Talk:Menkyo

Menkyo kaiden discussion

I'd like to see an article on the Menkyo system in general. -Toptomcat 02:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

As would I.Joe routt 04:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Menkyo is redirected here. This article should probably be moved there and rearranged to cover the menkyo system in general, including the menkyo kaiden. // habj (talk) 10:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and I'm moving it there and re-organizing the article and adding more info. smIsle (talk) 21:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kanji

The kanji for "menkyo" is 免許.

The kanji for "kaiden" is 皆伝.

For those without access to a kanji dictionary, a simple search for the term on this new fangled thing called "The Internet" will confirm this. Repeated replacement of the proper kanji with a nonsense unholy conjugation of hirigana and katakana that is not even phonetically close proves unhelpful at best. TheDoctorX (talk) 09:14, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Menkyo kaiden (免許皆伝) actual meaning

It looks like someone just copy pasted the definition from a Japanese-English dictionary to here, and didn't do a proper translation. The actual meaning is quite the opposite from "initiation". The "kai" in kaiden is the same kanji that means "all", and the same kanji used in "minna" meaning "everyone". That's important, because that's the defining state for this "menkyo" or license to be given.

If you look the meaning of 皆伝 up in an actual Japanese dictionary like the Daijisen, you get the actual meaning: 芸能・武術などの道で、師からその流派の奥義をすべて教えられること (the state where a master has taught (a student) ALL the ougi of that art). You can shorten that to "complete transmission". At this point, it should already be obvious that a menkyo kaiden is no initiation, but instead a graduation, having received all possible knowledge of that particular school from the master.

In fact, there's a separate entry for "menkyo kaiden" in actual Japanese dictionaries. I will quote the Daijisen again: 芸道・武道などで、師匠が弟子にその道の奥義を残らず伝授すること. That line literally says: "In the performing/craft arts and the martial arts, (the situation or state) where the master has, without leaving any ougi out, taught everything to the disciple". This is no initiation. It's the end of the road and the beginning of one's own path; it is a graduation. 118.13.135.209 (talk) 01:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)