Talk:MK Nobilette

Full name

MK Nobilette's full name is Michaela Ann Spatt Nobilette.

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/70878/faces-02-21-14

http://fosota.org/fosotaAlumniList.cfm?g=2012 Lists as Michaela Spatt-Nobilette, 2012 vocal graduate of SF Unified District School of the Arts (SOTA)

I've removed the other website as likely breaching BLP guidelines. I don't think either of these is strong enough to warrant changing the name, as the school is a primary source, so WP:BLPPRIMARY applies, and JWeekly, although likely true, does not meet the threshold of fact-checking for this change. Wikipedia is cautious about presenting too personal information that is not well reported already. It's likely that she, or he family will share this information with a reliable source or on their own webpage, so that it them becomes us just reporting what is well known. I think in time this information will get into the article, for the moment we have to wait. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:19, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Not first openly gay

MK Nobilette is not the first openly gay contestant. There were other contestants who were openly gay, the only difference is that it was never disclosed on the show. Vanessa Olivarez for example came out to other contestants while she was on the show[1], Adam Lambert has never hidden the fact that he is gay (he came out when he was 18 [2], 8 years before he appeared on the show), and Jim Verraros was also known to be gay while on the show (he came out to his parents after the show, but he wrote about being gay in his online journal before the show[3]). MK Nobilette is the first openly gay contestant to be acknowledged on the show, if a news source doesn't understand the distinction, then don't use it. Hzh (talk) 00:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

It's worth clarifying so i'll look as to how to do it. Vanessa Olivarez still is not openly gay although this is certainly valid chapter the reference. Lambert wasn't openly gay until he discussed it after the finals started. Verraros didn't come out publicly until after the tour. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

There seem to be misunderstanding as to what "openly gay" means, it means not hiding what their sexuality is to friends, relations, others who know him or her, or the public. There is a difference between openly discussing their sexuality on TV and being openly gay, because in order to be allowed to discuss it, a TV show has to let you do it. American Idol wasn't interested in discussing contestants' sexuality until this season. Adam Lambert was openly gay before the show, and he was openly gay while on the show, the only difference is that the show did not mentioned his sexuality, but they did with MK Nobilette. They are openly gay because they did not hide their sexuality, unlike Clay Aiken who denied he was gay even after the show[4] (he only came out much later after his music career was almost over). Hzh (talk) 02:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Openly gay is pretty clearly that it is public knowledge, freely available as much as all the other aspects that are far more trivial, and have little or less to do with their singing, like how many siblings, they have, favorite foods, heritage, where they live, go to school, fashion choices, etc. Meanwhile the show goes on and on about girlfriends, boyfriends, their children, etc.

We would need sourcing to show that AI was controlling this information, and just now is willing to discuss it. Otherwise all we have is what is reported in sources as to when they actually publicly came out. I'm working on expanding this section now. But sources are discussing her being the first openly gay contestant and they have a point. We can provide details that *gosh* no one ever asked me, but sure I'm gay. Let's see what the sourcing can confirm. Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:34, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

It was public knowledge that Adam Lambert is gay while he was on the show. Idol-related forums and news sites show pictures of him kissing another man[5], and he publicly stated in a video before Idol that he got to kissed a woman "although it’s not my preference”. [6] It is clear that he was, and has always been publicly out, American Idol simply never made it an issue. No one is saying that American Idol is controlling the information, it was simply never raised as an issue. Hzh (talk) 13:10, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, it was public knowledge to some, but certainly not widely acknowledged, enough so that it was scandalous when *gasp* (I know old news), the images from Burning Man and other evidence surfaced. It became headline news that Idol might have a gay contestant, let alone the front-runner. Was it ever addressed on the show? Maybe that would be good to add, helping show how the issue has perhaps evolved. Currently we report:

• Adam Lambert, the runner-up on the eighth season (2009) was outed during the finals, although he had not hidden his being gay prior. Trebay, Guy (2009-04-12). "Gay Talk Surrounds Adam Lambert of 'Idol'"., "Adam Lambert: America's First gay 'Idol'?". Mainstream media speculated on the readiness of American Idol voters for an openly gay winner. "Adam Lambert: Shaking Up 'Idol'" Mark Harris. 5/8/2009. He confirmed that he was gay in a Rolling Stone cover interview shortly after he was named runner-up. Blas, Lorena (2009-06-15). "Idol Adam Lambert 'comes out' in print". Retrieved 2011-12-23. Nobilette is the only out woman to compete in the finals.

Do you think we need to change or adjust anything? Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I think we need to include David Hernandez, many reports he is gay, but not sure if any good source is out there. However, publicly he is documented as being a gay stripper, but we would explain he was a nude stripper in a "mostly gay male" club. Also Devin Velez apparently has posted images of himself with his boyfriend. Still need a good source though. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:17, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I think we should avoid turning this into a laundry list per WP:Laundry_list. Unless you are creating a page about gay people on American Idol where more details are necessary (and there is no call for that, and any such page would likely to be deleted), it should not be done on another page not directly related. David Hernandez should definitely not be mentioned - he was said to be a stripper in a gay club, that does not implied he is gay (many people who work in such industry are straight, even those working in gay porn). Many people in season 12 were thought to be gay, for example Paul Jolley[7] and Lazaro Arbos[8], but again there is no value in writing this in a Wikipedia page on American Idol, it is too marginal. Also Adam Lambert cannot be outed, he was out already (if saying in public that it's not his preference to kiss a woman is not an admission that he was gay I don't know what is).Hzh (talk) 11:25, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I think you may be overlooking that we report based on what reliable sources state. just because we might have evidence that someone was out to a circle of people doe snot mean they really were out to the world, which is what this is referring to. Lambert may have have been out, as far as you might see it, but the rest of the world acted in surprise and speculated on his success in the competition based on the "revelation," and he did a Rolling Stone interview which ultimately answered the question. Coming out is an ongoing process so we are well within our right to help readers understand that. Mythologizing facts, for whatever reason, is not helping. It's also dismissing the significance of current events. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:04, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Adam Lambert was saying it in a public performance, not just to a small circle of people or friends.[9] I don't think anything who have read what was written and seen what's shown on video would doubt he was openly gay, it's absurd if you don't think what came out Adam Lambert mouth in a public place to be reliable source, and question Adam's own assertion that he was out when he was 18, then there is nothing more to be discussed. I do think you are trying make more of what MK Nobilette did than it is warranted, you are the one who is fact mythologizing her. She is publicly out because American Idol chose to broadcast it, it has nothing to do with whether other contestants were openly out or not. There are millions of openly out gay people, just because they are not on TV announcing the fact doesn't make them not openly out. You are making an entirely spurious distinction. The significance is with American Idol broadcasting it, not her being the first to be openly out, because she isn't. You can say that she is the first openly out contestant to announce the fact on American Idol, and that is true, but she is not the first openly out contestant. Hzh (talk) 00:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I respect that you are knowledgeable in this area. However it would be synthesis to use [10] this source for almost anything. It's a coy statement that cannot be inferred to his sexuality being, 1. non-straight, or 2. widely acknowledged as gay. Let alone the source would be rejected out of hand for being unreliable. Lets try to find NPOV language that represents his being gay was not kept secret but was also not well-known. The sources support this as mainstream media hopped on he issue as a potential scandal, even if they misread things. Nobilette remains the first openly gay contestant going into the finals but I am happy to find the best way to word/qualify this statement. It may make sense to include a generalized statement that people disagree about what it means to be "openly gay."

I think we should include David Hernandez, to clarify he was outed for his job which cannot be inferred to his sexuality. Again this is an issue of the media reporting him as a gay strip club dance, there is no harm in clarifying the nuance. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I've tweaked the phrasing a little, so that the article now calls her "the first openly gay contestant in the history of the series to acknowledge her sexuality on air". --Jpcase (talk) 20:27, 24 April 2020 (UTC)