Talk:Macedonian Australians

People on the list

Regarding certain people listed on the article page who are frequently removed and readded by reverts:

Chris Joannou - I've found no solid evidence of him being either Greek or Slavomacedonian, so it'll be best to simply say he's Australian and leave it at that.

Tom Petsinis - I have found several pages on Google which suggest that he is actually Greek Macedonian: [1], [2], [3]. He was born in Greek Macedonia, can speak both languages, but identifies himself as Greek according to the third source (a quote from himself).

Arch Tambakis - Can't find anything about him.

Paul Delianis - Likewise.

Peter Daicos - He was picked for the Greek AFL Team of the Century, which would imply some sort of Greek heritage. Also appears frequently in interviews for the Neos Kosmos English Edition based on his Greek heritage [4]

Bobby Despotovski - He is Serbian: [5], [6], [7], [8].

Stan Lazaridis - His parents hail from Greek Macedonia [9], [10]. See also WP:MWNB#Stan_Lazaridis and Talk:Stan_Lazaridis for further discussion.

Alex Marcou - No sources supporting Slavomacedonian heritage. -- Greekfire 06:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Len Pascoe - Full name Leonard Stephen Pascoe Born February 13, 1950, Bridgetown North, Western Australia Current age 56 years 176 days Major teams Australia, New South Wales Also known as changed name from Leonard Stephen Durtanovich Batting style Right-hand bat Bowling style Right-arm fast

I'm quite sure that is of Croatian Origin from the Dalmatia region —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.49.232.252 (talk • contribs) 15:28, August 8, 2006

Querry

This article needs disambiguations (there are thousands of Greeks who also call themselves Macedonian and have demostrated as such). There is no mention of 'Slav Macedonians', that is the appelation under which they demonstrated and organised themselves after WWII. Other points also. So I suggest, {{fact}} and/or {{totallydisputed}} and/or {{POV}}. I am not, dear friends and fellow editors, challenging the validity of this article to appear or the fact that there are thousands of Australians who refer to themselves as 'Macedonian' in the sense of 'not Greek'. Politis 12:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

clarification

The article says, "Macedonians have been arriving in Australia since the late 1880s". I have seen no evidence that the people arriving from Balkans referred to themselves (not by others) as 'Macedonian' in an ethnic sense. To the best of my knowledge, this only occurs after WWII. Also, it would seem that only Greek citizens from Greek Macedonia called themselves 'Macedonians' or more often 'Slav Macedonians' - at least in the early stages. Politis 16:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

There are some (wilfull?) distortions in the article. For instance, in 1994, it was agreed to abolish any ethnicity associated with club names. Therefore, no football team bears the name of its ethnic origin or its flag. Politis 11:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am a Macedonian in Australia....never have I heard a Macedonian refer to themselves as slav Macedonian. Nor have I heard anyone from that part of the world call us Slav Macedonian, except for Greeks when they are arguing there propaganda. There is only one Macedonia, a Macedonia for the Macedonians......I love hearing this propagandanistic nonsense, because Greeks try so hard to make others belive in it, but it is quite obvious that people and Countries are strating to see through these obvious lies........MAKEDONIJA ZA MAKEDONCITE....

Sorry my friend but try as hard as you want, you can not change history. I have visited all the ancient sites in Macedonia and have only found GREEK writing in every instance on all the stones, the tablets and every temple in site. To say that there is and has only ever been one Macedonia and that is the one currently claimed by slav speaking people is ridiculous. You have just been lucky to settle in an area which has had such a long HELLENISTIC history but to try and claim genetics from the original GREEK SPEAKING Macedonians is theft. Why don't you just accept the fact that you are from slav origin the sooner you do this the the more you will belong. My family came here in 1948 from Macedonia in Greece and when asked their origins in the census they claimed they were Macedonian which of course they were. At that stage there was no need to differentiate because slav Macedonia did not exist it was Yugoslavia........HELLENUS FOR EVER —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.24.166 (talk) 13:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In addition to this, the Macedonians of Alexanders times settled in many parts of the then known world including Egypt. It is strange that after 2500 years, there are people descendant from these Macedonians in Alexandria and of course they speak Greek as well as Arabic, French, etc. There is not even a sniff of Slavic in their dialect so if they spoke the language you Slavs claim they did, why has this not survived till today as the Greek has. There are also areas in Afganistan that have remnants from the same period, they also speak Greek and sing songs handed down generations which are also Greek. Once again, no sniff of Slavic. Identity theft is not a good solution to your problems, the sooner you accept that you are from a Bulgarian origin, the better it would be for everybody. Maybe you should accept the name Southern Slavia and build on that..........HELLENUS FOR EVER —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.26.120 (talk) 12:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Can we have a bit more civility here please?

I am noticing a few edit wars on this site, from all sides with some pretty dumb nationalism. I have no ancestral roots to either Greece or Macedonia and I am happy to arbitrate if you want a neutral observer. I am equally biased against everybody! Kransky (talk) 13:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I've already said what I wanted to say in the section above, which I wrote about a year ago, and no-one has seen fit to argue any of those points so it's only reasonable that they be reflected in the article, unless that anon or anyone else wants to find some sources to prove otherwise. Greekfire (talk) 10:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

"Not to be confused with..."

The portion which states "not to be confused with Macedonian Greek Canadians" is completely out of place since there is NO "Macedonian Greek Canadian" article and honestly how dumb can you be to confuse an ethnic and subgroup? Maktruth (talk) 07:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, "the title "ethnic Macedonian" should not be confused with "Greek Macedonian", referring to Greeks who come from the province of Macedonia in northern Greece."

This is subtle propaganda since there is no source for the statement and "Greek Macedonian" could in fact mean "ethnic Macedonian from/in Greece" believe it or not. Maktruth (talk) 07:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The only subtle propaganda here is your suggestion that "Macedonian" can only have one meaning; yours. As for the "ethnic Macedonian from/in Greece" meaning, it's already covered in the article, ffs. You will be reverted in due course. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops, I stated Macedonian could mean many things [ie Greek Macedonian can mean Macedonian (ethnic) in Greece or Greek in Macedonia]... what I am stating is "Macedonian Greek Canadian" can mean many things 1) a Canadian who is 1/2 Greek and 1/2 Macedonian (ethnic) 2) a Canadian who has ethnic Macedonian (from Greek Macedonia) descent etc... Maktruth (talk) 07:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I also stated there is no "Macedonian Greek Canadian" article, which is true! So how are any of my claims propaganda? Maktruth (talk) 07:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

All I simply stated was to create a "Macedonian Greek Canadian" article or to create a subsection in "Greek Canadian" to include "Macedonian Greeks" therefore "Macedonian Greek Canadian" can revert there to better clarify things. Maktruth (talk) 07:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

We're talking about Aussies here, not Canucks. Pull yourself together. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops, its the same conversation over 3 articles "Aussie" "Canadian" and "American." So what I say here always applies to the other two and vise versa. Maktruth (talk) 07:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, which is why FP's compromise solution will stay. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the dablink, which is the result of a consensus at Talk:Macedonian Canadians supported by users such as User:Future Perfect at Sunrise and User:BalkanFever who are hardly amenable to the Greek position on the Macedonian issue. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 10:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't care either way here, but 3rdAlcove removed it as "excessive". BalkanFever 12:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how. There are more self-identifying Macedonians in Australia of the Greek persuasion than not. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

^ lol. Köbra ^Könverse 12:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

What's so funny? According to this article there are 83,978 "ethnic Macedonians" in Australia, and according to Greek Australians 365,147 ethnic Greeks, i.e. the former (excuse the pun) group is 23% the size of the latter. That also happens to be, roughly, the percentage of the Greek population that lives in Macedonia. So the numbers of "ethnic Macedonians" and Greek Macedonians in Australia should be fairly even. But we know that the Macedonians form a disproportionately higher percentage of the Greeks in Australia than those in Greece, so their number must be somewhat higher. The point is that there is group of Macedonians in Australia that is just as large, if not larger, than the subject of this article. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 14:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually of the entire population in Australia only 109,989 were born in Greece, (regardless of ethnicity). And 23% of that is 25,297 people minus the 2,919 people who claim macedonian ancestry and were born in greece (who presumably are from greek macedonia) , you arrive at 22,378 people. Taking into regard chain migration the Greek Macedonians in australia could be as low as 10,000 people. There is a big difference 10,000 vs. 45,000 (by birthplace)[11]. Have you forgotten your Greek Cypriot and Greek Egyptian brothers, they cannot also claim to be Macedonians. Only 29.1 of people with Greek Ancesty were born in Greece. PMK1 (talk) 13:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A good tidy up needed

This article could do with a fix: duplicated information, spelling mistakes, punctuation mistakes, words used incorrectly, lists with no context etc. Kransky (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• I believe the lists of churches and cultural organisations should be removed as per WP:NOTDIRECTORY --Matilda ^talk 10:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Cut and pasted from my talk page below

Macedonian Australians

hi kransky, you have been editing the article Macedonian Australians recently. I was curious as to see what you would like on the page, so that i can cooperatively restructure it as you indicated on the talk page? any comments? PMK1 (talk) 02:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Well i guess it isn't that notable. As for many of the 2001 statistics this source [12] contains very good information ie. Birthplace, ancestry, language on groups of people such as Aegean Macedonians which i haven't seen from the 2006 census. I have searched the www.abs.gov.au website but for the 2006 data i have seen such a comprehensive report issued yet? if you have one could you please let me know. Here is another good source [13] but it uses 2001 data as well. The Book "Macedonians in Australia" by Peter Hill is a good source and i have used it in the book, as you would have seen in the references. If i could find information i will put more info in the Media/Newspapers section. Currently it is one of the more extensive ethnic groups in Australia, only Italian Australians and Chinese Australians would be better articles. These images [14], [15], [16] would be good to upload as well. What are your comments? PMK1 (talk) 07:53, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

2006 ABS data, including maps and charts, can be generated here [[17]]. Like my Macedonians in Sydney map? (which I generated using some other GIS software...) Kransky (talk) 07:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have been looking for one of them for a long time. Where did you make it? Is it possible to have Macedonian language speakers as well? (i believe it shows the true picture of macedonians 1st and 2nd generation). I have looked at the link you have showed me, but i didnt come across a country by country, or ancestry by ancestry analysis like this source [18]. If there is information could you please send me the link and i will post it. PMK1 (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

For a list of country of birth, see the spreadsheet linked here. I have added this link in many Australian ethnicity articles. Unfortunately, you cannot do maps by country of birth on the ABS website (you can do ancestry, but only by continent). I have my own GIS software and data files that allows me to do this. Kransky (talk) 11:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

OK - I have created and uploaded maps of Macedonian speakers in Sydney, Wollongong, Melbourne and Perth. Check out my contribution page. This took me 30 minutes - if I had more time I would have removed the "other" category that accidentally got included in the legend, and perhaps dollied it up a bit more, but I think it shows what can be done. Kransky (talk) 11:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, i thought you couldn't do those maps on the ABS. They are very good, a big thankyou for making them. I was planning on splitting the history- section into subsections and each will focus on a certain region, eg. Sydney, Illawarra, Newcastle, Melbourne etc. and then ill fit in a map with the relevant region, But once again the maps are very good :). oh, and give us your feedback. PMK1 (talk) 21:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

hey kransky you know the map you just removed off macedonian australian do you have anymore like that? With that sort of colour and layout. And which program do i need to use to build the maps you made? PMK1 (talk) 12:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

software is called Mapitude, loaded with ABS data. I have created maps for Melb, Syd and the Gong - the one I removed I thought was too cluttered as the others. Kransky (talk) 12:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

too cluttered? Perosnally it was my favorite, the yellow box ones look way to user made. Where did you get the actual data to upload into the program? Whats the link? PMK1 (talk) 22:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid the software and data is not freely available. I will make some other maps, see what is the best combination of colours and elements, and then make several pics. You can help me select what is best. Kransky (talk) 10:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, you are very dedicated. I will fully cooperate. PMK1 (talk) 12:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I have done a dot density map for the pages dealing with Italian, Lebanese, Vietnamese, Japanese and Korean Australians. Pls see the pages and pass comments. Kransky (talk) 13:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes i have had a look at the map dot density. You have obvioulsy put in a lot of effort. Personally I prefer maps which deal by areas such as the various macedonian ones you made. By favorite would have to be the contrasting colours and the absence of lined divisions as in the other Macedonian maps makes this one the best. Would i be able to put in a request for similar maps to the one i already posted. Also which ones are the easiest to make? But once again good work, also when dealing with certain ethnic groups language groups would be more appropriate eg. greeks and italians. Please keep up the good work. PMK1 (talk) 11:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for those kind words. Admitedly I chose the dot density maps because they are easier to produce - just a quirk of the software. However a dot density map has the advantage of not just identifing geographic clusters (like a colour themed map), but a reader can get a better idea of the total size of a city - it is easier to count dots than count count variably shaded polygons. As for language - you would get variable results - some ethnic groups speak many langauges (Iranian), some languages are spoken by many ethnic groups (Arabic, English), and some ethnic groups either retain or loose their langauge competencies. Kransky (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Well my hesitation would be that the dot maps look a bit amatuerish. And they only show a dot. As with the ethnic/language groups i completely agree with you. Groups like Serbs for eaxample are often from Bosnia or Croatia, Arabs from lebanon, syria, iraq, egypt, croats from bosnia, germans from austria, switzerland, eastern europe, and the most prominent, chinese people, hongkong, taiwan, vietnam, malaysia,singapore. For these groups language would be the more appropriate identifier. Would i be able to put in a reuqest for a wollongong, perth and melbourne language map based on the map i posted earlier. Thanx, no problem (about the kind words). PMK1 (talk) 02:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sydney areas where Chinese (red), Vientamese (yellow), Arabic (dark green), Greek (light blue), Turkish (brown), Serbian (light green) and Korean (pink) are predominantly spoken

Dot density maps are commonly used by professionals (hence the facility on my GIS software to create them!). The problem with deliniating by language is ethnic groups that have been in Australia longer are more likely to use English - German Australians would be underrepresented, while Somali Australians would be overreprsented. In the meantime, you might be interested in this map I just made. 09:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally i like the map. What scale did you use to show the various ethnic groups? 5%, 10%? But you are right those who have been here longer the 2nd generation lose the mother language, but then we ask ourselves are they really germans or australians? I would be more inclined for the latter. I like the idea of the map though showing the spread rather than just dots. But individual maps like that would be good showing the districts which recorded info not just dots, also is it possible to make a scale eg. DARK BLUe - 15%+, blue - 10%+, light blue - 5%+? Just with the european ethnic groups personally 2001 data would be better, and for asian groups 2006. The only reason is that there were more european speakers in 2001 and more asian speakers in 2006, thus showing more detail on the maps.? But maps like the one you made, if scaled could be very useful. PMK1 (talk) 11:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to give mapping a bit of a break - too addictive. The dot maps and the thematic maps are totally different - one covers country of birth, the other language. I would not mix data from different years. Kransky (talk) 13:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Lol, that is alrite. if you need help just ask. Hey one quesiton what is you opinion on the contributions that i have added to Macedonian Australians?

Generally quite interesting!Kransky (talk) 10:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Macedonian Iskra.gif

The image Image:Macedonian Iskra.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• Image:Slsc.png
• Image:Magic Logo.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --11:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Sources

Does anyone know what the sources for all of the information in the state-by-state section of the history part of the article are? It's a massively detailed section with very little by way of references. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Anyone have any ideas? It would be a shame if we had to start deleting the unsourced material, but it needs to be verified. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Cordless Larry, i can assure you that the information is accurate. Much information is from the "Macedonians in Australia" book by Peter Hill 1989. That is why it is down the bottom in the references section. The demographics data is from the Australian Beuareua (sorry about the spelling) of Statistics and is accurate. Much of the 1990s + information is from macedonian media and macedonian community sources since then. If you need any clarification see me, i have written the article from scratch. Feel free to speak to me just dont delete anything. PMK1 (talk) 10:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the situation. I don't doubt that the material is accurate, but the problem is that Wikipedia policy, in the form of WP:Verifiability, states: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true". I'm not going to remove the information immediately, but the issue does need addressing at some point. The fact that the Peter Hill book is listed in the references doesn't really cut it because, as you point out, the material is based on several sources and, as it stands, it's impossible to tell which source supports each part of the material. Would it be possible for you to add proper citations to the material? It wouldn't have to be done all at once, but perhaps you could take a section-by-section approach over the course of several weeks? If you use citation templates and name each reference, it's just a case of adding a short tag with the citation name to each subsequent reference. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:02, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I notice that no action has been taken to address this situation. Since no reply has been posted here either, I will start to remove the unsourced information at the end of next week. If progress has been made by then, I will delay the removal of material so as not to disrupt the addition of sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections, I will start removing unsourced material tomorrow. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I have removed most of the unsourced material. If anyone wishes to restore it, with the addition of references, please see this revision of the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

CL, you could have at least messaged me about this before you started deleting information which was correct. Please refrain from such moves again, because you believe it not to be true. Please tell what is incorrect in the text. As an outsider you should be learning here and not teaching. Best wishes. PMK1 (talk) 09:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

As explained above, the standard for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. I am not suggesting that the material is false but rather that it is not possible from reading it to verify whether it is true because no citations are given. Sorry for not informing you personally but it is difficult to inform all individual contributors to an article and, as you can see, I gave plenty of notice here. I don't understand your comment about me being an outsider. Anyone is entitled to edit Wikipedia articles. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes but i was disconnected from the internet for a while there. I am sure that i can properly reference the text. Just please dont revert me. PMK1 (talk) 06:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

What basis (in Wikipedia policy) do you have for your claim to not be reverted? I am glad to hear that you think that you can reference the material but until you do, it shouldn't be there. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

As normal i will revert you then add the sources [it makes the process easier :)] I know I can reference it ;). besides, you are doing a good job. PMK1 (talk) 05:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I see that you've reverted my edit, but you haven't sourced the material. If you continue with this behaviour, I will request that you be blocked from editing. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but unfortunately i do not have all day to attach sources to a Wikipedia document. You might have realised by now that the Macedonian Australian community is not all that well documented in English language text. I really cannot see why this has become such a big issue. The point of this project is to have information and not to just delete it ASAP. PMK1 (talk) 03:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

In that case you should only restore the material as and when you can source it. This is an issue because of WP:Verifiability. Your comment about the lack of sources in English and your edit summaries suggest that you might not be able to find sources for all of the material. In this case, it shouldn't be there. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

As i said i will source it. It is just unhelpful when you revert every day the information which I have not had time to source. Give it some patience. PMK1 (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. How long do you anticipate this taking? I did first raise this issue in December, so it's not as if I haven't given you notice. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:01, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Fine i will make a deal with you. Everytime i logon i will go to this page first and add a source. :) PMK1 (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

So how long will it take to source the whole article? Cordless Larry (talk) 09:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: It would be helpful if you could make use of citation templates when adding the references. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

It is now approaching a month since you edited the article. Do you still intend to add sources? If not, I will beging removing the unsourced material again. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Move to ethnic Macedonian Australian

This article should be moved to ethnic Macedonian Australian since there is also another numerous group of people that also self identify as Macedonian Australians. There is also a not yet approved proposed policy Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(identity) that indicates that the name "Macedonian Australians" should be used for each case. Since this article is place-holding that name no new article can be created even if it is to redirect to a section in a main article. There policy does not state any reason to discriminate in favor of any of the two peoples so Macedonian Australian should be a disambiguation page and the two peoples in disambiguated titles. I am putting this for discussion but any move must happen only after WP:ARBMAC2 temporary injunction prohibiting such moves in Macedonia related articles ends.Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 23:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

This looks awfully WP:POINTy to me. Just saying. BalkanFever 09:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose:

• goes against naming convention
• The Wikipedian principle of self-identity would trump any criticism of an alleged misrepresentation of a name, irrespective of the merits of either side' arguments.
• We generally do not have articles about people from specific subnational regions (like Barvarian Australian or Texan Australian); Australians with origins in northern Greece who claim this name are still represented as Greek Australian.Kransky (talk) 13:17, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

comment: Generally no, but how many overlaps do we have to justify the need for separate articles? In special cases we do: there is the Quebec diaspora which is subregional (of Canada). Then again there are the reverse cases of English-speaking Quebecer immigrants like Scots-Quebecer and Irish Quebecers. If one endeveaours to write the article about Macedonian Australians (that are ethnic-Greeks), what name shall it take? An article like that is necessary if only to prove that there are other people that self identify as Macedonians in Australia. Some of them emigrated from an Ottoman region Macedonia back when no part of it was either Greek or Yugoslav. Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 11:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

response As I said, generally no. Where there are subnational differences (such as Scottish) we do have articles, but these are based on the region of origin (ie Scotland). We do not have articles like Indo-Fijian Australian or White South African Australian, and I fail to see any merit in starting a precedent where people from the same region are treated differently. Kransky (talk) 23:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose; Macedonian Australian is the main term used to identify these people. When someone says "Macedonian Australian" they mean these people; not a sub-group of Greeks. PMK1 (talk) 13:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

No. per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Greeks in Australia already have an article: Greek Australian. We have been through this before. Please take your tendentious arguments elsewhere. And incidentally, the dab hat serves no real function other to mark an equally tendentious pov; it needs to stay gone. Aramgar (talk) 13:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

INTENTIONAL CONFUSION & AMBIGUITY

I stumbled on this article recently and even though i had seen this a few years ago, i noticed substantial changes made to it. I recommend that in order to make the article more clear and authentic, i suggest that any information included here should be done on the basis that it is 100% correct and not somebodies opinion. I find that there is a huge overlap in the article in regards to people of Macedonian origin who also identify themselves as Greek. This has been conveniently used by the writer of this article to distort the figures and make the Slav Macedonian part of Australia look better than what it actually is. An example of this is in regards to Peter Daicos. Is he Greek Macedonian or Slavo Macedonian. Another major problem & POV is the phrase Aegean Macedonian. This should be removed from the article. There is no such thing as an Aegean Macedonia. My father & his massive family came here in the late 1940's and identified themselves as Macedonian Greek (in other words a Greek from the Greek state of Macedonia). Never the less, on the censor he was Macedonian & many of these people are now being used to boost the figures to suit political propaganda. I noted that there is no mention of Serbian Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, Bulgarian Macedonians, etc in the article. Do they exist & how have they identified in the census? Of course they do so this is an indication as to the biased intent of this article by not including any of these people as a separate entity in the figures. Another issue is when you claim that the Greek Orthodox Church in Shepparton is not what it says it is, Greek. This is an insult to anybody who has been involved in the establishment and running of that church. The Greek community in this town has been large & strong from before 1900 and the history of the Greek Macedonians there deserves a bit more respect than what has been intended in this article. So my suggestions to improving this article is to only include things which are 100% indisputable and not try to incorporate items just to bulk things out to make the article look longer & better. Its compatible to getting a bigger better car because you have an inferiority complex. As to getting accurate information on the people you are claiming to be Ethnic Macedonians as you refer to them, before you include them in the article, i suggest contact be made with the ones still alive and ask them what they identify with. I know this is time consuming and may not always be possible, especially when some of the people are no longer with us, but i am sure they have remaining family which of course is the next best authentic information obtainable. I think that any reporting whether professional or otherwise owes its readers accurate & proper first hand research otherwise it is only one persons theory and opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellasforever (talk • contribs) 21:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Where is this church, what is it's history?

There is a photo of Resurrection of Christ, Macedonian Orthodox Church. Where is this church? It almost certainly a re-commissioned church of another Christian denomination, what is the history? Why? To show why this photo should be in this wikipage, and to give the historical context of the common reuse of churches in Australia by other more recently established Christian denominations. Brunswicknic (talk) 07:56, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

It's in Rockdale, according to File:Rockdale Macedonian Orthodox Church.JPG. There are so many problems with this article - huge sections lack sources and are possibly original research - and it could really do with thorough revision. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:05, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

It could do with a serious pruning. It's a remarkably long and detailed article given the lack of reliable sourcing, and the number of people who constitute 2nd and 3rd generation ethnic ties. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 9 external links on Macedonian Australians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080721153117/http://scatt.bilegrip.com/rjr2.htm to http://scatt.bilegrip.com/rjr2.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120308121425/http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59693563&lId=2 to http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59693563&lId=2
• Added archive https://archive.is/20120713234727/http://southwest.thewest.com.au/regionals.aspx?MenuID=360&ContentID=50873 to http://southwest.thewest.com.au/regionals.aspx?MenuID=360&ContentID=50873
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080416201847/http://www.macedonianemb.org.au/index_MKinAUS.html to http://www.macedonianemb.org.au/index_MKinAUS.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080728100539/http://www.radio.sbs.com.au/language.php?page=info&language=Macedonian to http://www.radio.sbs.com.au/language.php?page=info&language=Macedonian
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.migrationheritage.nsw.gov.au/readingroom/reports/npws/index.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100203221007/http://www.mccvic.org/ to http://www.mccvic.org/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080718194825/http://fomkud.org.au/ to http://www.fomkud.org.au/
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.communitywebs.org/MacedonianCommunitySA/default.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080608211850/http://www.pollitecon.com/html/macedonian_spark/index.html to http://www.pollitecon.com/html/macedonian_spark/index.html
• Added archive https://archive.is/20081121101501/http://www.stirlinglions.com.au/home.htm to http://www.stirlinglions.com.au/home.htm

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Referring to Macedonians as Bulgarians

Reading the source of James Jupp in the section, it does not mention ANYWHERE that the Macedonians referred to themselves as Bulgarians pre-WW2. Hence, I have removed the section specifically pertaining to these views. Jingiby, I have since redone your revert yet await your reply. Macedonia (talk) 02:49, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Read all added sources, please, not only one. More, see article as ethnic Macedonians and Macedonian nationalism, where the process of development of Macedonian identity is described. Most authors, agree that Macedonian identity was developed especially after WWII and that until then the majority of the Macedonian Slavs, who had any national identity felt themselves to be Bulgarians. And stop deleting sourced content, only because you dislike it. Jingiby (talk) 04:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

PS. James Jupp is only the editor. Author of the section is Peter Hill, who is slightly pro-Macedonian. But he also recognizes that "The first overseas Macedonian organisation in Australia was the Bulgarian-oriented Macedonian Political Organisation (MPO) in the United States, later renamed the Macedonian Patriotic Organisation, which held its first congress at Fort Wayne, Indiana, in 1922 etc." More, the most prominent non-Balkan scholars, who deal with the Macedonian diasporas, seem to be unanimous that until 1945, the majority of the Macedonian immigrants of Slavic origin identified themselves as Bulgarians and, more rarely, as Greeks. Victor Roudometoff acknowledges the ethnic identity of the early immigrants, pointing out that: ‘In the case of the Macedonian diasporas, there are three distinct groups holding out different images of Macedonia. These are the Greek Macedonians, the Bulgarian Macedonians, and the post-1945 ethnic Macedonians. The last group is by far the most recent addition to the list. The American anthropologist Loring Danforth, who became famous for his work on the identity conflict between the Greek and Macedonian diasporas in Australia, also confirms the observations of Roudometof... This conclusion is not mine, check that. Jingiby (talk) 12:47, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

The information well sourced. I don't see any problems with this. Especially after Jingiby's latest additions. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 13:30, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

"Related ethnic groups" box should be dropped

It is highly contentious and obviously causes many readers to be upset. Therefore the article is better of not having it, following the Serbian Australians article for example.

To further highlight the flaws with the box, to what degree can these groups be "related"? One can argue for the additional placement of Greek and Albanian Australians, or argue for no related ethnic groups outside of ethnic Macedonians. Beat of the tapan (talk) 03:58, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Update needed with the latest census numbers

Please make update with latest numbers from Australian census.

https://skopskoeho.mk/vo-avstralija-ima-111-352-makedonci-sekoj-vtor-go-zboruva-makedonskiot-jazik-doma/ Voritlas (talk) 02:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

No one has really shown much interest in adding sources to the article since I raised that issue in 2008 (see #Sources above), Voritlas, so unless you want to update it yourself, I wouldn't hold out much hope anyone else will! Cordless Larry (talk) 20:14, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

That said, I see that the overall population figures currently used are from after 2008. It's the history section (including the population figures quoted there) that's more of a problem. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)