Talk:Mishmar HaEmek/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Aircorn (talk · contribs) 20:55, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments

• Next to the kibbutz is the manmade Mishmar HaEmek forest, a section of the Ramot Menashe park,[4] listed as a biosphere reserve by UNESCO and was planted by the Jewish National Fund and members of the kibbutz. This sentence is not clear. Is it talking about different things or is the forest in the park? Needs rewording.
  • I understand this now. It was the two commas followed by the ands that had me thinking it was a list. If you want you could just change the ...park,[4] listed... to "...park.[4] It is listed...". AIRcorn (talk) 09:21, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Changed it now to "Next to the kibbutz is the manmade Mishmar HaEmek forest, planted by the Jewish National Fund and members of the kibbutz. It is a section of the Ramot Menashe park, listed as a biosphere reserve by UNESCO."--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:38, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
• Why are the names bolded in prestate history?
  • It is common in books and encyclopedia that names are bolded. I think it matches MOS:BOLD.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:10, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
    • I am not so sure. Mishmar HaEmek is already bolded in the lead and Kibbutz Hashomer Hatzair Bet is not yet a redirect. Even if it was the name and bolding should be in in the first couple of paragraphs of an article, or at the beginning of a section of an article. AIRcorn (talk) 08:52, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
      • Alright then, I changed it back to normal.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:45, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
• In 1924 the JNF bought some 30,175 dunams of lands... Is lands supposed to be plural?
  • Fixed.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:10, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
• ...which was then declared as the birthday of the kibbutz. Is that the 21st or 19th?
  • It is the 21st. I know it is quite wierd the members chose the day they received the message as the birthday, rather than the actual day the baby was born. Can you think about a better way to phrase it?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:10, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
    • That is a little confusing. How about "The birthday of the kibbutz was declared as 21 January 1922. This was the date the news of the birth of the first baby, born two days earlier, reached the members." You can use or alter it as you see fit. AIRcorn (talk) 09:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
      • I think I'll remove the part about the baby and keep the date. In another, more reliable source (a report of HaShomer HaTzair movement from 1927), 21 January 1922 is mentioned as the day the kibbutz gathered (i.e. the founding members). The source for the baby story is the website of the kibbutz.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

• In 1925 the kibbutz, which consisted of 60 men and women, and six children... Long and awkward run on sentence.
  • I have expanded the entire paragraphed and re-written few of its parts. The changes can be seen here.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:46, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• ...despite concerns of the Jewish Agency about the resettlement in the region. What were these concerns?
  • I've removed this line, as it written very vaguely in the source.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

• ...and was constructed by the members of the kibbutz in order to reduce the costs... Another awkward to read sentence. I would consider removing this part unless you think it is important. Otherwise maybe a reword.
  • Broke into two sentences: The children's house was the educational institution of the kibbutz and was planned in 1931 but only built in 1937 after the needed funds were raised. It was constructed by the members of the kibbutz in order to reduce the costs, on a small hill near the Kibbutz..--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:56, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• In 1936 graduates of Hashomer Hatzair established a gar'in... Whats a gar'in? Also another awkward sentence. I think you should consider splitting some of these up instead of using multiple conjunctions.
  • Added a wikilink to the article of gar'in. Editted the sentence to: A gar'in of Hashomer Hatzair graduates settled in the kibbutz for one year until they moved to Rishon LeZion in 1937 and in 1946 they established the kibbutz of Hatzor.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:41, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• dozens of thousands of trees were burnt Dozens of thousands is an odd way to present a number. Can it be more specific?
  • Changed it to "tens of thousands". I searched for a source with how many trees were burnt, but I couldn't find any.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• On 2 February 1938 a member of the kibbutz... Another long sentence. This one uses who three times.
  • Changed it to: "On 2 February 1938 a member of the kibbutz named Abraham Goldschleger who was a guide for Ein HaShofet was ambushed and murdered by residents of Al-Kafrayn. Two residents of Ein HaShofet who accompanied him were also killed in the attack."
• The Palmach used the trees as cover for their main training camp and its fighters worked in the kibbutz. Not obvious how this fits. Who are the Palmach? What trees? How does this fit in with the preceding sentences.
  • Changed to: The Palmach (an elite force of the Jewish Haganah underground organization) used the trees in the nearby forest as cover for their main training camp and its fighters worked in the kibbutz.
• Main article: Battle of Mishmar HaEmek Is there supposed to be a sub heading here?
  • Added a "Battle of Mishmar HaEmek" section. I would name it "1948 war", but the majority of the section, except for one line, is about that single battle.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• Apparently the Iraqis wanted to attack Ramat David Airbase but hit the kibbutz instead. Why apparently? Apparently to whom? Doesn't sound very encyclopaedia, especially in wikipedias voice. Maybe just better to attribute.
  • Apparently to Yoav Gelber, the writer of the book and source. I thought about writing "according to Yoav Gelber" but that felt like too much for a single incident in a village's history.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
    • It is the use of "Apparently" that I think needs attribution. It is written like an opinion and we should not present opinions in wikipedias voice. AIRcorn (talk) 21:27, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
• Should the State of Israel be a sub heading of history?
  • When I wrote it, the sub heading was "After Israeli independence". I will reinsert this heading, and I will also re-split the "prestate" section into "before the establishment of the settlement" (until 1926) and "early years" (until 1948).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• Tama is one of the biggest players in the worldwide market for this product ... Run on sentence.
  • Splitted: Tama is one of the biggest players in the worldwide market for this product and works with equipment makers such as John Deere. It has factories in three countries with a total number of 900 workers.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• In the factory the employees and executives who are residents of the kibbutz all earn the same amount of money while the non-kibbutz residents who are employed in the factory earn according to their work Don't quite follow the logic here. Are the non-residents on a contract while the others all get the same wage no matter their position?
  • Yes. That's the concept of the kibbutz. It was a somewhat communistic society, and Mishmar HaEmek retains some of it.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I've fixed of the issues: "lands" to "land"; "60 men and women, and six children" to "60 adults and six children"; "dozens of thousands" to "tens of thousands".

I'll address the other issues when I'll be next to a computer. Most of the run-on sentences were translated from Hebrew. I'll work on that too.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 07:36, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Don't feel like you have to rush too much. I understand that you may only get to work on it on weekends so I won't close it early as long as we keep communicating. AIRcorn (talk) 09:16, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Next time I'll be home will be on 18 October. I might be able to fix some wording issues through my phone, but not major things.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

break

• The location was symbolic, as the location on a hill higher than the rest of the kibbutz was to signify the importance of education. This sentence seems to be saying the same thing twice. Maybe tighten to "Its location on a hill higher than the rest of the kibbutz symbolized the importance of education".
  • Yea, I like this wording.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• The population of Mishmar HaEmek was recorded in Israeli censuses This is basically repeating the table.
  • Is this so bad? It is either the table or the section. The section includes the sources, but is a bit messy, and the table can't stay without a section, and a demographics section is neccessariy. I think it is good to have the best of both worlds. I will probably add some information from the 2008 census, about male-female ratio, ages, labour statistics and more things I could find.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
    • It is not so much repeating the information, but repeating the information pretty much verbatim. I like your idea of adding more to the text. AIRcorn (talk) 21:31, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
      • Added more.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:32, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
• Seven strata (layers) were found, which date as early as the early Neolithic period and as late as the late Ottoman period. Early as the early and late as the late. Why not just from the early to the late?
  • Hmm, well since it's archeological history is so wide, "as late as" and "as early as" fit here, but yes indeed it sounds funny with the "late ottoman" and "early neolithic". I'll change it to what you suggested, it sounds better.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
• A layer of stones that contained finds from the Pottery Neolithic period was exposed in a nearby site. Not sure what this is adding?
  • Removed. It refers to another location within the site, at the same stratum, but it doesn't add much.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
• In the fifth stratum, whose finds were only found in a limited region in the south of the excavation area, three rows of stones that formed a rectangular space were built upon a floor were exposed. Grammar
  • Could you fix yourself? I am not that good with English grammar.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
• Is there a suitable link for Wadi Rabah. i would even consider redlinking it if not as it seems like an encylcopaedic article.
  • There is in German, de:Wadi-Rabah-Kultur, but not in English.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
• According to Micah Linn of Mishmar HaEmek Is there more to Micah apart from than living in the village? Why is his opinion mentioned? Is he an elder or a historian?
  • Couldn't find anything in the source or the web. I can only assume he is an elder.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
• The Archaeology section went into a lot of detail and to be honest it was a bit of a chore to read through. I would consider trimming it up a bit to include the main points. Not sure we need a strata-by-strata level of description.
  • I understand what you are saying, but I am a big Archeology lover, and I found it very difficult to shorten it, as I think it contains a lot of information. I decided to keep the "strata-by-strata" level of description, but removed some sentences that went too much in detail.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
• That is a lot of notable people for a small village. I would like to see some more cites there though. As someone who also live in a small village I am aware of how they tend to claim everyone who passes through so it would be nice to get some better context. For example a short description describing their relationship to the village (born, schooled, died, lived 1970-1980 etc) would be nice.

Aircorn would you think it is relevant that a German Jewish athlete was a member of the kibbutz for three years in the 30s, working in agriculture is notable enough for the article? Most of these notable residents were mirrored by other users from the Hebrew Wikipedia.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:59, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

If it was presented like that, with information putting his association to the village in context, then it is fine. AIRcorn (talk) 21:31, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

• Whats the purpose of the Bibliography? Did you use that for some of your references? It is fine I am just curious.
• The lead is a little weak. I would expect a better summary of the article. It mentions no history. It also says some things that are not included in the body in much detail. Not terribly worried about the jurisdiction of Megiddo Regional Council, but the one of the few kibbutzim that have not undergone privatization should probably get acknowledged better in Economy
• I have also put a few tags in. I imagine the cites are already present, but I feel those particular sentences are saying things that require a dedicated cite.

That concludes my review of the text. Thanks for your patience. I understand that you are busy so am happy for you to work on the above when you have time. I am flexible with most points, so don't feel you have to blindly accept my critique. AIRcorn (talk) 08:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Other comments

Per MOS:LEAD, which is part of the GA criteria (the it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections portion of "Well-written"), the lead should be two to three paragraphs long given the size of the article, and as noted above, it needs to better summarize the article and not contain any significant information not already in the body of the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:29, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Aircorn, BlueMoonset I've epxanded the lead now.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. We had a a long weekend and I was somewhere with no internet apart from what I had on my phone and have just now caught up with jobs back home. I will have a look now and hopefully we can pass this. AIRcorn (talk) 23:03, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Final comments

Looking really good. Just a few more points.

• From the lead. Its economy was based Has this changed or should it read "Its economy is based..."
• The notable residents section. Maybe you would consider some organisation. Suggestions would be putting the members of the Knesset together and maybe ordering by most notable. I looked at every persons article without a cite and while they all mention Mishmar, not all have cites to confirm this.
• Also check my last edit here and make sure you are happy with the changes.

Apart from that I think we are good to go. AIRcorn (talk) 00:06, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I'll go over these when I'll be home. I consider making a section for landmarks. There are some in the kibbutz (a museum, an historical cave, a cemetery with famous people etc.).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 08:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Aircorn I am done.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:32, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

• Excellent. I am happy to pass this. AIRcorn (talk) 06:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)