Talk:Metro Detroit/Archive 1

WOW... that was fast, this site rules (just found it)

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Defining "Metro Detroit" as the tri-counties of Wayne, Oakland and Macomb seems time-honored by many of its residents, but the US Census views it on a much broader scale...

According to the US Office of Management and Budget (OMB), the Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) of Detroit, Michigan, in the year 2000, included the counties of Wayne, Oakland, Macomb, Lapeer, Monroe and St. Clair.

A separate MSA, centered on Ann Arbor, included the counties of Washtenaw, Lenawee and Livingston.

A third MSA, centered on Flint, consisted solely of Genessee County.

Together, the three MSAs comprised the Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Area of Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint. With a total population of 5,456,428 (US Census 2000), it ranked eighth in size in the nation.

In December 2003, the OMB, as is the wont of any bureaucracy, redefined everything...

Now, the Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area consists of two Metropolitan Divisions: Detroit-Livonia-Taylor, i.e. Wayne County; and Warren-Farmington Hills-Troy, comprising the counties of Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland and St, Clair.

Ann Arbor and Flint are still separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, each comprising its home county of Washtenaw and Genessee, respectively. Livingston County is now part of the Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA. Lenawee and Monroe Counties are now found within the newly-formed "Micropolitan" Statistical Areas of Adrian and Monroe, MI, respectively.

Got that?

All (except for the Adrian MicroSA) are combined within the newly-defined Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint, MI Combined Statistical Area, whose 2003 estimated population was 5,516,124.

You might consider updating the "Metro Detroit" entry to reflect this broader picture. I don't consider myself familiar enough with Wiki editing to attempt such an effort at this time. But I would be willing to help. 24.14.44.242 19:34, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)thomrae

Thanks, will fix accordingly. Gsgeorge 20:05, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Addresses

I'm from Chicago and visted the Detroit Metro area, and noticed that all of the addresses had some sorta code based on city? Wayne addresses are something like 33--- and Livonia is 20---. True? Untrue? some object of facination for a pattern person like myself...

Each county has it's own house numbering system. In Wayne County the east-west baseline is Woodward. The farther west or east of Woodward the higher the numbers. In Westland or Livonia a house on an east/west street is most likely to have a 30000 number. Even on the north, odd on the south. In Plymouth Twp or Canton, a house on an east/west street is likely to have a 40000 number. In other words, every house on an east/west street with the number 33333 should be at precisely the same longitude. Hope that helps. mp2dtw 00:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Anchor cities

It was my understanding that the only anchor cities were the ones defined by the census bureau, that is: Ann Arbor, Detroit, Flint, Livonia, Monroe, and Warren. Just because a city has a large population (like Lincoln Park, Port Huron) does not necessarily mean it is an anchor city. Could we get an official word on this before we go about changing it? For the record, the census.gov website lists the Detroit CMSA as a combination of these Metropolitan areas:

Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI Combined Statistical Area

 Ann Arbor, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area
 Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area (also includes Dearborn, Farmington Hills, Troy, Southfield, Pontiac, Taylor)
 Flint, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area
 Monroe, MI Micropolitan Statistical Area

That puts the total (at most) to: Ann Arbor, Dearborn, Detroit, Farmington, Flint, Livonia, Monroe, Pontiac, Southfield, Taylor, Troy, and Warren.

If I'm the confused one, let me know. But I just want to be sure we have it right.

- Gsgeorge 15:35, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'd say you are correct, at least if we are using anchor cities as a term defined by the U.S. Census. Which makes sense, since I'm not aware of other common usage. However, I'm a little concerned that we're letting the definition of Metro Detroit be hijacked by the U.S. Census. I kind of think there should be a separate definition of Metro Detroit as it is commonly understood by most people living in the area. I mean, to include places like Manchester in southwest Washtenaw County or Fowlerville in west Livingston County within Metro Detroit just doesn't make much sense from an ordinary (non-Census) perspective. Same goes for places in outlying areas of Lapeer and St. Clair counties. Actually, I'd be kind of surprised if anyone in Lapeer County thought of themselves as living in Metro Detroit. I think it is fine to talk about the CMSA in terms of national ranking--but I think the common understanding of Metro Detroit is closer to the Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA. older ≠ wiser 17:25, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. I always thought the actual definition of Metro Detroit was a bit too broad. I have several friends in Lapeer and they mostly consider themselves part of a Flint metro area. Before I knew of the census definition, I always though "Metro Detroit" was essentially the Tri-County area of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties--and nothing else. Perhaps we can edit this article to reflect both the ordinary (non-Census) and Census definitions. I always thought the article should delve a bit deeper into the culture of the area, rather than just numbers and statistics. Detroit is unique in that most people living in Oakland and Macomb counties consider themselves "Detroiters," and this article should show that. - Gsgeorge 20:07, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I too tend to think of the tri-county area as comprising Metro Detroit. But then I grew up in Birmingham in the 1950s-70s. The reality, however, is that most of the growth taking place today in the next ring of counties--especially in St. Clair, Livingston, and Lapeer--is an extension of suburban Detroit. These new residents identify more strongly with Detroit than with Port Huron, Howell or Flint. The OMB also seems to recognize the quandary this has fomented. They now have a category intended to clarify (or further muddy, depending on your point of view) the census waters of Metro Detroit that acknowledges "local opinions."

Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area – A geographic entity defined by the Federal OMB for use by Federal statistical agencies. If an area meets the requirements to qualify as a metropolitan statistical area (MSA) and has a population of one million or more, two or more PMSAs may be defined within it if statistical criteria are met and local opinion is in favor. A PMSA consists of a large urbanized county, or a cluster of such counties (cities and towns in New England) that have substantial commuting interchange. When one or more PMSAs have been recognized, the balance of the original, larger area becomes an additional PMSA; the larger area of which they are components then is designated a consolidated metropolitan statistical area CMSA).

Detroit, Ann Arbor and Flint are all PMSAs within the larger CMSA. Here's a link to the data on the Detroit PMSA.

What's not clear in this data, however, is just what counties the Detroit PMSA includes.

T Garth 06:09, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I take exception to a point made above. Oakland and Macomb Counties have never had their own "metro area". They've always been a part of the Detroit MSA, since MSAs were formed by the census bureau. Flint is an MSA, as is Ann Arbor. It was inaccurate to describe our CMSA as Detroit-Warren-Flint because Warren has never been identified as an MSA. Our MSA is Detroit and our CMSA is Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint. Warren is just a bedroom community (like Westland, Clinton Twp, Taylor or Farmington Hills), not a real city in its own right, like Detroit, Ann Arbor and Flint, or even Pontiac, Mt Clemens, Birmingham, Wyandotte and Plymouth for that matter. mp2dtw 00:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The CMSA was called Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint, but CMSAs have been replaced by CSAs and are no longer current.[1] The new CSA is called Detroit-Warren-Flint. I personally think the old name was better, like you, but we should use the current name in our article. -- Avenue 01:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Telegraph Road

Can anyone cite any info that the Dire Straits were talking about Telegraph Road of US 24 fame?

Found one website but I am not sure. Seems like it would be weird for an Englishman to write about Telegraph, and the lyrics itself only partially fit--for instance, there are no ore mines nearby. Here's the link: http://www.knopfler.net/telegraph_road/telegraph.html

Upon further reading, it appears that Yes Virginia, he did mean good ol' Telegraph. Kinda neat that someone wrote a famous song about a road I drive on all the time. :)

Southeast Michigan

I've created a new Southeast Michigan article. Some info here might be better suited for that article. While it's debatable whether all of the counties colored in on that map are truly part of "Metro Detroit," they can all (with the possible exception of Genesee) be safely considered part of SE Michigan. Funnyhat 05:56, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

area

does anyone know the area in miles of Metro Detroit? i need to know it for a paper and didn't see it on the wiki page, nor can I find it on google.

As mentioned above, it's disputable as what exactly "Metro Detroit" means. It is generally safe to assume that Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties should be included in any discussion. These are the 3 most populous and are connected thoroughly by infrastructure. Oakland County is 36mi by 36mi. - User:TheKuLeR March 16, 2006

Windsor Facts

I added some facts about Windsor in the article. Even though Windsor is in Canada it is economically very much a part of Metro Detroit. Probably Socially also with Windsor news and weather reported on Detroit Tv Newscasts for example. Politically it isn't a part of Metro Detroit but this is about Metro Detroit and not US/Canada Politics.

Windsor is not part of Metro Detroit... not politically, not economically, not socially. Being in such close proximity to the much larger US city, the Canadian city is undoubtedly influenced and there is considerable cross border investment. Nonetheless, the two cities are the result of separate forces and Windsor is in no way a suburb or extension of Detroit.

Thats news to people who live in Windsor. Windsor is most definitely economically a part of Metro Detroit. That is beyond question for anyone who is familiar with Windsor. The automotive industry is the major industry in Windsor and it is based out of Metro Detroit. Also, thousands of Windsor residents work in the US and commute daily. Socially it is definitely a part of Metro Detroit. Many if not most families in Windsor have relatives throughout the Metro Detroit area. Also it can be argued that Windsorites have more in common with the rest of Metro Detroit than they do with the Greater Toronto Area. Politically, the rates and impact of the union movement are similar between Michigan and Windsor but otherwise it is not part of rest of the Metro Detroit area. rasblue 03:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

There are two very distinct ideas at work here. A metropolitan area is one thing; an urban agglomeration is another. A metropolitan area is not any agglomeration that people perceive as being interconnected; it's a specific legal concept with specific boundaries defined by a specific set of criteria applied by a specific governmental body. Wikipedia cannot reaggregate census data at random according to our own perceptions of things; WP:V dictates that we have to reflect the official data as it stands. Nobody's denying that Windsor and Detroit have strong interconnections with each other, but they are not a single metropolitan area, because no legal jurisdiction exists which governs both cities. It is perfectly valid for Wikipedia to reflect and talk about the two cities' obvious political, social and economic interrelationships, but we must do so in a way that does not conflate those interrelationships with the very specific and precise legal and statistical concept of a metropolitan area. In a nutshell: Windsor-Detroit is a valid article; having a short Windsor-related subsection on Metro Detroit is also valid. It is not, however, valid for the Metro Detroit article to integrate Windsor information directly into Metro Detroit education, media, transportation, etc., subsections until such time as a governmental body actually begins to officially enumerate the two cities as a single metropolitan area. Bearcat 23:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is called "Metro Detroit," which is the name commonly given to the urban agglomeration in question. There is no legally defined area (MSA or CSA) called "Metro Detroit" (see discussion of anchor cities above and below). From this, one can only assume that this article is primarly a discussion of that urban agglomeration, and not just the "metropolitan area." This introduction seems to support this, mentioning the "Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA", the "Detroit-Warren-Flint CSA", and general perceptions about the area. Unfortunately, both MSA and CSA also point here. So perhaps the solution is to leave this page as the urban agglomeration "Metro Detroit" and create appropriate pages for the two legally defined areas. Cmadler 14:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I took out the Windsor sub-heading for the reasons stated above by several people. It really doesn't belong in this article, although the few references about Windsor suffice to inform the reader that Windsor has an informal presence, and that they need to go to other related articles to get a bigger picture.--Mikerussell 03:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Detroit - Ann Arbor - Windsor - Flint - Toledo Consolidated MSA

I know that is completely inaccurate... But in terms of culture and media it actually makes sence to maybe include Toledo... Maybe something like a Metro-plex like Dallas Fort Worth...

Think about it... Toledo residents visit detroit for many things, they get Detroit Radio and Television Broadcasts(of course they have they're own local but so does Flint) and Toledo is just as close to the Classicly defined "Metro Detroit" as Flint... It makes perfect sense that if you are going to include Flint, might as well include Toledo...

The census bureau does not consider Toledo to be a part of the Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint CMSA. They're who defines CMSA. I agree that Toledo and Detroit are closely related and wouldn't be surprised if we meet the census bureau's criteria in 2010. Windsor could never be considered a part of the Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint CMSA because the census bureau doesn't recognize anything outside of the US.mp2dtw 00:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Many live in Toledo and work in Detroit, it should probably be counted in Detroit's CSA. And should at least be mentioned. Thomas Paine1776 21:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Population

Metro Detroit population figures should not change until all CSA and MSA's in Wikipedia are updated. Thomas Paine1776 21:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

How does that even make sense? The data was released a few days ago, and people will sporadically update that list as is common with wikipedia. --Criticalthinker 02:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• This article is not specifically about the CSA or MSA, but about Metro Detroit. As I have previously mentioned, there is not CSA or MSA called "metro Detroit" and so the CSA or MSA population is not necessarily definitive for this article. Cmadler 15:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• • If that is the case, either, don't put in populations in, at all, or put in the most recent estimates. You can't say that populations aren't important, and then try to bar the most recent estimates. The 2006 estimates are available, and thus need to be used, or nothing be added in terms of populations, at all. --Criticalthinker 03:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Population figures and any other information on this encyclopedia should be updated as soon as someone finds out that the latest information is available and can cite it. I thought that was the whole point of Wikipedia...

A reminder: no one is considered the owner or master of a Wikipedia article and cannot keep other people from editing. Nor should they try. Improvements to articles come through consensus resulting from bold updates by all. Why would we want to refrain from sharing with readers the most recent data? Wangry 04:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Size of the MSA and CSA

For the physical size of the metro in the infox box someone needs to make a destinction between MSA and CSA. I'm not sure how this pages for metros usually go (i.e. defining MSA or CSA), but I notice they choose one or the other. The size of the MSA and CSA needed to be stated at the beginning, and we need to decided which we're talking about for the infobox. --Criticalthinker 08:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Per the discussions above, this article is not necessarily about the MSA or CSA, but about the area popularly called "Metro Detroit"; therefore the infobox should reflect that area, and neither the MSA nor the CSA. Cmadler 13:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The general practice for US metro area articles seems to be to use the MSA definition in the infobox (if present). --Polaron | Talk 13:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

As the infobox was labeled "Detroit-Warren-Flint", which is the CSA, that is the information that I put to correspond with it. I also added in the actual article the size of both the MSA and CSA in their beginning paragraphs. I removed the MSA "size" from the infobox as everything was beginning to clash. --Criticalthinker 09:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Detroit–Warren–Livonia MSA

Whoever made the map in the infobox needs to change it to reflect the 6-county Detroit–Warren–Livonia MSA. Currently, the maps shows the Detroit-Warren-Flint CSA. --Criticalthinker 05:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal proposals

Here are some phrases that I think should be removed from this article:

1. "The area has some of the nation's finest hotels, casinos, performance centers, stadiums, convention centers, theaters, museums, libraries, schools, parks, beaches, and infrastructure to support economic growth." Unsourced and dubious, reads like a Froder's guide, not an encyclopedia. Propose to remove entire sentence - the rest of the paragraph stands fine on its own without it.

2. "For a nearby vacation, Metro Detroit residents will visit Michigan's Thumb, and towns such as Port Huron, Lexington, Caseville, and Port Austin. Some may even travel to Northern Michigan for summer and winter activities." Unsourced and really just speculation. Propose to remove entire sentence.

3. "313 has assumed special status as many teenage and young adult Detroiters say that they are from "The 3-1-3" to assert that they are "truly" from Detroit, but this is not common among those who are older than typical rap fans." Unsourced and trivial. Almost any teenager can say they're from whatever area code they happen to live in and think it's cool and gives them special status. Propose to remove.

Thoughts? Tan | 39 00:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

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Metro Detroit Portal

How about starting a Metro Detroit Portal?Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 16:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Unforgiven24 sandbox is starting a Metro Detroit Portal.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

POV tag

I've added a POV tag because the article is shamelessly selling the Detroit metro economy, rather than describing it neutrally. If you didn't know better you could get the idea that Detroit is one of the very richest, fastest growing, least economically troubled places on the planet. I removed the most egregiously misleading comments praising the auto industry, but I don't have the time or the knowledge to do the general overhaul that is needed. Luwilt (talk) 22:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

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Why would it be important to mention that if you count everything in a 300-mile radius to Detroit, you end up with a population of 46 million people? That obviously includes Chicago, though that's not mentioned in the article. It seems vaguely misleading and somewhat nonsensical to include that information (and then also not mention Chicago). Vermiculite (talk) 05:07, 6 December 2009 (UTC)