Talk:Meat pie (Australia and New Zealand)/Archive 1

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Cleanup or merge or delete? (question closed)

There are many major problems with this article. Is a "sound bite" delivered to the media by a polititian a firm basis for a wikipedia article about an item of Australian cuisine?

Furthermore the article seems to be a collection of minor commercial trivia about culinary history and contemporary food manufacturers.

Perhaps worse of all there's the statistic that "Australians have the world's largest consumption with an average of 12 meat pies per year". Now, 12 meat pies a year is very few pies. The consumption of sushi is probably higher than that.

And it seems likely that if such a thing as Australian Meat Pies can be meaningfully delineated in a world where pies are routinely consumed in a number of countries, well then Australians will surely have the highest consumption of them. I guess I am trying to say that there's a problem with the title. Australian Meat Pies are simply Meat Pies and nothing more. Overall the Pie and Pot pie articles seem to cover the essense of what this article is trying to say. There is also a separate Four'N Twenty Pie article so I believe something needs to be merged.

I agree that - perhaps less so today than in the past - commercially bought meat pies are common takeaway food in Australia and at the football and there is a cultural significance attached to that, however this muddled article does not make the point well, and this is already described in the Pie article. It is almost like having an article named Australian Tennis Rackets. MinorEdit 23:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with you, the "Australian meat pie" is like the English Pork Pie, the American Hamburger - It does not imply that the Meat Pie is not eaten else where nor have a history in other parts of the world at various times in history. What is suggests is that in Australia the Meat Pie has a certain cultural significance – similar to the American Hamburger/English Pork Pie for example.

For instance, an article titled the American Hamburger would be feasible, however hamburgers originate in Europe and McDaonalds and Burger King ensure the global distribution to millions daily. However, there is still an undeniable cultural relationship between American Culture and Hamburgers. The same can be said to apply for the Meat Pie, while it is eaten in New Zealand Ireland and offcourse Britain it does not have the same cultural relationship as it does with Australian culture. Foe example, Australian Rules Football and Australian Rugby League sports venues are sponsored by and advertise For-n-Twenty Pies all over the stadiums – such is not the case in venues of British Sporting grounds. There is a question of cultural relativity here.

Harry De Wheeles (which I am surprised is not listed) is very famous with international visitors, particularly Americans and many consider it to be the most renowned individual Meat Pie store in the world. For example, since the Second World War no US GI or Sailor visits Sydney without a trip to Woolloomooloo for one of Harry’s Pies.

IMHO: I agree the page is a little messy in some areas, however, I strongly disagree that there is not a need for an individual Australian Meat Pie page.

I think the article needs a cleanup, but I don't think it should be removed. The 'early history of the pie' section could be erased altogether, or changed to a history of pies in Australia, seeing as the article itself is supposed to be about Australian pies, not just pies, for which there is already a separate article.

I think a cleanup of both articles is a better idea, considering that the [[Four'N Twenty Pie |Four'N Twenty]] company is an iconic Autsrlalian brandname, even outside Victoria. As someone points out elsewhere in this discussion, the Meat Pie is the Australian food, and the major brands producing it are, on our own little island as important as the Cola and Hamburger brands are in the US. Should we merge Pepsi and Coca-Cola into the Cola article?

As for the idea of merging the article with Pot pie, the food described bears little or no reselmblance to an Australian meat pie, which has a flakey top but a shortcrust or flatbread style dough used to form the body of the pie. Also the traditional Australian Pie has a filling of meat and gravy, rather than a stew. Alex Law 05:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Bleeding 'eck! OK, this is getting silly. The ie Floater is not an Australian food, it is eaten by those funny people in South Australia (that being wit, or something halfway like it). Australia is a big place, and Pie Floaters are a regional food, enjoyed almost exclusively by the million or so people of Adelaide (and they are most welcome to them, ICK!). It doesn't belong in the main article. Most Australians outside Adelaide/SA have never had the misfortune of seeing a Pie Floater, and many have never heard of them. Alex Law 05:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Written before realising the merge tags had been removed: I also disagree strongly with a merge. The Australian/NZ meat pie is an iconic product with a long history. It is comparable to fish and chips and the Cornish pasty in the UK, and to the hamburger and hot dog in the USA. There are now Australian companies marketing Australian/NZ meat pies in the UK (Jumbuck's) and USA (Down Under Bakery) as a distinctive type of meat pie.

Have a look at the category Sandwiches. There are dozens of articles on Wikipedia about different national varieties of sandwiches, because although they are similar foods, they still have meaningful differences, and carry cultural significance. To collapse them all into a single article would be wrong, and this is an exact parallel.

I've linked this article to the large article on Harry's Cafe de Wheels (please note, anonymous contributor above, who mentioned them under another name). Rather than merging Four'N Twenty Pie into this article I'd prefer to move it to Four'N Twenty, and create new articles on other pie companies like Jumbucks' and Down Under Bakery. The Aussie pie isn't dying at all. It's moving into new markets. Rubywine (talk) 19:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the merge tags, The user seems to be some sort of merge fetishist [1]. Agnte 21:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Older discussion on merge (question closed)

Why does this have an entry? Australian meat pies aren't any different from those found in similar Anglo countries like the UK and NZ. And if it's alledged that they are, shouldn't the reasons for this be mentioned? matturn 10:01, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with above. The page seems mainly a small collection of trivia, none of which seems especially relevant. Given that there is also the Four'N Twenty Pie page, this one seems especially redundant. MinorEdit June 28, 2005 09:20 (UTC)

Naturally my following comments need to be judged in view of the fact that I created this article. I concede the following points: 1) Having both this article and the Four'N Twenty page is not justifiable. 2) The Australian meat pie is probably not substantially physically different to meat pies from other countries. 3) The article could be improved.

However, I believe that the Australian meat pie is special in the iconic status that it has within the Australian culture and history and therefore think it does deserve its own page as it is not really about the physical meat pie in of itself, these comments show that I have clearly failed to convey this in the article :) --pflodo June 28, 2005 14:01 (UTC)

Sounds good - add it in! Maybe some sort of merger with the Four'N Twenty Pie page is needed too. MinorEdit June 30, 2005 02:24 (UTC)

I disagree, the meat pie has become known as Australia's national dish, thus the Australian Meat Pie is culturaly specific to Australia. I think it is good that there exists a wiki page on the Aussie Pie!

Thing is, the same could be said of New Zealand.

Agreed, meat pies with the same ingredients are available at every service station and dairy in New Zealand. Also, if 12 pies per capita per year for Australia is an accurate statistic, New Zealand's consumption is likely higher. Still, it's not the kind of thing to get its own Wikipedia entry. Osmodius 01:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Aside: it is true - NZ's figure is higher and stands at 15 per person per year.--JNZ (talk) 11:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

This talk page is not a forum.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Rate of meat pie eating 12 meat pies per year doesn't sound like that amazing of a rate of consumption to me. That's around one meat pie a month. If they love it so much, wouldn't they eat one at least every week or so? Or perhaps there are some Australians who adore meat pies and eat them all the time, and others who hate them, and the statistics are deceiving as a result... Far as I know, the meat pie is to sport in [Australia] what the hotdog is to sport in the USA. Also the average corner shop/cafe/milk bar/cafeteria/tuck shop in [Australia] will have meat pies, pasties and sausage rolls for sale Martin Rudat(T|@|C) 15:13, 21 September 2005 (UTC) This statistic struck me as odd also. I don't see how it could be an accurate statistic if the rest of the article is correct. The number should be much higher for this food to be considered "iconic". Statistics of American hot dog consumption typically range from 60-70 hot dogs per year. Other statistics claim about 50 slices of pizza yearly. The only explanation I can think of, other than meat pies being less popular than implied, is that they're typically consumed only during certain months of the year. But this isn't mentioned in the article. Chachilongbow 01:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC) It's easy to eat 3-5 hotdogs in one sitting, it's easy to eat 10 slices of pizza one sitting...it's not so easy to eat to >1 meat pie in one sitting. You're comparing a slice of pizza to a meat pie, that's just silly. It makes more sense to compare eating a whole large pizza to a meat pie. Also, it seems silly to only look at those statistics in isolation. There may be 20% of the population that never eats meat pies, and that lowers the average. But there may be a large amount of the population that eats 20 a year. It's like saying "butter chicken isnt an indian food because 50% of indians are vegetarians"...yeah so what? Apples&Manzanas (talk) 20:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Low nutritional Value

This cannot be applied to all Aussie meat pies and thus should be altered to Nutritional Value - the word Low. The study involved a select group of frozen pies and thus not all fresh meat pies can be accounted for. For example, Harry De Wheels Pies are one of the best known Aussie Pie makers and I m sure their pies cannot be assumed to be of Low Nutritional Value.

Just because it's a well known pie maker and the pies are of good quality and taste good doesn't mean the nutritional value is high. Pie crusts are generally made from refined white flour (lacking in fibre) and contain a large amount of saturated fat. I doubt Harry's are any different, even if the cuts of meat used are good ones. Pies, just like most other forms of fast food, are of fairly low nutritional value. I think it is a fair generalisation to make, unless you can provide specific evidence to the contrary.

Average number of pies consumed yearly

"Australians consume an average of 12 meat pies per year"

Where did this figure come from? Twelve is an awfully low number of pies, both for Australians as a whole and as individuals. --Scottie theNerd 11:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, even with The Age reference, 12 still seems to be an awfully low number. Is the survey an approximation or does it also factor in the section of the population that don't eat meat pies at all? --Scottie theNerd 05:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If the phrase is "Australians eat...", then you'd think it would have been a survey of all Australians, of whom there would be a proportion who do not eat meat pies at all or only rarely, bringing the number down. It isn't a high number but check out any large food court at lunchtime, or scan of a strip of takeaway stores and clearly pies are in for a lot of competition. Asa01 19:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Conversely, I could buy two 8-pie packs and break the average in two weeks :) --Scottie theNerd 03:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Except you are just one person in 15 Million. Averages arent calculated like that; you wouldn't be changing anything. Asa01 09:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I know. I'm joking. --Scottie theNerd 16:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You will at least have fun eating the pies. Asa01 19:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There are huge cultural areas within Australia who would never eat a meat pie. Try finding a Halal meat pie. Try finding one in Chinatown in any of our capital cities. IMHO, Sushi and Kebabs are becoming more common-place fast food (hey, if you order right - they are even healthy). I think that is why the average is only 12 pies per year, many WASP-type "ocker-ozzies" (can you say "flanny-wearing bogan?) probably eat one a day, monday-friday, for six months of the year. 11:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that. The point is my observation that for what is considered to be a national food, consumption per person seems rather low on average. No further comments. --Scottie theNerd 14:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It is not so strange. As per the National dish article, "The concept is highly informal and vague, and in many, if not most cases the relationship between a given territory or people and certain typical foods is ambiguous", and they often serve as stereotypes. Like, just how much appelstrudel do Austrians really eat? Asa01 20:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Similar phenomena are observed on this side of the Tasman. I lived in Auckland for 15 years and with each passing year I think pies are becoming rarer as a favourite among Auckland's people. Just like Australian metros sushi, gourmet sandwiches, wraps, and kebabs seem to be displacing them in significance. But then down here in Rangiora people still treat pies as a necessity item and I think most residents here would break the Australian national average consumption by hundreds of times. Maybe it is still a national icon as a dish closely identified as "Australian" but most people would not eat it frequently? --JNZ 00:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Pot Pie

This page contradicts the info in the pot pie article, which says that a pot pie is 'in contrast' to an Australian meat pie. If a pot pie is one baked in a foil pie 'pot' then most Australian meat pies do not match this description as they are baked in metal pie trays and then turned out when done, not served in a foil 'pot'.

Morgan Leigh 12:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Most Popular in Qld and the world

In Queensland, Yatala Pies is one of the most successful independent direct meat pie retailers in the world (see Australian Bureau of Statistics) and bakes on average over 2,000 pies and pastries per day, more in peak times.

I hardly think so. I live in brisbane, and consider myself to be a modest meat pie consumer and have never heard of a Yatala pie. Whats more, im just doing a case study on Vili's meat pies and They produce 48,000 units of standard meat pies daily, 12,000 units of Gourmet pies daily and 20 000 Pasties daily (Source: Consumer Behaviour: Implications for Marketing Strategy - "Couldnt you Go a Vili's" Case Study 3.1). I am removing this line because it is simply innacurate in both claims. Timmah01 07:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

New Zealand and Meat Pies

Over here meat pies are equally popular. Should NZ perspectives be added to this article as well??--JNZ 00:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah wtf is an 'Australian' meat pie ?? A meat pie is a meat pie. And these pies can be brought practically everywhere all over New Zealand too. 212.42.10.194 (talk) 09:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Although this article is titled Australia AND New Zealand pies,it is all about Australian pies. In particular, it makes a great deal of fuss about Mrs. Mac's (ghastly) Jesters (not much better) and Georgie Pies (surely the worst pies on the planet). Meanwhile internationally popular pies such as Dad's Pies are left out. It would be easy to add something about Big Ben Pies or Irvine (New Zealand) but to be honest they aren't much better than Mrs. Mac's. Of course most of the best NZ pies are prepared in individual pie shops or in very small bakeries that only supply a few dairies so it would be impossible to list even a representative sample.OrewaTel (talk) 04:14, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

New Zealand and Meat Pies - TITLE

someone has changed the opening line to describe the item in question as New Zealand Meat Pies. As the article claims, identical foodstuff described in the article is simiarly popular there. The name "Australian Meat Pies" seems to have been invented in wikipedia - in reality they are named and spoken of only as "meat pies" or "pies". Maybe if the name has to change "Australasian" meat pies is good as any? Format (talk) 22:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Harry's Cafe de Wheels

What exactly did Sweeney Todd learn while he was Australia? A pie with peas and gravy at Harry's.

Since it has its own article and is probably the best-known place for tourists in Sydney to get a meat pie, should Harry's Cafe de Wheels be mentioned? There is a long section on the commercial production of them but I couldn't think where to put such a reference outside of the "popular culture" section. --Stomme (talk) 12:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

To the anonymous editor who repeatedly deleted NZ contexts from the article

I would politely ask you to give a very good justification as to the reason you believe NZ contexts should be deleted from meat pies. The meat pies in NZ is identical to Australian one, and carries as much connotation to NZ food as to Australian food. Indeed, expat Australian and NZ owners of shops selling meat pies in countries without traditions of eating this type of meat pies will say they sell "Australian/NZ Style meat pies" eg in North America and the UK. Please reconsider twice before moving to delete the NZ contexts. --JNZ (talk) 06:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

As an English migrant to Australia I have eaten almost identical meat pies all my life and am always amused by Aussies imagining that their pies are unique. Pie n chips and a can of soup was a good quick meal eaten by millions of Pommies during the post War years up until fairly recently. Every bakery and most fish and chip shops would offer a larger oblong pie or a smaller round pie. There is a myth that the only meat pies commonly eaten in the UK are pork pies. Not so, pork pies are not eaten 'casually', they are normally taken home, sliced and eaten as part of a sit down meal, often with salad. For casual eating on the way home from the pub or as a lunchtime snack the meat pies which have been eaten in huge quantities in the UK since medieval times are basically identical to the Aus / NZ variety:

"Simple Simon met a pieman going to the fair..." nuff said. --MichaelGG (talk) 11:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree. Seems to have been discussed a bit before. I suspect there are plenty around who are really keen that this article remains. Format (talk) 18:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know MichaelGG, but NZ-based David Burton (who is a respected food journalist and historian worldwide) has written a lengthy section in his recently revised version of New Zealand Food and Cookery (David Bateman, Auckland, 2009) attempting to refute your claim. I'm not sure if Burton had your claim in mind when he wrote that section. --JNZ (talk) 08:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Change of page title to AustralASIAN

Surely this entry should be called at the least Australasian Meat pie, not Australian meat pie. Neither of these two countries invented this form of pie and arguably it holds equal significance in both countries. There really is no justification for calling it an australian meat pie. The entry it self details the popularity of the meat pie in New Zealand. Aenesidemos (talk) 04:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The item of this article exists in, and originated in, the UK. That has an article, named steak pie. I do not see why a common international food item needs multiple articles about it that describe the same ingredients, preparation, etc, with the only difference being a collection of local news media references and description of some local producers in the "Australian" article. Somewhat arbitrarily, New Zealand is included here. Presumably NZ was included here rather than the steak pie article for geographical reasons? Hot dog is seen my many as a US foodstuff, but it has just one article (as it is one foodstuff), and that article has a large specific section on the US. Why not merge all this into the generic, non-country specific steak pie article? No one ever says "Australian" meat pie in Australia, they are just called pies or meat pies, so that is just a made-up title. Format (talk) 18:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)