Talk:Lurs

[Laks are more strongly aligned with Southern Kurds, not Lurs]

It's becoming more and more evident that the Laks are more aligned with the Southern Kurdish tribes than any of the Lurish tribes. Our language is very similar to the Southern Kurdish dialects like Kalhori and particularly Sanjabi. I propose to remove "Laki" from -> "This language is spoken mainly by the Feyli Lurs (including Khorram Abadi, Maleki, and Laks)" Most natural Luri speakers do not understand Laki. All Southern Kurdish speakers do understand Laki. This is true for even Lurs who live in the closest proximity to Laki speakers who do not make an effort to learn Laki.

[Untitled]

-I added Chaharmahal and Bakhtiari Province as it has a large population of Bakhtiari Lors. --DFront21 02:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

-Removing the sentence that Lurs are Persian. First, no evidence is provided. Second, if this was the case, we would call ourselves "Fars" and not "Lor." Thank you. --DFront21 02:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

guys i am lorish and we are persian we speak a freaking persian dialect you idiots our language is related to pahlavi old middle farsi. we are from tajikastan we have persian culture. some people even say tajiks arent persian. its all anti persian B.s.

so am changing it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 (talk) 02:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

To agar lor-id, afamid ma cha eujim? Ma bawer nakam.

We do not call ourselves "lurs". Go to the plains of peshteko and ask them. I have and they call themselves Kurds. Infact, I am related to Hassan Qoli Khan and a tribe living next to mine are from Zand (Karim Khan). But persian nationalists like yourselves can keep calling the kurds "persians". We know who we are and wikipedia cannot change that. Have a good day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.162.89.144 (talk) 04:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC) Nobody in Iran refers to themselves as "Persian" (Fars). Yes, Lori people refer to themselves as Persian in the West. In Iran they are Irani. But, we are not Farsi speaking. Lori is a distinct ethnic group with its own language. I changed the introduction to reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.142.109 (talk) 06:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

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Image of Lurs

Lurs

File:8FamousLorPeople.jpg Darius I of Persia • Karim Khan • Hossein Qoli Khan • Sardar Assad Ay. Borujerdi • Zarrinkub • Mehrdad Avesta • M. Boroujerdi

I removed this image, since there are concerns expressed about whether they are Lurs. Such as Darius I of Persia or Karim Khan. Please verify/modify.Mukadderat (talk) 22:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The Lur:

Ethnologists classify the Lurs as aboriginal Persians. Their language forms a dialect of Persian and does not differ materially from Persian. Traditionally the Lur people outwardly profess Shia Islam, but some of them show little veneration for either Prophet or Koran, and the religion of some of them seems to consist of a mixture of Ali-Illahism involving a belief in successive incarnations combined with mysterious, ancient, heathen rites. The Lurs are some of the most devout Shias in the world. While they are ethnically close to the Kurds and Persians they consider themselves to be a group on to themselves, and especially resent being labeled as Kurdish. In fact, during the Iran-Iraq war, the Lurs proved themselves to be amongst the fiercest fighters protecting Iran against the Iraqi/Arab invasion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.68.149.128 (talk) 04:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

About Karim Khan there might be a problem but about Darius:

• During history the ancestors of the modern Lors have also been called "Persians", As for example Strabo.
• "Lurish" stemmed from Old and Middle Persian as Modern Persian did (Parsik group). Lori has different dialects some of them even more comprehensible to some Persian-speaking people than other ones. Loristan has been Iranized the same way as the south-central of Iran did.
• Persian speakers of Iran don't call themselves "Parsi", so how can one call them more "Persian" while they don't have a self-designator and Lors do (i.e. "Lor")?
• Many of inhabitants of Fars province are Lor many of them has forgotten their dialect and some has retained it.
• It took a long time for original Persians (Aryans) who came from central Asia and surrounding areas to go around present Iran and resettle in Persis in the south, probably during which and surely afterwards they intermingled with indigenous people of Iran. All in all one cannot tell that Darius is more Khorasani than Lor. He is surely more "Lurish" than a Khorasani. It is complicated. It is not possible to draw a sharp line as our minds want to simplify. It is just the difference of sedentary and unsedentary Iraninas/Persians. To complicate it even more a part of sedentary Iranians in Fars province have been called "Tajik" and their language differed from Persian (official language of Iran), some of them languages are still alive. As far as I know the languages of Kerman, Yazd, the north of Fars and Isfahan have been North-Western Iranian (not Parsik) and it has been changed. Lurish is parsik. Raayen (talk) 18:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you please add a source about Luri being a form of Parsig? Perhaps even an Iranian one as opposed to an English one. It would be a good detail to add. Shreksdonkeyfromchina (talk) 19:17, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

famous guyes

baba taher karimkhane zand mir norouz sardar asad bakhtiari abolfathkhan bakhtiari alimorad khan bakhtiary bibi maryam bakhtiary key lohrasb — Preceding unsigned comment added by Madaktoboye (talk • contribs) 10:22, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I am tired of correcting your text under: Lurs

Man,

I am giving hours and hours to correct the false information that from beginning it started wrongly, each time I am trying to correct the article. It again returning to beginning. Okay,I am giving up.

But please, do not cite references/resources from Turks nor from Persian, cause they distorting the real purpose.

Good Day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bavê Şêrko (talk • contribs) 14:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

You are free to edit. But the problem is that your sources do not match with your edits. Your references must match with your edits, Because you refer to them and they will be examined and reviewed by the other editors. Sources must be reliable. Altering sourced content and replacing them with false/wrong ones is not constructive edit but exactly disruptive edit. Also do no write offensive comments (like your above comment) about other ethnic groups. Winter Gaze (talk) 14:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Will it be fair if you talk about Kurds and only cite to Turkish and Persian personalities, and ignore Kurdish personalities like Sharaf Khan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.182.40.52 (talk) 23:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Re-editing request of Lurs article at Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs)

Dear Sir,

Several times I tried to correct the article under title 'Lurs' in the Wiki English page. But each time I correct the false information at article; they've been deleted by a Wiki's author called Winter Gaze.

collapsing long post for readability. Click "show" to read
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Sir, I am against racism but it seems your author called Winter Gaze smells like a racist. Today we may call Lurs just as Lurs. No need to force them feel as Kurds nor Persian. Lurs are just Lurs. But we can not deny their historical ties with Kurds. As given information below there are many ties and connections between Lurs and Kurds. Nonetheless, Paul Ludwig writes that linguistics does not provide a definition for when a language becomes a dialect, and thus, non-linguistic factors contribute to the ethnic unity of some of namely the Lur, Kurmanj, Kalhur, and Guran. Today there are two main dialects spoken by Lurs in Loristan. First is Luri and Second is Laki. Laki dialect is very lose to Kurdish and is spoken nearly by half of Lurs. They no not deny their ties with Kurds. Genetical researches done on Lurs show that they are closer to Kurds. Sir, If you make a researh on the internet you will find a lot of information regarding Lurs and their connection and ties with the Kurds. Here I will give you some samples for this. I would like to start from Wiki resources: In Wiki Turkish page it says that they are a Kurdish branch: 'Lurlar (Farsça: لر Lor), Batı İran'da Luristan, Huzistan, Hamedan, Çaharmahal ve Bahtiyari, İsfahan ve İlam eyaletlerinde yaşayan Kürt halkının kollarından biridir.' http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lur In Wiki Kurdish page it says that the Lurs divided apart from Kurds and lately become known as Lurs and their Language mixed a lot with Persian Language. 'Lor anku Lur, îro navê gelekî li navbera Fars û Kurdistanê ye. Şerefxan Bedlîsî gelê Lor li ser Kurdan dijmerê, Kurdolog Izady wî yekî qenat tînê, li gorî wî Lor di sedsala 16 de ji kurdan qetîyanê û bûnê gelekî serbixwe. Lêbelê zimanê Lurî wê demê weke zaravêyekî Farsî tê dîtîn. Lûr jî bi piranî xwe gelekî serbixwe dibînin, lêbelê Lure ku xwe li Kurda an jî Farsa dijmerin jî hene. Gelek çavkaniyan dibêje aslê Lor diçe Kurdan.' http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lur A 16th century of Kurdish historan in his histroical Book Sharafnama gives information on Lurs and stresses they are Kurdish origin. He states that there are one of four division of Kurds: Kurmanj, Lur,Kalhur and Guran, each of which speak a different dialect or language variation. Wiki: 'The Sharafnama divides its history into four parts. The first one deals with the five Kurdish dynasties that have enjoyed status as royalty (Saltant): the Marwanids of Amed, the Hasanwayhids ofDinavar and Sharizur, the Fadluyids of the Great Lur, the princes of little Lur, and finally, Saladin the Great and the Ayyubids.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharaf_Khan_Bidlisi Wiki English page in article under Lak people (Iran) says: The Laks are an Iranian group in southwestern Iran. They speak Laki (or Leki), a Northwestern Iranian language, that is usually grouped with Southern Kurdish dialects.[1][2][3][4] It is important to note that many Laki-speaking communities identify as Kurds and many scholars continue to classify Laks as ethnic Kurds. Many scholars as well as Laks themselves consider Laks as ethnically Lur.[7] There has been much debate over ethnic identity of the Laks throughout the twentieth century. Zayn al-‘Ābidīn Shīrvānī, the writer of the Persian geographic work Bustān al-siyāha (“The Garden of the travel”) in 19th century introduces the Laks as a Lur tribe. In our own times, the Persian writer Īzadpanāh about laks, the writer of the Lurii-Persian dictionary, emphasizes the Luri identity of the Laks and calls it a misunderstanding to consider the Laks as Kurds. Vladimir Minorsky, who wrote the entry "Lak" in the first edition of the Encyclopaedia of Islam, referred to the Lak as "the most southern group of Kurd tribes in Persia" and stated that their language has the characteristics of Kurdish.[8] Some of the Lak tribes live in Lorestān Province, among Lur tribes, although Minorsky quotes some evidence that they were brought there from further north. He mentions that they are often confused with the Lur, but are different.[8] The Bajilan are one of the more prominent Lak tribes. There is a tribe of the same name east of Mosul, but whereas Minorsky believes the Bajilan of Zohab had come from Mosul,[8] the later scholar D.N. MacKenzie believed the Bajalan or Bajwan of Mosul to be an offshoot of the much larger Zohab Bajilan.[9] In Academic Kids it says: Ethnologists classify the Lurs as aboriginal Iranians, closely related to the Kurds. As stated above, their language, called Luri, is closely related to Persian, and there are two distinct dialects of this language. Lur-e-Bozourg (Greater Lur), which is spoken by the Bakhtiaris, and Lur-e-Kuchik (Lesser Lur), spoken by the Lurs themselves http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Lurestan In Encyclopedia Britannica it says: Lur, any member of a mountain Shīʿite Muslim people of western Iran numbering more than two million. The Lurs live mainly in the provinces of Lorestān, Bakhtīārī, and Kohgīlūyeh va Būyer Aḥmad. Their main languages are Luri and Laki. Luri, which has northern and southern variants, is closely related to Persian, while Laki is more nearly related to Kurdish. Still other Lurs speak Bakhtyārī, which is mutually intelligible with Luri. The Lurs are thought to be of aboriginal stock, with strong Iranian, Arabic, and other admixtures. In Cultural Survival it says: Most Lurs speak an Iranian dialect known as Luri; however, nearly half the Lurs of Luristan province speak Laki, another Iranian dialect. The Luri dialect is closer to Persian while Laki is closer to Kurdish. In http://fasa-eeg.blogfa.com it also in http://www.uandmyfuture.blogfa.com/post-2754.aspx says: LUR TRIBES They are probably the most intact tribes of Iran, retaining their robustness, virility, and tall stature. They are mostly cultivators and shepherds and occupy the high grounds of Lurestan, south of Kurdestan, and Kermanshah provinces. The Lursare thought to be a division of the ancient Kurds, both tribes being considered true descendants of the Medes. The Mamasani Lurs dwelling in western mountains of Fars form one of the most important clans. In Faili Kurds web page it says: The following ideas will be discussed: - There are those who see the Faili as part of the large Kurdish population - Those who believe that the Faili is Lur / Lorr with no ethnic ties to the Kurds - Faili Kurds is the origin of Kurds, ethnic and linguistic - Lurs are not Kurds - Kurds are Lur / Lorr The theories are many. I as Faili Kurd sees us as Lor, and consider the Lor/lur a non-divisible part of the Kurdish people. Historical evidence of how close ties Lurs have to Kurdistan and Kurds are many. Mr. Erik Jhon Anonby in his article called 'Kurdish or Luri?' says: Conclusion This article has attempted to address issues of ethnicity and linguistic affiliation of the peoples commonly called »Laki.« Both topics remain uncertain as concerns Posht-e Kuh Laki, but the status of Pish-e Kuh Laki has been clarified in the present study. While members of the latter group have at times been considered ethnically Kurdish or Laki, they in fact define themselves as Lurs. The genetic affiliation of their language, which has also been the object of contradictory accounts, has been located within the Northwestern family of Iranian languages. Pish-e Kuh Laki is thus more closely related to Kurdish than to the Luri languages. At Faylee (Fayli) Kurds page it says: Who Are Fayli Kurds and where do they live? Fayli (Faylee, Faili, or Feli) Kurds are, as their name tells, an inseparable segment of the Kurdish population in Iraq and an integral part of the Kurdish nation, which is divided among many countries in the Middle East, mainly Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. Fayli Kurds have themselves shown, over the years, and still show this fact and reality by words and deeds. They speak a dialect that belongs to the southern Kurdish dialect called Luri which is spoken in the southern areas of Kurdistan proper, particularly on both sides of the border areas between Iraq and Iran. [1] However, all Kurds speaking this dialect are not called Fayli [2]. One can say that Kurds speaking this dialect and living in and around Baghdad as well as some cities and towns in eastern and southern Iraq are called Fayli. There are many and diverse explanations for why these Kurds are called “Fayli”; however there is no plausible, well documented and generally convincing or accepted one. Fayli Kurds in Iraq have lived mainly in Baghdad (largely in the Kurdish Quarter (Agdelkrad, a Ghetto) and when they became better off economically they moved to more affluent areas, such as Etefiya, Jamila and Shari’ Falastin) and in lesser numbers in towns and cities near the borders with Iran from as north as south of the historically and demographically Kurdish city of Kirkuk to as far south as north of the southern city of Basra. [3] On the Iranian side of the borders, Fayli Kurds (though not referred to by this name) live in the provinces of Kirmashan and Ilam and southward though not called Fayli Kurds. Since the mass expulsions from Iraq in the seventies and eighties there is a large number of Fayli Kurds in Tehran as well. [1] Fayli Kurds are Muslims and the vast majority of them are of the Shiite faith. [2] A distinction must be made between Fayli Kurds from Khanaqin, Mandali and surrounding areas that are within or in proximity of the southern end of the Kurdistan Region in Iraq and Fayli Kurds living in Baghdad and other cities and towns in central and southern Iraq inhabited by an Arab majority. The former have suffered from forcible internal displacement whereas the latter have been subjected to forcible deportation to a neighboring country, namely, Iran. [3] They live in the cities and towns of Khanaqin, Mendeli (Manali in Kurdish), Saadiya, Shahraban, Kut, Amara, Bedra, Zurbatiya, Jassan, Kumet, Sheikh Saad, Nu’mania, Hei, Rifa’i, Ali al-Sharji and Ali al-Gharbi and other towns in the central and southern parts of Iraq. [4] Some Fayli Kurds living in close proximity to Arabs in Iraq dress themselves like Arabs but speak Kurdish and see themselves as Kurds. Among them are the Rewari and Kurdeli. The same phenomenon is observed in Kurdistan Iraq too, especially among Yezidi and Shebak Kurds and Kurds from Sinjar. [5] According to American estimates there are at present 700.000-750.000 Fayli Kurds living in Baghdad (source: personal communication after a recent visit to Baghdad). According to Ayatollah Seyid Hadi Muderrisi there are 3 million Fayli Kurds in Iraq (written statement on the still continuing injustices against Fayli Kurds, Sept 24, 2003). http://faylee.org/articles/doc111.htm

Based on above information we can not deny Lurs ties and connection with Kurds. For that, I insist of reediting of Lurs article in Wiki.

Please do not give the right of editing the article of Lurs only and only to the Wiki's editor/author so called Winter Gaze as it will not be fair.

Sincerely Yours,

Bave Sherko

21.01.2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.184.231.173 (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe you'd be best served by taking your issue to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. fredgandt 20:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is not the correct venue to raise these issues. Please try Talk:Lurs. If, after some days of discussion among the editors there, you do not reach a satisfactory resolution, please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. --Jayron32 20:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I would add to the advice of Fred Gandt and Jayron that you should read WP:AGF and WP:NPA. It is not only Winter Gaze who reverts your edits; you are being reverted by several editors. They revert you correctly because you do not cite reliable sources, your sources do not support your content, or you remove sourced content. Note that Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. —teb728 t c 21:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Sir, Be honest and tell me that you have read my entire article. I am 100% sure that you did not. Not even checked my given references? Yes I tried to resolve the problem in the Talk area but nothing has changed. For that reason alternatively I tried it here that it could make any sense.

Yes, -for that I am a novice at Wiki- I may lead some mistakes in my attempts to try to correct the articles but it doesn't change the necessity of changing the current article. Because it is not relaying on the facts. And I think I tried the Dispute resolution. But I think my request has been deleted. Let's say I am a novice and I am a rude person. Does that gives you the right to continue to publish wrong information regarding Lurs. As you mentioned above that several editors reverted my articles, you and all other editors believe that I was totally wrong in my articles? And, this happened after reading my entire articles and given references, none even one of my words was true? What do you mean exactly? Am I inventing history by myself? You mean my whole attempts were relied on lies? Did the editors and you read my references? If not satisfied, did you get the books that were given as references?

What do you mean by satisfactory resolution exactly? So, you want me to believe a student desertation texts which written by Limbert, John? Or want me to beleive a Turkish guy Hakan Ozglu that he is making demagogy regarding Luristan map. He and I we well know that in Ottoman era Luristan was attaching to Kurdistan. All maps are in the Turkish Libraries. You may not believe me then you better have a visit to Istanbul and visit Turkish National Library to see by your eyes. Of course now-days Luristan wont attach to Kurdistan because there is no country so called Greater Kurdistan. Even that, Today Lurs become a free nation.

You mean you do not satisfy with Vladimir Minorsky's books and articles? Or with articles from Oscar Mann? And you don't believe Sharaf Khan Bidlisi, a 16th century historian? Did you read his book Sharafnama? So you mean he is also lying? For the sake of God. All these are expert people that made rehearses regarding Kurds, Persians and Lurs. Do the editor Winter Gaze and the others know that Sharafnama was written in 16th century and is a history book? So, you are treating his book as phony lies?

Even that. I am asking you. Why info regarding Lurs in the Wiki Turkish and in the Wiki Kurdish are differing from the Wiki in English? I am asking you. Which one is true? Rather Wiki Turkish and Kurdish must be wrong or rather Wiki English? So, whenever I tried to correct the main idea of the Turkish text you wont let me to change it? You are so confusing.... In fact, to me, lazy people to read.

Anyway I am not working for the Wiki and it is not necessity for me to do so. I believe what I believe and you do what you want. I just wanted to put the things on its way and I could not success in your pages only. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.155.137 (talk • contribs)

Hi there. This issue was recently posted at the dispute resolution noticeboard and I have closed the discussion. The issue should really be discussed further at the article talk page before it is taken to the noticeboard. In addition, if using the dispute resolution noticeboard becomes necessary, please remember to click the "Initiate a new discussion" button and follow the instruction provides; please do not simply copy & paste text from this page. Thank you. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 21:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism by User:Solhjoo

"Lurs consider it an insult to be confounded with the Kurds, Luristan and Luri areas are not part of Kurdistan.The Kermanshahi people have no interest in autonomy" some sentences by Solhjoo. What is this? an encyclopedia or his blog? Why none of admins doesnt stop him?--Meymano (talk) 20:55, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

This much is actually attested to by Clement Huart in his book "Ancient Persia and Ancient Civilisation". It isn't a new thing. Shreksdonkeyfromchina (talk) 19:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

We should make this a semi-protected article, I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.86.142.220 (talk) 16:45, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Religion

The info bar states Lyrs also adher to Yaresan. What part of Luristan does this occur? From my experience, all Lurs are Shia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.123.133 (talk) 07:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Baba tahir

Some are removing Baba Tahir as a Lur. Here is the sample of sources:

• "The relations of these dialects to one another, and to the languages of ancient Persia, have not yet been fully worked out, though excellent monographs on several of them exist, and the quatrains of the celebrated Baba Tahir, "the Lur...," [1]
• "A little volume containing the quatrains of 'Omar Khayyam, of Baba Tahir the Lur of Hamadan (the most celebrated dialectical poet of Persia)" [2]
• "Two modern copies of quatrains (in W. Persian dialect) of Baba Tahir 'Uryan " the Lur." [3]
• "notably of Baba Tahir whose poems in the Lur dialect are highly esteemed"][4]
• "le Luristan et le poete Baba Tahir Hamadani" [5]-Raayen (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

POV-push and reliability of sources

Hello, please look at this and this edits of user:Shadegan. It's important to look at sources. For example, the user:Shadegan added , Erik John Anonby as a so-called source which supports Laki belongs to Luri language. But if you read pages 19 and 20, you can see a comparison of Pish-e Kuh Laki with Kurdish and Luri. After that the author says: Pish-e Kuh Laki is aligned with Kurdish rather than Luri. This is distortion of information. User:Shadegan is also adding some persian sources which can not be checked/proved. Thanks.--Gomada (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Another falsifying from User:Shadegan. The source says:Fayli (Faylee, Faili, or Feli) Kurds are, as their name tells, an inseparable segment of the Kurdish population in Iraq and an integral part of the Kurdish nation, which is divided among many countries in the Middle East, mainly Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. Fayli Kurds have themselves shown, over the years, and still show this fact and reality by words and deeds. They speak a dialect that belongs to the southern Kurdish dialect called Luri which is spoken in the southern areas of Kurdistan proper, particularly on both sides of the border areas between Iraq and Iran. And the user:Shadegan is using this source as a proof of so called Lur identity. Who will stop this vandalism?--Gomada (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Lurs in Luri

User:Shadegan Those are only some varieties of Lori, and since there is no Standard Lori, and in my opinion it is only a dialect of farsi, we better don't add that to the article. Many (if not all) varieties of Lori don't add al to make a noun plural.Taddah (talk) 11:59, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Dear @Taddah: Laki is a part of Lurish language continuum, Southern Lurish and Bakhtiary are too. Wikipedia is a science-based encyclopedia and not based on your thoughts and guesses. Lurish is believed to consist of some languages inward. You may believe that Lurish or Kurdish are Farsi dialects and some people may believe that Farsi is a dialect of Arabic. Science and scientific surveys are determining not our personal thoughts. From anotherside from Lurish sub-languages, only KhorramAbadi one does not apply "al, or ail" as plural suffix, so the reasonable method is the plural suffix applied by the majority of Lurs. Best Regards. --Shadegan (talk) 13:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Hey there! None of what I said is based on my thoughts or guesses. Lori is derived from persian and is a dialect of that language. Maybe some consider it a separate language but that's irrelevant to our discussion. As for Laki, it is considered by most to be a dialect of Kurdish and not Lori, though there are some debates about that. Also it is not only Khoramabadi lori that doesn't add al as the plural suffix, but most or all varieties. Most importantly, what you added to the article is unsourcecd and therefore should be removed.Taddah (talk) 14:06, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

@Taddah:, As you know English, Dutch, Swedish, German and Dannish are members of the Germanic languages, but each are an independent and separate languages. If the Lurish languages for example are a member of ancient Parsi or Pahlavi originated language, it does not mean to consider it as a Farsi or Kurdish dialect.--Shadegan (talk) 14:27, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

@Taddah:, I wonder what is the reason you ae doing such an annoying edits t lead the involved users to edit war???

By a simple search in linguistic websources it is completely evident that Luri in distinct from Persian and it is considered as independent language. Please stop your annoying and baseless edits.--Shadegan

What you say is irrelevant to our dispute. I say what you write is not Luri. It is Laki or maybe Kurdish (as Laki is a dialect of Kurdish). By the way, Luri is merely a dialect of Persian today. Taddah (talk) 13:35, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I suggest you studying the psper ""Update on Luri; how many lsnuages are there?""  By Eic Anonby to be sure aboutmy claims.

Also you can ask s Southern Lur from Yasuj, Mamsani, Kohkiluyeh,  Gschsaran, Behbahan to make you trusted.

If that paper is the source for your claim add it to the article. Otherwise, what you do is original research which is not acceptable according to wikipedia policies. plus the article is about Luri, not Southern Luri. Taddah (talk) 23:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

@Shadegan:, @Taddah: I have restored the Persian spelling of their name, since Lurs basically speak Persian and Lurish. Also, both of you guys may be blocked if you keep engaging in edit-warring. Please discuss your disagreement here. Thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:57, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

User:Wikaviani Lori is a vernacular language or dialct. Shadegan wrote loro and loral using Persian alphabet. loral is Laki which is a separate language/dialect, and I'm sure that Shadegan also agrees that Laki is separate from Lori. As he claimed that Lori, Persian, and Kurdish are separate. Laki is considered by most, if not all, linguists to be a dialect of Kurdish, not Lori. Loro is Bakhtiary Lori, but I also disagree with writing that in the article. You might ask why! Because Bakhtiari is only one dialect of Lori. We must add what Lors call themselves in Standard Lori. But do we have a Standard Lori? No! Since as I said, Lori is just a vernacular language. If we write the Bakhtiari equivalant in the article, 10 other users may also write Lors in their own dialect of Lori! This is why I'm against writing that in the article (toghether with the reasons I gave you previously). Regards. Taddah (talk) 11:11, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

User:Wikaviani What do you think? Taddah (talk) 09:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I do not agree that Laki is distinct from Luri, as most Laks consider themselves as pure Lurs. The user Taddah based on his personal wishes has tried several times to prove that Luri is a Persian dialect unjustly but he/she has not provided a scientific reliable reason. Several scientific linguistic websources like Ethnologue, and several scientific papers involved in the paper Lurs are inserted. Southern Lurs use the plural suffix "al", or "yal" in their language as Laks do so. This is not strange issue,for example Kurdish dialects use different plural suffixes and it is not odd at all.SHADEGAN (talk) 13:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

User:Shadegan The one who is trying to change facts because of his own wishes is you! What you are doing is called psychological projection. I agree that most Laks don't consider themselves separate from Lors. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't. I believe that it is because most/many Laks live in Lorestan Province. Laks are considered by most scholars to be Kurdish people, and the grammar of their language also shows that. I am half Lak and I know their language. Lors and Kurds are also close, but they are separate ethnic groups. I checked the page Laks on English Wikipedia, and I realized that the article now, unlike before, says that Laks are Lor people, and you were the one who made those changes. I'm so disappointed to see that users like you can make so many nonsense changes on wikipedia pages with edit wars, and nobody cares about them. But, I'm going to revert those edits too. Stop your rubbish about "scintific papers". You didn't prove that anyone of these papers supports your garbage, and I'm sure you can't. Plus never say that rubbish about me trying to place Lori as a dialect of Persian again. I said that it is my opinion. I just said that in here, the talk page. Do not digress. Taddah (talk) 17:08, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

@Taddah: @Shadegan: I would suggest both of you guys to calm down and discuss in a civil manner together. Please focus on content, not users. Do you have any source supporting your claims ? if yes, please provide them here. Thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

User:Wikaviani Of course I have reliable sources! Search Laki in Dehkhoda if you know Persian or read this if you doubt that Laks are separate from Lors. Taddah (talk) 15:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

@Taddah: your above link is Encyclopedia Iranica, a good source, and it supports clearly some differences between Laks and Lors. I quote : "From a cultural point of view, the Lak are very close to their neighbors and have sometimes been confused with them, especially with the Lors in their southern and eastern environs. The main ‘ethnic marker’ of the Lak, however, is their language, which is quite different from that of the Lors.  Several European travelers, as well as native observers, have spoken also about the difference in physiognomy of these two ethnic groups." Shadegan, it seems that Taddah is right. Thoughts ? Best regards.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:08, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Dear Wikaviani, thank you for your kind attention. Excuse me for my late. As you know there are very dispute about the ethnic identity of West Iranian tribes. A significant part of Laks especially in Lorestan, Ilam and southern parts of Hamadan consider themselves as Pure Lurs as is mentioned by different foreign explorers[6], in case of Iranica; the biggest Lak tribe is Beyranvand tribe, please take a look to this section of Iranica [7], also for Hasanvand tribe that is a major Laki speaking tribe it is clearly evident [8]. I do not deny some Lak tribes mainly in Kermanshah consider themselves as Kurds too but the majority consider themselves as Lurs. The modern canadian explorer Erik Anonby verified that Laks in Pishe kooh Luristan (today Lorestan province strongly consider themselves as Lurs ["Those belonging to Pish-e Kuh identify strongly with the Lurs, and those known as Posht-e Kuh show strong cultural ties to both Lurs and Kurds" in (http://anonby.balafon.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/laki-article-typset.pdf)]. There are also good sources mentioned in the paper Lurs, you can have a look there. So based on some sources mainly focused on language characteristics we cannot ignore and deny the identity of people who are the majority of nowaday Lorestan province. My moternal tribe as an example are Laks that believe their Lurish identity is irrefutable! Can someone force them to change their identity?

Mrs/Mr Taddah insists that because of different plural suffixes used by Luri dialests inside, we should not insert them in introducing Lurs in their native language!!! In addition to Lurs in Lurestan, there are a significant group of Bakhtiari and Southern Lurs who are lingally distinct. Southern Lurs like Laks and half of Bakhtiaries use the plural suffixes " al", and "gal" [9][ طاهری، اسفندیار (۱۳۹۳) ساز در لری بویراحمدی معرفه‌های ساخت - پژوهشگاه علوم انسانی و مطالعات فرهنگی، صفحه ۵۷–۷۰, قابل دسترس بصورت آنلاین در: 20160718150537-10064-142.p], I wonder how the user Taddah tries to delete this characteristics repeatedly!?! Best RegardsSHADEGAN (talk) 18:54, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Wikaviani Do you really find his answers convincing? Taddah (talk) 18:12, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Since this claim seems to be disputed, it should be worded in a WP:NPOV way. Something like "Some Laks identify as Lurs but others do not" (this is just an example).---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:18, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how they identify themselves. What reliable sources say matters, and Shadegan gave no reliable source to prove that Laks are Lor people. Taddah (talk) 08:57, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Wikaviani Take a look at what he has done. I made some changes to the page and wrote my reason. Shadegan reverted my whole edit (instead of just changing the part under dispute) without even writing an edit summary as always. Please just tell me what you think about him and his manner. Taddah (talk) 14:01, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

@Shadegan: Your own sources seem to contradict you, i quote, from Anonby (here) : "The author concludes that although this group is ethnically associated with the Luri population of Luristan, their distinctive Laki vernacular is actually a North-western Iranian language with a close genetic relation to Kurdish.". As far as i can see, the Iranica entry does not support your claim either. Please clarify and wait for the discussion to conclude before editing the article. Thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

External links modified

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Aboriginal

I question the use of the word aboriginal here. It is generally taken to mean first - the first to live in an area. While these people may be related to the 'original' Aryan/Iranian people who settled in this region, so are most other Iranians. Since there certainly were people living in the region before the Lurs, they can't be said to be aboriginal to the area. And if the intent is to say 'aboriginal Aryans,' then the word original would suit better that the extreme aboriginal.

And yes, I understand that there may be political implications to this term. But its use here is wrong. MarkinBoston (talk) 23:47, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Are these people really a separate ethnicity?

On britannica, which is linked below, it states "Luri, which has northern and southern variants, is closely related to Persian, while Laki is more nearly related to Kurdish."

One is closer to Persian the other Kurdish. Shouldn't this article be split?--Persian Lad (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of Lur

In pashto language lewara means tall ; and in comparision with the meanings of fars and turk that I personaly found them it concordantly denote one specification of statue. this is not a quote. Thanks 194.86.153.173 (talk) 11:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Amir Arab194.86.153.173 (talk) 11:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020

I like to state that There is two opinions about were the lurs come from as most consider them actually the original persians and lot's say that they are persian in the middle east and the only reason they speak a dialect of middle persian is actually because of them wanting to keep original persian traditions and therefore are not their own ethnic group so if your going to make this article it upsets me your not teaching them both sides of the story. 8.25.30.159 (talk) 15:01, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source? --Semsûrî (talk) 15:07, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2020

I think you are confused with laks as lurs are actually the original persians that's why their culture is mainly per-islamic persian culture which means lurs are not their own ethnic group and their language is actually a dialect mixed with early and middle persian so that means this page should not exist and even if it does you need to add this as a page about the people who speak it and you may say maybe your a persian who is a ultranationalist but my family are lurs and we consider ourselves original persians and so does the rest of iran and thats why their actually called Persian lores in english as they mean persians backstory PersianAryan7 (talk) 22:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions for this page

Hey, I've got a few suggestions and potential topics to be added to the Lur page.

1. Tribal structures (as in, the general way that different Luri tribes organise themselves traditionally)

2. Potential links to an ancient city called Lor (a page for which exists in WikiFa)

3. Usage of more Persian sources. This is important because western sources rarely rely on actual contact with Luri culture and language.

4. Potential links to Luristan Bronzes

Perhaps adding some things from the Persian page might help (slightly edited). Shreksdonkeyfromchina (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 31 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

---

• Lurs → Lors
• Luri language → Lori language

– WP:COMMONNAME;

• JSTOR: "Lor Iran" 7.922 results - "Lur Iran" 1.230 results
• Brill Publishers: "Lor Iran" 2,186 results - "Lur Iran" 375 results
• Taylor & Francis: "Lor Iran" 1,314 results - "Lur Iran" 387 results
• Google results: "Lor Iran" 7.030.000 results - "Lur Iran" 848.000 results
• And for consistency with Lorestan province HistoryofIran (talk) 23:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 17:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Why are the example searches for "Lur" rather than "Luri"? I see tons of results for Luri language on Google Scholar and practically none at all for Lur language or Lori language (and one of the hits for "Lori" is to an article that clearly uses "Luri" in the title). SnowFire (talk) 23:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I wrote "Lor/Lur" to get results for both the ethnic group (Lor/Lur/Lors/Lurs) and their language (Luri/Lori). I included "Iran" so it would lessen the chance to show similar but unrelated words. Not sure how Google Scholar exactly works, but I get 26.100 for "Luri language" [10] and 463.000 "Lori language" [11], and 1.700 "Luri language Iran" [12] and 16.000 "Lori language Iran" [13].

JSTOR: "Lori language Iran" 2.495 results - "Luri language Iran" 222 results

Brill Publishers: "Lori language Iran" 352 results - "Luri language Iran" 110 results

Taylor & Francis: "Lori language Iran" 341 results - "Luri language Iran" 69 results.

Google results (numbers seem to change here and there): "Lori language Iran" 8.430.000 results - "Luri language Iran" 115.000 results --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

These are not well-done investigations. Did you read the first page of results rather than simply count up the total hits? There is a gigantic reason the word "Lori" might come up that have nothing to do with the ethnic group: Lori is a not uncommon first name that might merely be the author or researcher on anything related to Iran, rendering your raw counts worthless. Take your JSTOR query: the top three hits with "Luri language Iran" are high-quality sources clearly talking about this topic. See Update on Luri: How Many Languages? for example, obviously our topic here. The results from "Lori language Iran" are overwhelmingly Bibliographies that list lots of sources, so all you need is one source with "Iran" in the title and another source written by someone named "Lori" and there you go. Even the previews very directly show it's just people named Lori. But fine, here's an example "Transmission and Diffusion" in a language journal that is in the top few hits and might be related. I download it, search for Lori, and... the references include "Bailey, Guy; Tom Wikle; Jan Tillery; and Lori Sand. 1993. Some patterns of linguistic diffusion. Language Variation and Change 5.359". Again, this is a top-5 hit from your preferred search that is not a Bibliography (which most of them are). In fact, I haven't found any sources that actually are talking about the language and call it Lori. You have to actually read the results you're getting to see if they're relevant, not merely look at the count. SnowFire (talk) 05:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

"Lori is a not uncommon first name"

I'm well aware of that. The word "Luri" is not only restricted to the ethnic group either (probably not as much "Lori" though), so it goes both ways. But surely that isn't the main that there is such a major difference between the numbers? Writing "Lors Iran" and "Lurs Iran" give similar results as the ones above.

"In fact, I haven't found any sources that actually are talking about the language and call it Lori. You have to actually read the results you're getting to see if they're relevant, not merely look at the count."

Sorry, but this comment is a bit ironic, you can easily find sources for the language being called Lori (Brill [14] [15] [16]) (JSTOR [17] [18]) (Taylor & Francis [19][20] [21]) (Google books [22] [23]). Let's maintain WP:GF of each other. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

• (de-indent) It's not ironic. And you misinterpret me: I wasn't saying that nobody anywhere called the language / people "Lori"/"Lors". Rather, it's a sign that your hit counts were deeply misleading. What I was saying was that every single random check I made from your own links were showing that the Lori hits were spurious and related to a first name rather than the language. It wouldn't shock me if 90-95%+ of those hits were unrelated, which makes your comparisons useless. Meanwhile, a huge proportion of the searches on "Luri" (which you inexplicably did not compare to, despite that being the current title of the language) clearly are about the language. You say that "[Luri] is not only restricted to the ethnic group either" but as your own parenthetical notes, the hit rate of relevant links is far higher. Anyway, my inspection of the sources seems to indicate that Luri/Lurs is still the predominant form. SnowFire (talk) 20:39, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  It's not ironic. And you misinterpret me: I wasn't saying that nobody anywhere called the language / people "Lori"/"Lors".

  That's not what I was trying to imply at all. As for the rest of your comment, it seems we won't reach an agreement here, and that's cool. I guess it's best to let others chime in. Thanks for the discussion. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Iran has been notified of this discussion. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 17:54, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Ethnic groups has been notified of this discussion. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 17:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cloth and wearing

This is not lurs wearing, this is qashqai people wearing and the photo must be corrected Irani2024 (talk) 17:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)