Talk:Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor/Archive 8

The shilling could be a little more sublte.

"The fighter's combination of stealth, aerodynamic performance, and mission systems enable unprecedented air combat capabilities and set the benchmark for its generation."

That's just embarrassing. "the benchmark"? Why are you talking to me as though you're an advertising brochure? I don't know what your "benchmarks are." CrickedBack (talk) 10:11, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

There are two cited sources for that sentence. Did you follow up on them? As for benchmarks, consider how other 5th generation fighters are generally described in terms of their capabilities: mostly in comparison to the F-22. That isn't even necessarily a result of the F-22 being the best thing ever, rather, it's because it was the first 5th generation fighter aircraft. The F-35 gets compared to the F-22, for example, even though the F-22 surpasses it in a number of areas (and the F-35 surpasses the F-22 in some areas). The Su-57 is compared with the F-22, the J-20 is compared with the F-22, etc. Sometimes in those comparisons, the F-22 comes out on top, and sometimes it does not. Setting the benchmark often means little more than "being first," and so setting the standard. It doesn't mean it has the highest standard. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:06, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The F-22 was the the first operational fighter of its generation (5th). So it should be the benchmark. -Fnlayson (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

This seems to be a simple matter of misunderstanding the meaning of a word. "Benchmark" is often a word used in promotional campaigns, but it actually has a technical meaning. It was originally a point of reference that surveyors would use to measure altitude, like a church steeple whose altitude is already known. The modern definition is: "Something whose quality or quantity is known and which can therefore be used as a standard or reference point with which other things can be compared or measured." It's not an absolute scale but a purely relative one. Every new thing sets the benchmark until the next new thing comes along and leaves it in the dust. Zaereth (talk) 02:44, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree that because it is the first 5th generation fighter, it is in fact the "benchmark" TomaHawk61 (talk) 23:13, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I am astonished such promotional language is in the lede. I am skeptical that the source supports that text added in 2014. Schierbecker (talk) 03:35, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

The word "benchmark" was inserted rather recently too. Would it not be more objective and improve clarity if we simply said it was the first fifth gen fighter? Schierbecker (talk) 03:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

"Fighter generations" is a marketing term, so that would just be exchanging one form of shilling for another one. BilCat (talk) 05:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

"Fighter Generations is a technical reflection of the capabilities of the aircraft. Fifth Gen aircraft are substantially different in design architecture and capabilities. [1] DeknMike (talk) 03:45, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Saying it set the "benchmark" is not promotional, it's factual. No other fighter jet at the time of its release, or arguably now, has approached its level of sophistication.Belregard (talk) 21:26, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if we can really call anything marketing in this case, at least in the literal sense of the term, when they refuse to sell them to anyone. I guess one could make a case for boasting or maybe even a touch of propaganda, since a lot of the military involves sword rattling to make others think twice about messing with you. But sword rattling does little good if it's all just smoke and mirrors, and if anything the military has a history of downplaying its true capabilities. But any fighter that can get up to 58,000 feet --and still pull its nose up steeply enough to put a missile on something a good mile above it-- has definitely set a benchmark in the literal sense of the term. I agree that "unprecedented" was over the top, but I don't think "benchmark" is just a filler adjective (puffery) in this case. That said, it is kind of stating the obvious, and it is only a temporary thing, so it's not really written with that historical or "timeless" perspective in mind. Zaereth (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Going to need a source regardless. Schierbecker (talk) 19:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Finding sources is not a problem. For example, this source from Air and Space Magazine. There are plenty of sources that use the word benchmark when describing the F-22. Have you read the already-cited sources to make sure that they don't say it? Perhaps the better argument against is not one of mere policy but of what separates encyclopedic writing from other forms of expository writing?

I still think there is some misunderstanding about what the word means. The military is constantly benchmarking funds for one project or another. The latest Intel chip was the benchmark of its time until the next generation of computer chip came out. Under the definition of the word, it's plainly obvious that every new technology sets the benchmark for its time, however long or short that may be. It's easy to find sources for that too, such as this from the Air University, here: "The United States raised the stakes and established a benchmark in deception when it fielded the F-117, but even that aircraft is not invincible or invisible to radar.... Instead, the lesson learned is the inevitable downfall of technology in combat. The technological benchmark in warfare consistently resets, and there has yet to be a technology that cannot be countered."

The point is, however true it is for the moment, or even maybe the next decade or two, an encyclopedia should be written as if what we write today will still be relevant 100 years from now and not read as if it's dated. It's also not necessary and, to the contrary, more often than not comes off as condescending to point out the obvious. Finding sources is easy, but writing is hard work, and I think we could probably do a little more to make the writing seem less dated. Zaereth (talk) 20:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a better source? That one just makes a prediction, circa 1998, that the F-22 will be the one to beat. Schierbecker (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm the one who added the phrase "set the benchmark for its generation". Note that I specifically caveated with "for its generation", i.e. 5th generation fighter. The F-22 is widely accepted as the first 5th generation fighter, and 5th generation fighter programs from many other countries have used the F-22 as a point of comparison. Yes, as technology and tactics march on, the F-22 will no longer be benchmark, but the NGAD, or whatever comes after it. But again, this statement was qualified with "for its generation" for that very reason. Steve7c8 (talk) 00:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

In the future, please don't make unsourced changes to cited content (I'm assuming you didn't check the cited source to see if that claim was there?). Schierbecker (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• The "benchmark" claim needs to be restated in the body at the very least. The lede isn't for making new claims. I would prefer that that statement would be removed from the lede too. Schierbecker (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

While I can't speak for the original edit that added the word "unprecedented", the cited source, Aronstein, does state something similar.

The success of all four Dem/Val prototype airframe/engine combinations in achieving unprecedented performance characteristics is just one example of how effectively technical risk was managed in the ATF program.

Aronstein, Piccirillo, F-22 Raptor: Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter, page 254

Steve7c8 (talk) 15:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

No mention of: possibility of shoot down the F-22 Raptor aircraft by a Syrian missile

“According to the Oklahoman newspaper Post, citing U.S. military sources that the F-22 Raptor crashed in the north of Jordan, sources tell about the possibility of shoot down the F-22 Raptor aircraft by a Syrian missile Syrian everything and happened near the Syrian border, while a military expert John Blu Reed told the newspaper that the shoot down of the F-22 Raptor confirmation that Syria has a defense system updated the S-300, S 400 missiles or rockets, U.S. expert also stated that U.S. relations – Russia will be even more strained if it is confirmed that Russia has provided to Syria missiles S 400.

On the other hand according to reports from the United States, according to the Los Angeles Times of America, the Syrian defense forces have shot down four missiles launched by the Americans type Tomahawk, sources tell us that it was the defense systems (Pantsir-S1) anti-aircraft missiles that have made that American missiles struck, and centered in the middle, the sources of Washington state that four missiles were launched to test the degree of defense of the Syrian forces, the sources have also confirmed that one of the main reasons in stopping aggression against Syria is the overthrow of the American F-22 Raptor crashed yesterday in the north of Jordan, also also deal with the part of the Syrian air defense missiles to the four Tomahawk, remember that Jordan is still home to its territory five F-22, and this was one of the main reasons to postpone the trial of aggression against Syria.”

Link: https://www.moddb.com/groups/aircraft-lovers-group/images/syrian-air-defense-possibly-shot-down-a-f-22

Probably this information should be included in article since sources are US News papers… Calimero (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

We would need to see the actual sources before discussing this. A forum for a game modding website isn't a reliable source. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 03:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

The newspaper referred to in that post doesn't actually exist. This nonsense shouldn't be entertained. Steve7c8 (talk) 04:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Just to follow up, not sure why this nonsense hasn't been deleted or archived yet, this story was first circulated in September 2013 in some Arabic online sources, which was then machine-translated into Italian and then into English. The allegation is extremely dubious as there is no newspaper that matches the name provided, and even accounting for errors in translation, no Oklahoman news sources have ever reported anything similar to confirms these allegations; there are no articles from the LA Times regarding Tomahawk shot by Pantsir either. Additionally, there are no sources or references for a "military expert" named "John Blu Reed" (a rather laughably generic name), and there is no evidence to show that the S-300 or S-400 was deployed to Syria in the 2013 timeframe, nor is there evidence to show any F-22 deployments to Jordan at that time either. To this day, no evidence of this allegedly shootdown has been presented. In other words, Calimero is basing his assumptions on an extremely dubious report with no actual news sources to back it up and no evidence to support or verify the alleged event. The fact that people fall for this kind of nonsense is quite irritating, but this shows the pernicious effect of disinformation on the ignorant or uninformed (or those who have an agenda and want to believe anything that may support that regardless of the truth). Steve7c8 (talk) 14:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

In addition, I was able to find a source from a year earlier by reverse image searching the picture of the wreckage they have. What I found claims it was from the 1992 YF 22 crash. https://www.timetoast.com/timelines/lockheed-martin-f-22-raptor YEEETER0 (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Tail doesn't look like a F22; maybe an Iranian F14?

Wrong stabilizer shape and angle. Definitely not a Tomcat. Spartan198 (talk) 18:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)