a son propre détriment.

Ceci, l'heure arrive, celle des réglements de compte devant l'éternel, surtout, pour vos manipulations en tout genre sur toute la surface de la terre, car si vous saviez de sources certaines que la fin de VOTRE NOUVEL ORDRE MONDIAL arrive a grands pas ! pour celui d'un nouvel ordre mondial DIVIN, qui lui sera sans associé(es) dans la destiné de toute l'humanité !

Quand a celles et a ceux qui ne sont pas dans l'islam "dans la Paix" rentrez-y car il est temps ! pour votre salut ! car la fin approche ! site internet : http://www.islam-2012-newworldorder.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.249.19.157 (talk) 00:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Perché non scrive in inglese?--SilasW (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

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Automated English Translation from Babelfish follows - La traduction en anglais automatisée de Babelfish suit

Which hypocrisy on behalf of the USA, of the Nations Linked, Italy and the Russians, one day the Aidid father is the public enemy besides number 1 like Bin Laden, for then wanting to capture Mohammed Aidid with a premium of 25.000$ on its head.

A search having cost the life 18 brave men soldiers having fought for a right cause from the operation restores hope, innocent while having been victim of an US government of pervert, liars, monkeys and guenons which hiding place the truth, that which harms has their shared interests, for Somali people which was tiny room to the famine by the will of a warlord Mohammed Aidid, a warlord making reign its small terreure on the Somali people of in bottom, which having made all to its studies in occident “Italy the former colonizer” in order to reverse a Leninist Marxist of Bar having handled and having instrumentalisé Islam for a cheap profit material terrestrial transitory, and for its good individual being, so that then the US ones make come the Aidid son to old 16 years to the country from the kouffars “to the United States to show him what is the visible face of the size of a country, but having forgotten to show him the face hidden of the size of the United States, that which the occident does not want to show, but attention one does not make come to the country from the Uncle Sam any filston! not! rather son Aidid and certainly not son of Somalia which was victim of the famine of the Aidid father, and of which father, one day of Mars 1992 was public enemy number 1 of US and of ONE in Somalia after it to have handled against tyrant Marxist Leninist Bars” so that then one places son Aidid on throne of Somalia, and whose father was guilty of genocide and war crime against very whole humanity by the means of “the FAMINE OF the SOMALI PEOPLE” so that then in their plans machiavelic in any kind one comes to place on the throne of Somalia the Aidid Son, to the maltreatment of the United States via its service which it carried out with the service of the Navy, moreover does not even say it he him: “Ounce has marine, always always has marine” one day a navy a navy, but saddest in the history it is a such son betraying the father, for of the United States which after having fought and having sought the Aidid father has Mogadishu in 1992 and while having place on its head, a premium of 25000$ after having handled it against the tyrants of the Marxist Leninism of the Soviet Union.

Really, America and the Nations Linked, your fine approaches has great steps, not, for your commercial imperialism on all the surface of the ground, but for your handling and instrumentalisations in any kind of the single religion approved by the eternal: Islam (peace) because with Islam one must make peace and not the war, because lorque one holds up the sword is for a good cause to defend the weak one against the tyrant, against the powerful one, to nourish an orphan, érradiquer the famine, but when one handles Islam for a cheap profit one holds up the sword has his own detriment.

This, the hour arrives, that of the settlings of score in front of the eternal, especially, for your handling in any kind on all the surface of the ground, because if you knew unquestionable sources that the end of YOUR NEW WORLD KIND arrives great steps have! for that of a new DIVINE world order, which without associated (be) in will be intended to him with all humanity!

When has those and has those which are not in Islam “in Peace” return there because it is time! for your safety! because the fine one approaches! Internet site: http://www.islam-2012-newworldorder.com

Please note, I did not write the original nor the translation; I simply ran it through Babelfish. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) (talk) 20:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

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Madagascar

I read somewhere that Madagascar got its name from misunderstood reports of Mogadishu by Marco Polo. True?

The Portuguese=

There is no evidence that the Portuguese ever owned / ruled Mogadishu. See "The Portuguese visited the city, but never succeeded in taking it." at [1] Rick Davies

Italian name

I removed

(Italian: Mogadiscio) -?

can't see why this is in any way significant for the English language Wikipedia. --Robert Merkel 13:26, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It was an Italian colony, and Mogadiscio was what the city was called during that period. Rick Davies

Status of Somalia

Because of the current status of Somalia it is probably improper to characterize Mogadishu as a national capital. Taking the term Somalia to be a region, one could say "Mogadishu is the largest city in Somalia," but IMO there is no reason to say "Mogadishu is the capital of Somalia" when the provisional government is nothing more than provisional. --Alexwcovington (talk) 17:18, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And when Somaliland, in the NW has been functionally independent since the early 90's with their own capital, Hargeysa. Rick Davies

It might make sense then to simply explain that while Mogadishu is the official capital of the provisional government, Somaliland has been functionally independent since the early 1990s. L Hamm 17:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It should probably say Mogadishu is the de jure capital, recognized by the United Nations or something like that. 4.142.132.85 23:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)Eric

Choice of Photo

Am I the only one who thinks it's unfortunate that the one photo chosen for this article is of the Black Hawk helicopter? I suspect that while this describes what Mogadishu brings to mind for an American, other images would be more relevant to the residents of the city. A public square or market, perhaps?

--User:Vorpalbla 1/23/05

There are many other photos to choose from at http://www.swan.ac.uk/cds/rd/mogimage.htm Rick Davies

Backs hacks incident leading to World trade center

Well, I think this is higly speculative and has no place in that king of article. I will remove that paragraphe and I think it should not come back unless more background is brought there. --Martin.komunide.com 05:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Landshut?

The subheader "Anarchy and the Americans", due to its placing between the "historic" and "today" section, makes it very hard to add an event that IMHO belongs here. I don't know how strong the connection is in England or the US, but in Germany the first association with the word "Mogadishu" is the liberation of the Landshut hostages, mentioned in various other Wikipedia articles.

Suggestion:

"1977 the German anti-terror unit GSG 9 liberated the hijacked Lufthansa airliner Landshut on the city airport. (See Red Army Faction or German Autumn for details.)"

not Swahili

Removed this claim:

, another version claims that it is a Somali version of the Swahili "mwyu ma" (last northern city)

That doesn't look like any kind of Swahili to me, and it's not the Swahili for 'last' or 'north' or 'city' (mji).

Arms Supply

Who supplies arms to the Islamic Court Union? I read in the Islamic Court Union article that Ethiopia does. However, in this article, Eritrea is the supplier. Who's the real supplier? Wai Hong 05:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• All news reports I've seen say that Ethiopia supplies arms to the ICU, and Eritrea supplies arms to the rival warlords.--Pharos 05:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Five Black Hawks Down?

How about a link to a source, referencing the additional three downed helicopters? I've only ever heard about the two that went down in the city. Thanks!

Map of Mogadishu

Is anyone else interested in putting together an up-to-date map of Mogadishu? I've been frustrated by the lack of information forthcoming from the media about the exact locations of the warlords, the Islamic courts, the provisional government etc. I'm also thinking of creating a larger map of Somalia, showing current and recent positions of the various warlords, the Islamic courts and Ethiopian incursions. Anyone? Polocrunch 18:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The Treaty of 1891.

Mogadishu became Italian after the treaty of March 24, 1891. The Italian emissary who signed the treaty was Vincenzo Filonardi.

Photos

Many of the photos currently on the page are of poor quality and/or have dubious copyright licenses. It would be nice to get some high-quality free images posted here. -- Beland 19:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

And to have some from more recently than the early 1990s! I don't underestimate the difficulty of that, but 1992 is far distant now. 86.132.139.119 (talk) 11:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation Query

The article gives the English pronunciation as moʊgəˈdɪʃuː. That seems to start as the three men went to do to the meadow (indeed how that word ends) but in my Somali donkey's years I heard from Anglophones nothing but "Mog" to rhyme with "Fog".
What source is there for "moʊgəˈdɪʃuː"?

Oops! That got by unsigned, but CambridgeBayWeather has changed the pronunciation.--SilasW (talk) 12:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Whose Hometown?

No matter who were the inhabitants of the surrounding countryside surely Mogadishu is the hometown of the distinctive (if not now "extincted") Rer Xamar.--SilasW (talk) 16:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

A fake photo

I haven't removed pending clarification, but the photo with 'rebuilding Mogadishu' is not of Mogadishu but a town in Malaysia. I am 100% sure of this. --Samantar Abdirisaq (talk) 00:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Zap it. It comes from a set of photos said to be of Mog but this and another from the same source (who writes "da" for "the") are not Mog a) no hill like that b) no such architectural style and c) no such rebuilding. Look at the Flickr set the real Mogadishu scenes come from and note the general rooflessness.--SilasW (talk) 14:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I zapped that pic 8 Dec 2008 because it is not of Mog. Short of trawling for all pictures labelled as Mog and asking the reverter to compare them and spot those wrongly labelled, I suggest you look at the wreckage of MGQ in Google Earth, I guess it's military/political watchfulness that provides such detailed cover of the place.--SilasW (talk) 11:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that explanation above is not good enough. For one thing, the Flickr pics you allude to don't capture every inch of Mogadishu let alone every architectural style or hill. They only capture isolated parts of the city, one frame at a time. Further, just because the World66 source the picture in question was licensed from describes its contents with ungrammatical words such as "da" in lieu of "the" does not in any way, shape or form make the picture a fake or undermine its legitimacy, especially considering the fact that English is not your average Somali person's first language (which the pic's uploader in all likelihood is since he spelled Mogadishu the Somali way: mugdishu). Like I already told the 77.250.207.176 anonymous IP that tried to remove the pic before you, until you produce actual evidence demonstrating that that exact scene depicted in the picture is not of Mogadishu but of some place else, the pic stays per Wikipedia's image use policy. Middayexpress (talk) 07:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems there is a determined effort to keep this picture, which is not of Mogadishu. Its source, admittedly as does much in WP, fails to reach WP's standards. I doubt if the poster was a Somali, "Mogadishu" is not spelt in the Somali way which has a "q" (the qaf of Arabic) not a "g". The Somali language has neither "th" sound of English but my observation in Somalia and in the UK is that,

unlike stereotyped Germans and other Europeans, Somalis due to their exposure to Arabic (the only education for most children 50 years ago was sitting under a shade tree repeating parrot fashion the sounds the teacher read from the Quranic extracts written on a board) have no trouble with "th". That contrasts strong with the difficulty they have in distinguishing between "b" and "p" and between "f" and "v", the second of both those pairs does not occur in Arabic. Challenged postings in WP need proving. Mog is not developing in the sense of being rebuilt. It is an utter wreck. The only hills there are the built over old naturally stabilised sand dunes say a hallf to ome km from the coast.--SilasW (talk) 12:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The term Mogadishu is an entirely British invention. The Somalis themselves know the city simply as Xamar or Muqdishu, with no "g" to speak of. Mugdishu is simply a Somali person unsuccessfully trying to anglicize the Muqdishu they know by replacing the familiar Somali "q" pronunciation with the British "g" pronunciation. No one else would spell it that way; certainly not an Anglophone. Further, I find your schadenfreude most disturbing. You've obviously got something against Somalis and appear to delight in their perceived misfortune, though I'm not sure why (e.g. "the only education for most children 50 years ago was sitting under a shade tree repeating parrot fashion the sounds the teacher read from the Quranic extracts written on a board"). At any rate, you may want to check that attitude at the door before editing any more Somali-related pages. It's not particularly helpful. Middayexpress (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Categorization

User:Middayexpress may compare the following (from the History of Mogadishu article) before reverting again:

The northernmost of the East African city-states, Mogadishu prospered with trade with the interior, which spread Islam throughout Somalia. Beginning about 1000, trade increased among the Swahili cities of coastal East Africa. This trade drove the Mogadishu economy by the early 1100s.

RandomCritic (talk) 14:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

That's an unsourced passage from a Wikipedia article; hardly authoritative. You could've written it for all we know. It's also laughably wrong. Mogadishu just traded with the Swahili city-states to the south, it wasn't a part of them. Mogadishu was a part of the so-called Bilad al Barbar that denoted Northeast Africa, not the Ard al Zanj that denoted the Swahili city-states of Southeast Africa. Middayexpress (talk) 20:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Sources

You could easily have checked to see if I'd written that passage. Of course, I didn't.

Anyway:

"The major Swahili city-states were Mogadishu, Barawa, Mombasa (Kenya), Gedi, Pate, Malindi, Zanzibar, Kilwa, and Sofala in the far south."[2]

"Swahili Society, c. 11th-15th Centuries C.E. This was another Bantu society like the others we have been reviewing, but it was one of city-states situated along the East African coast from Mogadishu to Kilwa and Sofala." [3]

"In its prime Lamu was one of a string of ports that stretched along the East African coast from Mogadishu to present-day Mozambique .... The Swahili city-states flourished between the 12th and 18th centuries, when ships from Arabia, India, and even China called at their ports to carry away the goods that made the Swahili rich" [4]

"There were 8 major Swahili city-states (Mogadishu, Barawaa, Mombasa, Gedi, Pate, Malindi, Zanzibar, Kilwa, and Sofala) all were politically independent of one another." [5]

"Some of the wealthy and influential Swahili city-states included Mogadishu in the north, Kilwa, and Zanzibar in the South." [6]

"Historic Swahili city states include Kilwa Kisiwani, Lamu, Mogadishu, Mombasa, Sofala, Zanzibar." [7]

"Swahili civilization represented a blending of African culture with foreign, especially Arab, elements, and was urban, mercantile, maritime, literate, and Islamic in nature. It stretched down the Indian Ocean coast of Africa from Mogadishu in modern Somalia to south of the Zambezi River in modern Mozambique, with offshore centres including Zanzibar, Pemba, and the Comoros." [8]

"Eventually the Swahili settlements stretched along the East African coast from Mogadishu in Somalia to Madagascar and Mozambique." [9]

If characterizing Mogadishu as a "Swahili city-state" is an error, it appears to be an unusually common one. I'll take it that I've sourced the characterization for Mogadishu and Barawa, and I'll reinstate the category until you can get back with your sources to the contrary. RandomCritic (talk) 02:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, characterizing Mogadishu as a "Swahili city-state" is most certainly an error, and it's only unusually common in personal websites like the ones you've quoted from above. In fact, all of the sources you've cited are unreliable, self-published sources, save one line in the MSN encarata encyclopedia which is contradicted by the sources I've already included. It seems you're trying very hard to label Mogadishu with the absurd "Swahili" tag when it isn't and never has been Swahili. So again, per page 138 of the historian Timothy Insoll's The Archaeology of Islam in Sub-Saharan Africa‎, an actual scholar in the field:

"Excepting the offshore islands, the coastal division is in broad agreement with the geographical description of the East African coast provided by al-Idrisi (mid-twelfth century), with 'Barbar' north of Mogadishu", and already decribed, 'Zanj', south of Mogadishu to Pemba island, and 'Sofala', the source of gold, south of this."

Note how it didn't take me an entire day to find that quality source either. That's cause Mogadishu never was a part of the Swahili Ard al Zanj/Bilad al Zanj. From Sanjay Subrahmanyam's The Career and Legend of Vasco Da Gama, pp.120-121:

"Kilwa, we may note, was visited by Ibn Battuta in the 1330s, and described by that time as having surpassed Mombasa as the dominant center of the Bilad al Zanj (as the Swahili coast was known to the Arabs). However, by the late fifteenth century, sharp trading and political rivalries of some importance existed between these centres; if, in the Somali coast (Arabic, Bilad al Barbar) to the north, Muqdisho (Mogadishu) preserved its pre-eminence, the dominant position of Kilwa further south was under challenge by both Mombasa, and the ruling family at Zanzibar."

Middayexpress (talk) 03:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Your sources don't actually deny that Mogadishu is a Swahili city-state. I've provided sources that say it is. You've provided nothing. In fact, the sources you cite disprove your point: the first places Mogadishu at the northern boundary of 'Zanj', the second says nothing to the purpose at all. When you're willing to stop waving your hands and cite anything relevant, we can discuss the relative reliability of sources. Until then, my sources stand against your own authority.

P.S. You apparently don't understand what "self-published" means. RandomCritic (talk) 04:21, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

And more sources

"Among the Swahili city-states, a new balance of power took hold. Manda and Shanga declined greatly in importance after 1100, both eventually being abandoned. Two other city-states, Muqdisho on the Somali coast and Kilwa, located on an island along the southern Tanzania coast, gradually became the new leading city-states." [10]

So apparently for this author there's no contradiction between being a "Swahili city-state" and being (geographically) on the Somali coast. Nor would one expect there to be.

"The Swahili states were located along the coast. They were all trading cities. Kilwa, Mogadishu, Sofala and Mombasa were some of the leading Swahili cities." [11]

"The [Swahili] language was the basis for a culture, and both were built around small towns along the ocean, running about 2,000 miles from Mogadiscio in the north (in today's Somalia) to Sofala in the south (in today's Mozambique). Most of the towns were autonomous. We can call them city-states..." [12]

Obviously, a user can impugn the authority of these (obviously not "self-published") sources as well, but the point remains: whether one user agrees or disagrees with the category is irrelevant: the point is that the category exists, and happens to be a very useful one for uniting various articles relevant to East African history. I gather that the user objects to the term "Swahili", but that's not the point (it just happens to be the most common term used to describe this group of city-states, as I have abundantly shown). What's important is that there be a category which preserves the cultural links shared by these city-states, a link which lasted right down to the scramble for Africa in the 1880s. It's not good history to pretend that modern boundaries have always existed as they do today. RandomCritic (talk) 04:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

No, the category exists to unite relevant portions of Swahili history, since 'East African history' is represented by two very different experiences: that of the Bilad al Zanj of the Swahilis, Bantus & Nilotes and that of the Bilad al Barbar of the Horn Africans. Your first source above is from one Christopher Ehret, a well known Africanist, and not an historical source. By contrast, the Timothy Insoll source that I provided above references al-Idrisi, an actual historical Arab source from the twelfth century who does not place Mogadishu in the Swahili Bilad al Zanj but in the Somali/Horn African Bilad al Barbar per custom. Your second source is a quote from a book by Toyin Falola, an Afrocentrist and therefore a questionable source. You only have one truly unbiased source, and that's that David Robinson sentence. Predictably, Robinson does not cite an historical source placing Mogadishu in the Bilad al Zanj. Instead, he mentions that the Moroccan traveler Ibn Battuta "visited Mogadishu and then set for the south". What does Battuta himself say? Here you go:

Then I set off by sea... for the land of the Swahili and the town of Kilwa, which is in the land of Zanj.

In other words, Battuta -- the historical source -- had to 'set off by sea for the land of the Swahili' because he wasn't already in it when he 'set for the south' from Mogadishu. In short, thank you for the source above. That now makes two historical sources which don't place Mogadishu in the Bilad al Zanj as indeed expected. Middayexpress (talk) 06:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

The category is not "City-states of the Bilad az Zanj". The category is Swahili city-states. The arbitrary geographical divisions of Arab observers are not particularly relevant to a social, cultural, and historical categorization. Anyway the bottom line is this: you have utterly failed to produce sources which show that Mogadishu was not a "Swahili city-state". I have produced many to show that it is categorized as such. Hence, the category stays.

Here is yet another:

"The larger towns of present day Somalia -- Mogadishu, Merca, Barawa, Kismayu -- were Swahili towns until quite recently (the inhabitants of Barawa still speak a Swahili dialect)" [13]

The authors go on to say "The geography broadly corresponds to that found in the medieval Arab geographies. Here the coast is divided up into Berbera, Bilad az-Zanj and the Bilad Sufala, but these terms were not used with either precision or consistency, making it very difficult to tie down places mentioned in the Arabic documents.

So the Arabs divided the East African coast into three imprecise and overlapping regions. But within all of these three regions, Swahili city-states were to be found -- even when the hinterland included people of a different language and culture. The purpose of the category is not to represent medieval Arabic notions of geography. The purpose is to allow easy access by researchers using Wikipedia to information about culturally related areas. RandomCritic (talk) 16:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Bravo Random. That makes one proper source, albeit yet again a non-historical one. I understand why you'd want to downplay the importance of historical sources that actually visited the Swahili city-states and therefore knew first hand what was and what wasn't Swahili. Both Battuta and al-Idrisi identify Mogadishu as not being a part of the Swahili city-states, as I've clearly demonstrated above. You reference one modern source which states that "the larger towns of present day Somalia -- Mogadishu, Merca, Barawa, Kismayu -- were Swahili towns until quite recently (the inhabitants of Barawa still speak a Swahili dialect)". However, this is contradicted only a few sentences later when the author stops "interpreting" things himself and actually consults the historical sources in the know:

"The Bilad al Zanj would seem to cover the Swahili coast from Visiwani to Ngao, while Berbara represents the Benadir, and Sufala the Kerimba coast and beyond".

In other words, like the Sanjay Subrahmanyam source quoted earlier, even your own source confesses that historically, Benadir (where Mogadishu is situated) is in Barbara, not in the Bilad al Zanj which he too equates with the Swahili coast. Subrahmanyam again:

"Kilwa, we may note, was visited by Ibn Battuta in the 1330s, and described by that time as having surpassed Mombasa as the dominant center of the Bilad al Zanj (as the Swahili coast was known to the Arabs). However, by the late fifteenth century, sharp trading and political rivalries of some importance existed between these centres; if, in the Somali coast (Arabic, Bilad al Barbar) to the north, Muqdisho (Mogadishu) preserved its pre-eminence, the dominant position of Kilwa further south was under challenge by both Mombasa, and the ruling family at Zanzibar."

It doesn't get any clearer than that (but thanks again for the latest source as well). Middayexpress (talk) 20:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Is it worth considering some verbiage along the lines of "(Source X) and (Source Y) describe Mogadishu as one of the historical Swahili city-states, while (Source Z) and (Source A) instead describe it as something else"? (And, if you like, "(Source C) furthermore disputes the claims made by (Source Y)....") My $0.02 -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it looks like that's the only solution to the problem. However, this has to be implemented within the article's body and nowhere else. Adding a 'Swahili' category to the page as RandomCritic has been attempting to do inaccurately creates the impression that it's a forgone conclusion that not only the culture and language of Mogadishu was Swahili, but absurdly that its people were as well. Any student of Somalia knows that this is patently false. Mogadishu, while also founded by Arab/Persian traders (and consequently Islamic in religion, architecture, and customs), was not Swahili since Swahili culture and language emerged from the interaction and intermarriage between a ruling minority comprised of Arab/Persian merchants/enslavers and their majority Bantu subjects/slaves, whereas historical sources consistently describe the inhabitants of Mogadishu as "Barbar" (just like the Somalis/Afars to the north), not Zanj (Bantu/black). Mogadishans also spoke the local dialect of the Afro-Asiatic Somali language (much as the Hawiye majority in the Benadir region do now), not Swahili or any other Bantu language. From The Rise and Fall of Swahili States by Chapurukha Makokha Kusimba, p.58:

"As to the occupants of these settlements, Ibn Battuta noted that the ruler of Mogadishu was from Berbera and his speech was not Arabic or Persian, but Mogadishu, while the occupants of Mombasa and Kilwa, he noted were Zanj, extremely black, with cuttings in their faces..."

All the above is why Mogadishu is typically included in the Bilad al Barbar ("Land of the Berbers") along with northern Somalia where most Somalis were based at the time rather than the Bilad al Zanj ("Land of the Blacks") of the Swahili towns of Kenya/Tanzania and further south, so the article should not pretend otherwise. Middayexpress (talk) 06:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

On a related note (i.e. related to this dispute): I saw that Bravanese people had been added (then removed, then added etc.) to Category:Swahili. I should point out that the word "Swahili" does not even appear in that article (perhaps a minor point, since it does appear in related articles Bravanese language and Barawa). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm really glad you noticed that, Gyrofrog. Some users have been attempting to tag the Bravanese people as 'Swahili' on the flimsy basis that many of them in addition to Somali speak a Bantu dialect related to the Swahili language. So I have had to produce a source indicating to these folks what I already know -- and that they, being completely unfamiliar with offline, real-world Somalia, do not -- which is that the Bravanese are not only not Swahili people, but largely comprise an exotic mixture of Arab, Portuguese, Persian and Spanish settlers. This of course didn't sit well with our idealogues who then resorted to logging in as anonymous IPs to try and remove incognito the 'biased' UNHCR paper which asserted as much (our old friend Xetra80 notwithstanding; he's just venting! lol). Middayexpress (talk) 06:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no real dispute. No sources have been presented which claim that Mogadishu was not a Swahili city-state. Sources have been presented which state that Mogadishu was not part of the Bilad al-Zanj, but this is not the same. On the other hand a number of sources have been presented above which, although they were dismissed by User:Middayexpress as being ideologically suspect, do state that Mogadishu was a Swahili city-state, and it's easy to find more, e.g.:

1. Africa South of the Sahara: A Geographical Interpretation, Robert F. Stock, Guilford Press, 2004, ISBN 1572308680; p. 242.
2. Swahili Cosmopolitanism in Africa and the Indian Ocean World, A.D. 600–1500, Adria LaViolette, Archaeologies 4, #1 (April 2008), pp. 24-49; p. 38.

etc. Spacepotato (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Well then, given proper attribution, would you object to what I proposed? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

That is not true, Spacepotato, and those are unqualified opinions on your part. Not only have I presented sources showing Mogadishu was not a Swahili city-state (modern and historical alike), RandomCritic inadvertently has as well. You write that "sources have been presented which state that Mogadishu was not part of the Bilad al-Zanj, but this is not the same" as stating that it is not a Swahili city-state. This is incorrect since the Swahili city-states were smack-dab in the Bilad al-Zanj. I've already demonstrated this with my quote from Sanjay Subrahmanyam's The Career and Legend of Vasco Da Gama, pp.120-121:

"Kilwa, we may note, was visited by Ibn Battuta in the 1330s, and described by that time as having surpassed Mombasa as the dominant center of the Bilad al Zanj (as the Swahili coast was known to the Arabs).

However, in the very next sentence, he places Mogadishu in the Somali/Horn African Bilad al Barbar to the north and not in the Bilad al Zanj to the south, which he of course has just clearly identified as being synonymous with the Swahili coast according to the Arabs:

However, by the late fifteenth century, sharp trading and political rivalries of some importance existed between these centres; if, in the Somali coast (Arabic, Bilad al Barbar) to the north, Muqdisho (Mogadishu) preserved its pre-eminence, the dominant position of Kilwa further south was under challenge by both Mombasa, and the ruling family at Zanzibar."

This is also supported by Ibn Battuta himself when he is quoted on p.33 of Muslim Societies in African History by David Robinson (a source which ironically RandomCritic himself supplied) as having written about setting sail toward the "land of the Swahili", while already being stationed in Mogadishu:

Then I set off by sea... for the land of the Swahili and the town of Kilwa, which is in the land of Zanj.

We know that Battuta was already stationed in Mogadishu when he wrote about setting sail for the actual "land of the Swahili" because the book's author David Robinson introduces the quote above with a phrase stating that "Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Battuta, or Ibn Battuta as he is usually called, visited Mogadiscio and then set for the south. He had this to say about the towns he visited," which is immediately followed by Battuta talking about Kilwa and Mombasa in said "land of the Swahili".

I could go on and on, but I've already addressed all of this above, including the problems with the majority of RandomCritic's sources. Middayexpress (talk) 06:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Medcab

is there still a dispute here? Geoff Plourde (talk) 05:39, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge, this hasn't been resolved (just quiet, of late). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

P.S. It took me a while to figure out that "Medcab" is "Mediation Cabal." I'm quick that way. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

I will try to help you guys out. Bear with me, as I am not an expert in East Africa. Now as I see it, the question of whether or not to include a mention of Mogadishu being a city state was concluded with a Source A says this and Source B says this format? The bigger question of whether or not to include this in the Swahili category still remains correct? Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

With regards to the category, would there be consensus to add it if a rename was undertaken to make it less vague. Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:29, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

No, there wouldn't for the reasons explained in my post dated 06:33, 18 December 2008. Middayexpress (talk) 06:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What about calling the Category Potential Swahili City-States (former)? Geoff Plourde (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Why not use "colonization"?

A recent edit was to replace "colonization" by "rule" but the it.regime was a colonization. it.WP contains, about Somalia, "all'epoca colonia italiana" (~"in the time of the Italian colony"). There were very few British civilians in (the then) British Somaliland but ex-Italian Somaliland had many Italian entrepreneurs/colonists/exploiters (whichever word offends you least).--SilasW (talk) 18:01, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Current Somali conflict

The full control of Mog is reputable as of 20/05/09 and certainly not completely in control of the Somali provisional government as such the section is out of date.Matt Zero (talk) 12:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Clan Information

The information "Mogadishu is the hometown of the Abgaal, a Somali clan" doesn't really belong in Modern History, any ideas where this could go instead?Matt Zero (talk) 13:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I also think it's not really accurate, as Mogadishu is actually a cosmopolitan city and not the "preserve" of any one clan (which is what the quote seems to be insinuating). Middayexpress (talk) 20:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thats an even better point than the one I was making! And put a lot more succinctly as well!Matt Zero (talk) 12:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Picture "Mog rebuilding"

This has been deleted, correctly, and re-instated (wrongly) several times. Somali articles seem prone to getting glory for this or that thrown into and taken out of them repeatedly.That's why I left an earlier reversion of my deleting it stand, I gave up correcting it and let the nonsense reflect (perhaps unfairly) on the rest of the article. Earlier paragraphs in this Talk say the picture is not of MGQ.

The green steep unbuilt-on hills are not MGQ, they resemble something in Malaysia. The style of building is not MGQ's. There is no such rebuilding. Look at Google Earth's fine view of MGQ and note the present widespread utter rooflessness. Then compare it with a town in Malaysia.--SilasW (talk) 20:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

This matter has already been discussed. Please stop pretending as though it hasn't and as though you haven't already failed to produce actual evidence proving that the picture isn't of Mogadishu like the person who originally supplied it clearly indicated it is. Middayexpress (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Despite heated comments proclaiming "Tis Mog" the picture has been removed and not re-instated--SilasW (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

That's very perceptive of you. I could've sworn I myself did the removing. Middayexpress (talk) 04:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Population

In the edits we have multiple users removing and replacing the population based upon a website stating the 2 million mark of the 1980's, hardly contemporary information. The Guardian states that 600,000 people, more than half the population, have fled in their article [14] in December 2007. Until a more contemporary population can be found, from a more reputable site I might add (bearing in mind the email address for the UN representative is from hotmail), I recommend this should remain either unknown or blank! Matt Zero (talk) 13:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Mayor sacked

Google search reports that the mayor was sacked valid as of 24th february 2009 -http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:RhVATk1QYcgJ:www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/somalia-250209.doc+incumbent+mogadishu+mayor+2009&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk Matt Zero (talk) 12:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Etymology

I would like to know why the following was considered a "fringe theory", and thus removed?

"Though it can equally be contested that it is a Somali mispronunciation of the Swahili "mwyu wa" (last northern city), justifying the possibility of its being the northernmost of the chain of Swahili city-states on the East African coast."

The current justification for "Seat of the Shah" has only 1 citation as a reference point as such I find it contentious to say that it is the only plausible, *widely accepted* and correct explanation. As I have referenced the origin of my input as a US publication it is by no means inaccessible unlike the original "seat of the shah" quote and is penned by a recognised authority. Furthermore, my citation upholds the seat of the shah etymology whilst furthering possibilities!

I'd also like to point out that the above source is 6 years younger than the original...

Middayexpress, your comment? Matt Zero (talk) 12:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that:

1. I do not think that I'm in anyway a de facto source on Somaila, more that I just want to get some more information one way or another and
2. I've not reverted because I'm not sure (this is different to the categorisation discussion above, in that the vagueness of the information leads me to question it, the supporting wiki pages have little information and its more linguistically based than cultural history).Matt Zero (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the "Seat of Shah" reference has only one source supporting it, but many other high quality references could easily be produced as well. The Swahili "mwyu wa" etymology, on the other hand, only had one hastily compiled US government source, not a scholarly source from a Somali Studies doyen such as Said Sheikh Samatar i.e. someone who actually knows what he/she is talking about. And this is because it is a fringe, tiny minority view that's not widely accepted at all. Wikipedia is no place for exploring such wild speculations, but facts only. Middayexpress (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Calm down, I was just asking a question, no need to make such an aggressive response... Nonetheless Midday, I think you yourself should reread the fringe theory pageMatt Zero (talk) 14:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm very familiar with it, thanks. Middayexpress (talk) 04:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Number of US troops killed

I watched Black Hawk Down the other day, and, if I recall correctly, the number of troops killed came to nineteen, not eighteen as indicated in the article. Is this correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Velociostrich (talk • contribs) 23:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Eighteen US troops killed during the Battle of Mogadishu. Delta operator, Matt Rierson, who participated in the battle, was killed several days later in a mortar attack. - Gwopy 17:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwopy (talk • contribs)

Is uni functioning?

Article says uni is closed indefinitely. At what institution did the doctors whose graduation ceremony was so savagely interrupted yesterday study?--SilasW (talk) 17:54, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is documented as being born in Mogadishu. And any notable person whether ethnic Somali or not, or a Somali citizen or not, can be put in the "Notable Mogadishans" section.

User:Middayexpress's empty argument is, that she is "Not notable in a Somali context & renounced her Somali citizenship", and uses as an excuse to erase this person from the section. This user has done this many times when Ayaan Hirsi Ali was added. If lack of Somali citizenship is a criterion, than for example another personality born in Mogadishu, Alexander, Count of Schönburg-Glauchau, who never was a Somali citizen and whose "notability" in Somalia is even less, should be also ommitted. There must be no double standard.

I suspect that User:Middayexpress personally dislikes this pesronality for her controversial views. He is abusing his position and imposes his point of view, on a baseless argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.99.66.164 (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed IP; we have been over this before. And as was already explained then, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not particularly notable in a Somalian context. In fact, there appear to be quite few Somalian media pieces published on her (and those those that do exist seem to be quite critical [15]). She is also not a Somalian citizen, which of course cannot be said for the notables cited in the article. So that indeed does make her exceptional and not notable for this particular city page. This is due to the fact that, per the relevant WP:NLIST policy for embedded lists, "entries must have the same importance to the subject as would be required for the entry to be included in the text of the article according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines (including WP:Trivia sections)". However, a mention of Ms. Ali in the body of the article would qualify as trivia since she actually has little importance vis-a-vis the subject in question i.e. Mogadishu (a city she left as a child and has never returned or significantly contributed to). The same therefore applies to the embedded list at hand. For the record, I also don't have an issue excluding Alexander, Count of Schönburg-Glauchau for these same reasons, so I've removed him too. Lastly, Wikipedia is a volunteer project; and an ordinary volunteer is what I am, like most other editors here, not an admin with a "position" (not sure how you arrived at the conclusion). In future, I also suggest you remember to assume good faith and refrain from being uncivil. Thanks, Middayexpress (talk) 04:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Mogadishu/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

==B-class assessment== B-class rating after consideration. The article has a map showing where it is in the world, but it is missing a map of the city itself. Sections of the article do not cite references. It is missing a section on its history between the independence of Somalia to the Somali Civil War, c. 1960–1991. --Petercorless 02:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 02:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 21:43, 3 May 2016 (UTC)