Talk:Mid Down (UK Parliament constituency)

Objections to my constituency scheme

Following objections to having seperate articles for the UK Parliament and Dáil Éireann versions of this constituency, I have now combined the two. If no one objects to this format I will apply it to other areas. --Gary J 19:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I propose that the UK constituency articles about the seats used for the 1918-22 UK Parliament would include a section about the First Dáil. The Northern Ireland Parliament constituencies articles would include a section about the Second Dáil. Dáil Éireann constituency articles (for seats in what became the Irish Free State) could commence in 1921 with a section about the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the Second Dáil. The same constituencies were used in 1921 and 1922 and they were distinct from those used for the UK Parliament.

If this scheme is generally agreed then I will modify the list of historic Dáil constituencies to link up to whichever article contains the relevant information.

Another point is that it might be helpful to have a consensus on what information should be included in a constituency article. The minimum seems to me to be a one or two sentence introduction, followed by about four-six sections. (1) A brief description of what the constituency covered and previous and subsequent constituencies covering the area (which I have tended to call Boundaries and Boundary Changes). Numbers of seats at particular periods of the constituency history could be included here. (2) An optional section about Politics. This is the one which could be long, short or absent depending upon available information. (3) An optional section about the bodies the elected member(s) could have served in 1918-1922, for those constituencies which were affected. (4) A list of members elected, their dates of election or periods of service and party. Possibly including dates of birth and death, but that is less critical. (5) Elections. Brief statement of the type of election system followed by results. This is fairly straightforward for first past the post and bloc vote elections but more difficult for STV ones. I notice that the articles about the current Dáil constituencies do not set out the counts in full. Is it felt worthwhile to try to give full results (subject to availability of the information) or just aim at the first preference figures? (6) Reference, see also and external sources. Perhaps these should be in seperate sub-sections rather than sections. *Having said that, if it is the consensus of those interested in the subject, that there should be only one article for each constituency in each period then that would be less work. I presume the suggestion is that the UK constituency articles about the seats used for the 1918-22 UK Parliament would include a section about the First Dáil. The Northern Ireland Parliament constituencies articles would include a section about the Second Dáil. Dáil Éireann constituency articles (for seats in the Irish Free State) could commence in 1921 with a section about the Southern Ireland House of Commons and the Second Dáil. The same constituencies were used in 1921 and 1922 and they were distinct from those used for the UK Parliament.

• If this scheme is agreed I could modify the list of historic Dáil constituencies to link up to whichever article contained the relevant information.

• Another point is that it might be helpful to have a consensus on what information should be included in a constituency article. The minimum seems to me to be a one or two sentence introduction, followed by about four-six sections. (1) A brief description of what the constituency covered and previous and subsequent constituencies covering the area (which I have tended to call Boundaries and Boundary Changes). Numbers of seats at particular periods of the constituency history could be included here. (2) An optional section about Politics. This is the one which could be long, short or absent depending upon available information. (3) An optional section about the bodies the elected member(s) could have served in 1918-1922, for those constituencies which were affected. (4) A list of members elected, their dates of election or periods of service and party. Possibly including dates of birth and death, but that is less critical. (5) Elections. Brief statement of the type of election system followed by results. This is fairly straightforward for first past the post and bloc vote elections but more difficult for STV ones. I notice that the articles about the current Dáil constituencies do not set out the counts in full. Is it felt worthwhile to try to give full results (subject to availability of the information) or just aim at the first preference figures? (6) Reference, see also and external sources. Perhaps these should be in seperate sub-sections rather than sections. --Gary J 19:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Some points

Gary, I have a problem with the way you have chosen to name the articles. Take Galway County (UK Parliament constituency) for example. MPs from this constituency were always referred to as the MP for County Galway, not Galway County. The latter sounds like an Americanism to be honest. In addition, the constituency was not created in 1801. It was in existence long before that and the MP for the entity in 1800 for example was the same person in 1805. While the Act of Union did change the parliament in which the constituency representative sat, the constituency and its voters remained the same.

Therefore, I would suggest that Galway County (UK Parliament constituency) be renamed to County Galway (constituency) and the same proceedure be repeated for all other Irish constituencies.

It would be best to avoid including terms such as UK parliament of Dáil Éireann in brackets in the names of articles on constituencies. Each article could specify where the elected member chose to sit. --Damac 13:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Damac, I appreciate the points you are making. There were reasons I made the choices I did, but I am perfectly prepared to make changes if that is the consensus view. I have already conceeded that articles about the constituencies in use in Ireland 1918-22 should not be split into seperate UK Parliament and Dáil articles.

• The reason why UK Parliament constituency was used was to tie up with the practice that had developed in articles about Parliamentary constituencies in Great Britain. However I suppose (except for a few historic Scottish constituencies and seats in the devolved bodies established in recent years) there is not the corresponding difficulty about representation of the constituency in the Westminster Parliament and a different institution. I see that the modern Scottish Parliament constituencies are being given articles seperate from the UK Parliament ones.

• All the Irish constituencies used for the UK Parliament in 1801 had existed in the Parliament of Ireland before that date. I took the view that they should be treated as new UK Parliament constituencies, rather than the continuation of the Parliament of Ireland constituency. I accept this is inconsistent with the practice for Great Britain, as those constituency articles do combine information for the Parliaments of England, Great Britain and the United Kingdom.

• What to use for a constituency name is always difficult. There is some inconsistency between official practice at different times and the word order which compilers of election results find convenient may not coincide with the official usage. It is convenient in indexing a large number of constituencies to put the name of the area first, so Dublin County South makes more sense than South County Dublin.

• In putting County after rather than before county constituency names (which I have done where there is a borough constituency with the same name at the same time) I am following the practice adopted in Parliamentary Election Results in Ireland, 1801-1922. It is also the one used in the Oireachtas members database [1] for Waterford County in 1918 and Dublin County seats after 1921, where there might be confusion with Dublin City. The Electoral Act 1923 (of the Irish Free State) does not include County as a prefix or a suffix to the official name of County constituencies. I concede that the Electoral (Amendment) Act 1969 does use North County Dublin and South County Dublin as the official name of those constituencies. I see all this as some evidence that there is a special practice in constituency naming which sometimes overrides the normal usage with County first. Perhaps the answer would be to just index, for example, 'Limerick' for the county constituency and 'Limerick City' for the borough where there could be confusion (making clear in the article the official name from the legislation if that is available).

• I think rather than making periodic changes in numerous articles when individuals raise points, I should produce a comprehensive list of what I propose so that those who are interested can comment in one place. This would involve all the constituencies used in Ireland for various legislatures, with the index name I would propose to use.

See List of Irish constituencies. It may be some time before this is fully completed, but comments could be put in the talk section. --Gary J 17:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC) Revised --Gary J 18:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Examples and links

I have now completed List of Irish constituencies and also prepared a draft article Dublin University (constituency). This constituency has existed for almost 300 years so it is a good example of the more complex articles the proposed policy would require. --Gary J 14:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

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