Talk:Mid-Peninsula Highway

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Planned route is pure speculation at this time. No source has been cited. I have made numerous attempts to get information on the proposed route from provincial, regional, and city of welland officials and no one will say.

Further, the idea of using 58A to cross the canal is ridiculous. That crossing is a combined road/rail tunnel. The road section is only two lanes with a very steep approach. The rail section is 1) still in use and 2) not wide enough to support more than two lanes of traffic of its own (and then only if you jackhammer out vertical concrete supports). It would require massive construction to retrofit that crossing to a 400 series highway standard, and even then it would be an ongoing bottleneck.

I am not using this to argue for or against the construction project, I'm just stating that speculation for a planned route is absurd, and totally unsourced.

--Uncle Bungle 17:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The dual-line rail tunnel is actually abandoned, it's only the single-line tunnel that's in use. The tunnel could be easily retrofitted, and it would cost much less than a new crossing. This was the reason why 58A wasn't downloaded to region along with just about every other two-lane provincial highway in the region. Regional Niagara shows this ROW being used for the future MPC on their website, and it was the memory of this map that I used to describe the routing. I'd have to dig through the website, but I do agree that the current description is easier to read. I have discussed this issue extensivly with my friends at the MTO and my friends who are into highway design, and they all agree that the 58A routing -is- possible, and more than likely the prefered routing. Snickerdo 06:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sources would be very nice to have indeed, I don't suppose "the route which would most make sense" is very encyclopedical. Even if deleted from the main article, I'd keep the information somewhere, on this talk page for instance, since it is interesting for transport nerds -- me for instance.

Going slightly offtopic, 58A makes most sense as I see it. Short of building a new tunnel, we have three of them. If Thorold was to be used, we're pretty much stuck using the 406 and QEW afterwards, as Niagara Escarpment/Short Hills blocks the route all the way south to Pelham, where the Fonthill/Welland developed area starts. Similarly for the East Main Tunnel, and it would have a very sharp turn to get onto the 406 right after the tunnel to boot. Thanks to the railroad, 58A goes straight across all of Welland. I'm not a civil engineer (regrettably) and I don't know how the costs of widening the 58A tunnel (and there is room for widening) would compare with building an all-new tunnel, but even if they did go for the latter, they don't really have much space for it, save for the very tip of Dain City, and that route would have to cross Mud Lake conservation area. --qviri 18:29, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, I decrystal-balled the article myself. What I left is what I feel are sure bets -- after starting at or close to Fort Erie, it will have to cross the canal somehow, and MTO would have to fall on their heads to not make it pass south of Hamilton. The original content is preserved here for posterity etc. --qviri 19:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The route currently planned would run west from the QEW in Fort Erie to Highway 140 in Welland, where it would cross the Welland Canal along the Highway 58A coridor, linking with a new section of Highway 406. It will then cross Highway 58 between Welland and Port Colborne before heading northwest to Fonthill and Smithville. From here, it will head west across the south side of Hamilton, connecting to the Lincoln M. Alexander Parkway with a new north-south freeway in the Dartnall Road area constructed by the City of Hamilton, before passing to the south of Hamilton/John C. Munro International Airport and a proposed Highway 6 freeway. It will then turn north to connect to Highway 403. From here, two routings are proposed. It will either turn east, pass north of Waterdown and finally connected with Highway 407 on the northern edge of Burlington. An alternative is to connect the highway directly to Highway 401 by means of Milton.

qviri thanks for your changes to the main body of the article. What follows is basically a generalization on the topic and not related to the content of the article. You're correct ofcourse that the Thorold tunnel is totally inapropriate. That is part of a major regional east-west corridor and frankly its allready full. The main street tunnel is equally out of the question. It is not only a sharp turn but you need to get to the crossing in the first place. Widening the 406 is going to be expensive, and its rather built up on all sides. I've included some links, but judging by photos at the welland library website, the tunnel was constructed as a concrete box before the canal, and backfilled, hard to expand. I personally think we're going to see a new crossing, but thats just my two cents. For what its worth, maybe it would make sense to widen the 406, tear down the old call centres and take a nice wide sweep into the mainstreet tunnel, widen the 140 and hwy 3? Thats just my two cents. [1] [2] [3] Thanks again qviri. --Uncle Bungle 22:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

406 will not be used for the MPC at all, the Niagara Needs Assessment Study pretty much set this in stone. The Thorold Tunnel will be used for the 420 extension, this was also determined by the Niagara Needs Assessment study. The East Main tunnel will remain regional (except for the actual tunnel structure itself, which is provincial/regional). That leaves the 58A tunnel complex and a new crossing. 58A wasn't downloaded, which means that the province has some plan for it. We'll just have to wait and see. Snickerdo 06:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

This may be a stupid question - why head back towards the GTA once it crosses the 403? From the 403 you can easily get to the QEW/407 to connect to the GTA. Connecting to the 401 near Milton doesn't make much sense either - since that's just a few km west away from the north/south part of 407 -- and just a few km east of any highway 6 expressway between Guelph and Burlington/Hamilton. (Ultimately, the Hanlon through Guelph should be extended right down to Burl/Ham.) Instead, why not take the 408 north-westerly and connect to the Highway 8 (Freeport Bypass) in KW/Cambridge? This could basically parallel the downloaded Highway 8, swing up the west side of Cambridge and then you could have a monster interchange at the existing Highway 8/401.

If you went this route, and extended the Hanlon southerly, then this would eliminate the need for the 424 (which being on the east side of Cambridge, is way to close to the existing highway 6 corridor to be useful.)

Matt Emmerton 72.142.197.112 19:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

408 shield

A shield with the number 408 appears in the article, but no text indicates the reason for this (ie, how official that designation would be). If someone more familiar with the issue could either provide that text or remove the shield, that would be helpful. Radagast (talk) 15:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

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