Talk:Mir Anees

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://smma59.wordpress.com/2006/09/01/karbala-by-mir-babar-ali-anees-1803-1874/. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. John of Reading (talk) 10:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I have also removed a "copied and wikilinked" version of the poet's entry in the "Encyclopaedic dictionary of Urdu literature" (2007), as shown in this Google Books link. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://allpoetry.com/poem/8540957-Karbala_Part_I-by-Mir_Babar_Ali_Anees. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. John of Reading (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The page is available "for educational purposes", which is not a free enough license for Wikipedia. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Expansion of Article for its switch over to appropriate category

Some contents to article and Three new sections have been added. The empty sections would soon be composed of material from published and reliable sources. Help from cooperative editors is also solicited.Nannadeem (talk) 11:06, 13 July 2014 (UTC).

Expansion of article claims its proper categorization. Thus tag of stub-class has been removed.

I have kind permission from Dr. Taqi Abidi for using his researched contents and material. Can I upload Pictures of Mir Anis from URL of drtaqiabidi.com - guidance from admin is requested. Nannadeem (talk) 13:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

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Neutral tone / reliability / verifiability

Wikipedia requires citations to reliable, authoritative, and neutral third-party sources. Two good sets of Wikipedia guidelines that I have found really useful can be found HERE and HERE. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 09:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Please note that WP:V doesn't require text to be sourced; it requires content to be verifiable. Even the source is not required to be a neutral source always. Nothing is wrong with a WP:BIASEDSOURCE. RezviMasood (talk) 11:48, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Also if the quality of a source is challenged but the source is considered reliable, then deletion is a no-no; instead, it should be tagged with Template:Better source. That way, editors know to come here to the talk page and discuss potential replacements. RezviMasood (talk) 07:13, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Hagiographic

The tone of this article is hagiographic. Some editors seem to think that, just because they provide citations, it is acceptable to paint the subject as virtually superhuman. I'm merely trying to keep the article reliable, accurate, neutral and useful. GorgeCustersSabre (talk) 02:30, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Can the following paragraph be called hagiographic? In my opinion it cannot be called hagiographic, because firstly, it narrates two contending views published as late as 1972 in a compendium on the poet. Secondly hagiography by definition is "the biography of a saint or highly developed spiritual being in any of the world's spiritual traditions". and the subject Mir Anis was neither a "saint" nor a "spiritual being". He was only another poet. Thirdly, the concerned para is not a biographic account. It is a critique of his poetry. With a claimed deficiency in his work as also a comparison wit another poet Shakespeare, mentioning the latter with equal admiration for his art. None of the two quotation mentioned below is attempting to paint Mir Anis, anything other than a poet and not in any case a "Superhuman". The researchers need to know that these opinions have been expressed about the art of the poet. Let me add that the source is a compendium of unbiased essays written by scholars in the field discussing different aspects of the poet and it was published way back in 1972. I have a copy ready with me.

This may kindly be restored to "Work and Contribution".

"Mir Anis has been criticized for playing on religious sentiments of a particular community and neglecting the poetic principles thereby giving his work a vertical appeal at the expense of killing the true horizontal poetic beauty. On the other hand he has been compared with Shakespeare in these words "Shakespeare creates imaginary plots and characters with such perfection that they appear real to the reader. Anis narrates events and characters fossilized in history with such perfection that they become alive before the eyes of his readers and audience" " RezviMasood (talk) 10:08, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

So it seems none else other than one respected friend deems above paragraph as hagiography... I am thus going to add it to the page RezviMasood (talk) 15:42, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Further, in case anyone has a negative criticism of the poet he/she is welcome to add it quoting a reliable source. Repeated deletions of added information will not help in improving the article in any way. RezviMasood (talk) 07:38, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Mir Anis and the Art of Storytelling

The following text may kindly be added under the head:"Work and contribution" as it is a novel dimension reported about the art of the poet and is based on an extensive academic research relying on many Urdu and non Urdu Sources on the subject. It has been independently reported by at least two daily newspapers in India and reviewed by one in Pakistan:

"In her book "Mir Anis Aur Qissa Goi Ka Fan", based on her Doctoral Research in the Department of Urdu at University of Lucknow, Dr. Farhat Nadir Rizvi asserts that Mir Anis harnessed all elements of Storytelling in his work despite the fact that he was constrained in using his imagination with full freedom of a master story teller because the events he was reporting were real historical events relating to the Battle of Karbala."

RezviMasood (talk) 11:14, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

References

 Additional information needed As the information is based on Dr. Rizvi's doctoral research, kindly provide either a DOI or the dissertation number for confirmation. Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ  11:54, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

UPDATE: I'm not showing any dissertations for Dr. Farhat Nadir Rizvi in English.  Question: Is it in English, and if so, has it been submitted yet? Please advise.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ  12:05, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Dear User talk:Spintendo the research was conducted at the Department of Urdu at University of Lucknow under Prof. Anis Ashfaq the former Professor and Head. For Dissertation numbers etc I will have to contact the authoress / researcher. Meanwhile I can tell you that this has been reported by Urdu Daily Qaumi Khabrein, Lucknow on 9, November 2017, Urdu Daily Qaumi TanzeemLucknow 9, November 2017 and Urdu Weekly Nawaye Waqt Family Magazine, Lahore Pakistan on (Dec 10-16, 2017) P.46 and the book itself is available at ISBN-13: 978-1977566805 / ISBN-10: 1977566804. No the Dissertation was in Urdu, the book is in Urdu and the research was conducted a few years back. If the book suffices it is here ISBN-13: 978-1977566805 / ISBN-10: 1977566804, if not let me contact the authoress. Warm regardsRezviMasood (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Update: The Dissertation has been submitted and Doctorate Degree awarded many years back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RezviMasood (talk • contribs) 12:30, 16 December 2017 (UTC) RezviMasood (talk) 12:42, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Is there an English version of the book?  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ  14:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Not yet RezviMasood (talk) 04:22, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

In order to add the information from your original request, we would need to locate an editor who reads Urdu, in order to verify what is referenced in Dr. Rizvi's book. As an alternative, a very minimal amount of text from Dr. Rizvi's work (one or two sentences) could be posted here on the talk page in the original Urdu along with proper attribution to Dr. Rizvi, in which case Google's translate software would be used to minimally interpret parts of the text in order to verify the proposals. Wikipedia policy allows Google translations as an accompaniment to be used in assisting a formal translation. From there on we could work to including the information into the article. May I also ask what is the nature of your conflict of interest with the author — are you a paid employee, colleague, or a member of her family? Please advise.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ  23:20, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you so much @Spintendo: Thank you for the suggest I will do that. Though my experience with Google Translator is that it plays havoc specially when translating from Urdu more so with literary Urdu and specially in sentence structure. Okay no problem in that case I will also give my verbatim translation to you to compare. About COI - I am neither an employee nor a colleague. Whether I am a family member, will depend on how do you define "family". She is my half niece. RezviMasood (talk) 01:12, 18 December 2017 (UTC) RezviMasood (talk) 01:12, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Update for @Spintendo:: I quote her from p.468, the concluding chapter of the book in Urdu:

، ظاہر ہے انیس کے لئے تاریخی حقائق کی پابندی بڑی حد تک ضروری تھی، وہ ہوا پر ایسے محل تعمیر نہیں کرسکتے تھے جنکی ہوشربائی صدفی صد تخیل طرازیوں کی مرہونِ منت ہو، عناصرِ قصہّ میں بھی، وہ دلکشائی اور سروروانبساط پیدا کرنے والے تجربات و خیالات کی ویسی ریل پیل مرثیہ جیسے سنجیدہ مذہبی اور بڑی حد تک المیہ موضوع کے پیش نظر ممکن نہ تھی، مگر ان پابندیوں کے باوجود انیس کے اعجازِ بیان اور جدتِ طبع نے غیرمحسوس طریقے پر اس کمی کو پورا کر دیا، دراصل انہوں نے مرثیہ گوئی کے پردے میں قصہّ گوئی کے فن کو کچھ اس کامیابی کے ساتھ برتا ہے کہ ہماری عقل دنگ رہ جاتی ہے، اور ان کا یہ فن ہم سے متقاضی ہے کہ ہم انیس کو محض ایک مرثیہ گو نہ سمجھیں بلکہ ان کے فن کے، ان اضانی پہلوؤں کی بھی عظمت تسلیم کریں جنکی بنیاد پر ہمیں اس حقیقت کا اعتراف کرنا پڑے گا کہ وہ صرف ایک مرثیہ گو نہ تھے بلکہ ایک کامیاب ترین قصہّ گو بھی تھے

My Translation: "Obviously, for Anis, it was to a great extent necessary to respect the historical facts, and he could not build such castles in the air which owed their magnificence to 100% imagination, nor was it possible (for him) to stuff a serious, religious, and to a great extent tragic subject like Marsiya with pleasant sensations and fantasies creating euphoria and extacy; but despite these constraints the eloquence and innovative mind of Anis made up for these deficiencies and he dexterously harnessed the art of storytelling behind the Marsia, leaving us spell-bound, compelling us not to regard him only as a Marsiya Writer but to accept these additional qualities and that he was not only a Marsiya Writer but a successful storyteller too..." Submitted for favour of consideration RezviMasood (talk) 07:35, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Update: Thus I want it to be reported in these words:

""In her book "Mir Anis Aur Qissa Goi Ka Fan", based on her Doctoral Research in the Department of Urdu at University of Lucknow, Dr. Farhat Nadir Rizvi asserts that Mir Anis harnessed all elements of Storytelling in his work despite the fact that he was constrained in using his imagination with full freedom of a master story teller because the events he was reporting were real historical events relating to the Battle of Karbala."

This will not be an assertion that Mir Anis was a storyteller. This will only be a report that Dr. Rizvi in her Doctoral Research published in her book has found him to be a storyteller

RezviMasood (talk) 13:54, 18 December 2017 (UTC) RezviMasood (talk) 13:54, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

So @Spintendo:, I come to the conclusion that there is neither a COI nor any other issue left and the suggested text can be added to the page. Thanks and regards. RezviMasood (talk) 08:32, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

References

1. As far as using a paraphrase of her assertions, the information needs to be presented as coming from her, but without specifically mentioning her book title or her doctoral research. In mentioning her assertions, the title of the book should be left out. The book title will show in the references. How it would be mentioned would be like this: "Author Farhat Nadir Rizvi has asserted that.." then followed by what she is asserting from her book/research.
2. Please decide whether you wish to (1) paraphrase what Dr. Rizvi is asserting or (2) directly quote her, or (3) a combination of both. If you choose the third option, then you will need to provide the passage where the battle of Karbala is mentioned. But please, only add one more sentence when you locate it. We dont want too much of her text reproduced here on the talk page, and its already much too much. In your example above, you are combining both a direct quotation and a paraphrase of her material. We would have to clearly delineate what is "quote" and what is paraphrase, something very difficult to do with two languages. For example, I dont see the Battle of Karbala mentioned in her text, but you added that in your proposal. Adding it to the translation would only be possible after the closing of the quotation marks, the signal that a direct quote is finished. Decide which of these 3 you wish to use, then we can move to the next step.
3. If you choose either of the options which include the direct quote (option 2 or 3) the quote used must be no more than one or two sentences only. Regards, Spintendo ᔦᔭ 06:33, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you @Spintendo: Let's first try paraphrasing. How about the following text?

Farhat Nadir Rizvi, in her research has propounded that, what Anis was reporting was based on historical facts thus he did not have the freedom to base his narrative on pure imagination and fantasy, yet he dexterously harnessed the art of storytelling in his work and we have to accept that he was not only a Marsiya Writer but also a successful storyteller RezviMasood (talk) 11:09, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Ok, so to paraphrase your paraphrase, what the authoress (Dr. Rizvi) is saying is that during this time there were religious restrictions on what a Marsiya writer like Mir Babar Ali Anis could write about, but due to his creativity in these matters he was still able to incorporate the art of storytelling into his practice. Is that right? If this is correct, then the next step would be to decide where in the article you would like this text to go. May I suggest placing it under "Work and contribution", as there is already what looks like another interpretation of the work that says "Mir Anis’s Marsiyas are the best premodern model in Urdu of narrative-historical, narrative-lyrical, and oral-dramatic poetry..". I think mentioning Dr. Rizvi's interpretation of Mir Anis' work as flourishing despite a backdrop of restrictions would be a nice addition to that section of the article. Spintendo ᔦᔭ 18:24, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you @Spintendo: yes you are right it belongs to where you said.

The restrictions were partly religious and partly technical. Marsiya is a narrative of what actually happened within recorded history. The plot, the sequence of events, the characters and the conflict - every thing is recorded by historians in minute but rather drab historical narratives. So anyone attempting to write a Marsiya cannot deviate too far away from them in contrast to the writers of Dastaan or Mathnavi, two other genres of long Urdu poems or say, Shakespeare, who could freely use his imagination in creating these elements.

Would you kindly paraphrase the paraphrase and insert it exactly where you suggested?

RezviMasood (talk) 01:41, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Was thinking of a more comprehensive discussions of the subject and have arrived at the following suggestion for insertion:

Mir Anis was criticized for playing on religious sentiments giving his work a vertical appeal at the expense of poetic beauty. While Farhat Nadir Rizvi, in her research, has propounded that Anis was narrating recorded history and was therefore restricted in use of pure imagination and fantasy, yet he dexterously harnessed the art of storytelling in his work and we cannot but accept that he was not only a Marsiya writer but also a successful storyteller. Anis has been compared with Shakespeare. Shakespeare creates imaginary plots and characters so beautifully that they appear real to the reader; Anis narrates events and characters fossilized in history so vividly that they become alive in the eyes of his audience.

RezviMasood (talk) 03:23, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@Spintendo: kindly wait I have not yet finished editing the text suggested above. Have to go offline due to some other urgent work... Sorry RezviMasood (talk) 03:36, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

@Spintendo: I have finished. Kindly review it now. RezviMasood (talk) 07:33, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

So I am introducing the said paragraph at the place suggested by @Spintendo:. If any one has a second opinion regarding this, she/he may kindly express it here.RezviMasood (talk) 03:49, 26 December 2017 (UTC)