Talk:Llŷn Peninsula

Renaming

This article was unilaterally moved by Saga City without any prior consultation here. He justifies his move by arguing that "Lleyn" is the English form etc..., but it is not, it's merely an antiquated form of the Welsh name Llŷn and no more "English" than the latter. Llŷn is certainly the form prevalent locally, in Welsh (obviously) and English. Going by Saga City's argument we should use "Caernarvon" and "Conway" rather than the accepted modern forms. I would have moved this back - as no move had been proposed it would be merely restoring the consensus situation - but unfortunately redirects block the move now and as I'm not an admin here I can't delete them. How do other contributors feel about this? Enaidmawr (talk) 00:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I fully support Enaidmawr's position on this - the prevalent name for English speakers now is Llŷn not Lleyn. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:38, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

" 21:41, 20 January 2006 RHaworth (Talk | contribs) m (moved Lleyn Peninsula to Llŷn Peninsula) (undo)"

I reverted this; the logic was as stated and I chose the most commonly-found version of the placename in this Wikipedia so as to minimise the number of redirects/links that then needed alteration. The diacritic ŷ is unknown to the English language thus making the article inaccessible. I have not, and do not intend, to alter Caernarfon or Conwy as both use English script in their titles. Saga City (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC) — PS how do you organise a 'multilateral' move?

So redirect Llyn and Lleyn to Llŷn, it's hardly a problem. -mattbuck (Talk) 13:38, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The relevant guidance is here I think. The local council for Llŷn is Gwynedd, which uses the spelling Llŷn on the English part of its bilingual website, such as here. In circumstances like this it seems clear to me that we should go with local usage, particularly as it seems evident that the anglicisation "Lleyn" is gradually dying out. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:13, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Llŷn is also the spelling used by the BBC and the majority of English-language media in Wales. It is also part of the official name of the Llŷn Coastal Path. As for the argument that accent "ŷ" is not used in English, I suggest you go to the numerous articles about people and places that rightly use the appropriate non-English accents and start moving them (well, maybe not...). Enaidmawr (talk) 20:49, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

PS You organise a "multilateral" move by stating your intent to move an article on its Talk page so that people can discuss it. You must surely have realised the move would be controversial? Enaidmawr (talk) 20:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above, namely that we should be using the proper name Llŷn, for the reasons given. Other spellings should redirect to this, if necessary. Hogyn Lleol (talk) 06:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with the above reasoning for using Llŷn. --Badgernet ^Talk 08:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

As there seems to be general agreement about restoring the title, may I suggest that the assistance of an administrator be sought to delete the redirect which prevents us from doing that? Enaidmawr (talk) 00:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done. Hope I haven't stepped on anybody's toes. :S --Jza84 |  Talk  11:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I can't find an IPA pronunciation for Llŷn, to be added in to the article. Can anyone help? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Not really, I'm not clever enough to explain sounds that don't exist in the English language through the medium of text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.87.42 (talk) 11:57, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Could somebody put a (preferably IPA) pronunciation for the anglicized form "Lleyn"? What is, or was, the traditional pronuciation of this in English, even if it's only of historical interest? I've asked several of my Welsh teachers about this, and they have no idea. GeckoFeet (talk) 17:15, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I've heard it rhyming both with "lane" and "clean". Would guess the latter is more correct, as it rhymes with the Welsh. Vashti (talk) 21:24, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

2001 census and Housing

Although I am sympathetic to the arguments presented under this heading, I cannot help feeling that the section is not encyclopedic. There is room for mentioning the tensions due to rising house prices and outsiders coming into the area, but the existing detailed and possibly unilateral presentation should be reduced to a couple of sentences. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 00:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. "The rise in home prices outpaced the average earnings income in Wales and meant that many local people could not afford to purchase their first home.... In 2001 nearly a third of all properties in Gwynedd were bought by buyers from out of the county". This must also be true of most counties in England, it is not specific to the Llŷn Peninsula. Maproom (talk) 10:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the section should be rewritten in a more balanced and enyclopaedic way, but clearly this is an important issue and the focus of much local concern, and the article should reflect that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Ditto User:Ghmyrtle's comments above. Yes, let's not forget that although this is a nationwide trend, its effect on some of the cultural elements of an area like Llŷn is perhaps different/greater to that of some other areas of Britain. Hogyn Lleol (talk) 10:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Its a real issue for the Llŷn as well as Ynys Môn where I think it is more extreme. While the same problem exists in Cumbria, the Cotswolds and elsewhere it is not as extreme and does not involve issues of language. The social implications are hure - as I remember it, the Moelfre lifeboat has issues to to retirement and holiday cottages driving local fishermen away from the port and I can imagine similar stories on the Llŷn. I wonder if this should be a separate section, or possible an article which is then referenced? --Snowded (talk) 10:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

"This must also be true of most counties in England, it is not specific to the Llŷn Peninsula." Maybe so (although I doubt that is the case for most English counties), but the difference is that if incomers - mainly from other parts of England - were to "take over" Cumbria and reduce the locals to a small minority it would be a great shame but it would not threaten the future of the language and culture of England. Were the same thing to happen in Llŷn and other Welsh heartlands the effect would be nothing short of catastrophic for our national language and culture - as well as the local people and their way of life - and that is why it is such a burning issue in Wales. Having said that, the section definitely needs tidying up according to the usual wikipedia standards. Enaidmawr (talk) 01:09, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

While I fully agree with you Enaidmawr can I suggest that "burning" may not the best word to use? --Snowded (talk) 08:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Since this section has grown dis-proportionately to the rest of the article and is also repeated word for word in the Gwynedd article, I suggest that this political debate be moved to its own article. I am merging this section with Housing market crisis in the United Kingdom (2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fluidhomefront (talk • contribs) 07:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, it was good of you to discuss that here first, wasn't it? I've reverted your edits and suggest you wait to get the response of other editors before engaging in such a draconian move. And the title of the article you moved this to is just not right - Welsh Housing Crisis (2008) - as this crisis has been ongoing for about twenty years. You call it "this political debate", but I can't help wondering just what your political motives might be. Cutting down the text to a one-liner with a link to a misleadingly-titled page is just not good enough. Enaidmawr (talk) 16:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Apologies for the abrupt edit; I was following the Be bold guideline when I spotted a section that has drifted from the Wikipedia:Summary style and contains redundant information. I can see that the Residential property market in the United Kingdom and the Welsh_language are important issues in Gwynedd and the Llŷn Peninsula and this certainly deserves an encyclopedic mention. However, a 13 paragraph essay is not encyclopedic style.

I agree that property prices are one of many influences on the number of Welsh language speakers in the regions of Gwynedd and the Llŷn Peninsula and I think this point should be made in the Welsh language article.

The title of this section includes the topics of 2001 census and Housing, referring to housing prices in a region of the United Kingdom. The article then relates Residential property market in the United Kingdom and the Welsh_language. The article is not a discussion of the 2001 census although it does reference the census. Hence, the title does not describe the content of the section. I suggest the sub-section title be changed to House Prices or Decline of the Welsh language in the region and that the article be summarised and wikified appropriately. However, it would then be a small step from these minor wikifications to summarising the points made into the relevant articles.

In reference to your comment on my political motives, I empathize with the issue of Residential property market in the United Kingdom and I am saving toward a deposit so that I can buy my first home. I also would love to be able to live and work in my home region, however I have had to move to find work. I look forward to discussing these suggested changes further. Fluidhomefront (talk) 16:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done. I have made the changes as I suggested last week as the changes seem to be inline with Wikipedia guidelines. The earlier comments by Ghmyrtle and Augusta2 made on this talk page support the changes. I'd be happy to discuss this further.Fluidhomefront (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

This is just not acceptable. Whilst I would agree that the text on the subject both here and in the Gwynedd article needs revising as it's not as coherent as it should be, the subject itself is entirely appropriate to this article, and the Gwynedd one as well. Your proposal would in effect excise the topic from these two articles and bury it in an already long article on the Welsh language and an obscure new article that few people are likely to look for or read. Read some of the comments above by people who care about the future of the Welsh language and you will at least have an intimation of how big an issue this is, especially in Llŷn. The issue is dealt with in the article on Wales itself; if we were to follow your line of reasoning it would be conveniently excised (censored) from there as well. I'd not replied before to the previous post as I'd hoped somebody else might see this and comment. I shall bring the issue to the attention of the Wales wikipedia project so that other people's views can be heard. Please refrain from any move(s) or further edits here until this matter is discussed and resolved. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:13, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I endorse Enaidmawr's comments and totally dissociate myself from Fluidhomefront's attempts to associate me with his/her proposals. This article needs a complete rewrite, but attempting to split off largely relevant (but poorly written) sections to spurious and unnecessary new articles (which themselves should, in my view, be deleted) is not the way to go about it. There is a specific set of issues relating to the use of (and decline in) the Welsh language in Llŷn, and its relationship with English-speaking migrants and the property market. That section should be in this article, and the relevant sections of this article need to be rewritten to do it proper justice. When I can devote more time to it I will do so. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:31, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

First attempt now done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

More edits done. As the referenced material refers to Gwynedd, rather than Llŷn, I've taken it out of this article but added a link stating that further info on the controversy is at Gwynedd - which seems to me to be the appropriate solution. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

As I said before, I agree that this is an important issue in the region and deserves mention in this article. However, it does not make sense to duplicate information across multiple articles in an encyclopaedia. Large scale duplication and redundancy of content indicate that you are talking about a separate topic deserved of its own article. Creating a new article to discuss the Welsh Housing Crisis or the Welsh Language and their relation should not detract from the issue if you link to the article appropriately.

As a compromise can I suggest that you make use of the Transclusion feature so that the content does not become branched. Transclusion is generally not advised for the reasons I have outlined, but if you insist on duplicating content it is better than the hand-cranked method used so far. Fluidhomefront (talk) 11:38, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The position now is that there are no major overlaps, with the exception of the new article created by Fluidhomefront - which I suggest should be subject to a substantial rewrite and expansion, as Housing in Wales. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. As for "duplicating content", a certain amount is inevitable in order to provide context and examples can be found throughout this Wikipedia edition. I'm happy with the work done on the two articles, Gwynedd and Llŷn, by Ghmyrtle. If further material is found it can be added where appropriate. Salvaging the new article and turning it into 'Housing in Wales' would be the logical next step, as Ghmyrtle suggests; that does not preclude the possible addition of appropriate material to the Gwynedd and Llŷn articles. I sincerely hope that settles the issue. Enaidmawr (talk) 20:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Just an FYI, these sections on the language and housing prices are what I wrote in the Language and Housing Controversy of the History of Plaid Cymru page, though edited it seems. Read that section for greater context. In that section, I attempted to keep the text of the artical specific to the sources, thus the illustration of Llyn and Gwynedd. There really should be an artical on Housing in Wales, which could touch on both language, second home ownership, gentrification, and housing prices. ♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 05:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The Map

I have edited the map so as to get its aspect ratio right. It seems that this has not taken effect yet - either I have uploaded it wrong, or the change takes a while to propagate from wikimedia commons. Maproom (talk) 15:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The edit has at last taken effect, at least for me. I wonder where the delay is. Maproom (talk) 18:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

In response to a request from Enaidmawr I have changed the text on the map from "Lleyn Peninsula" to "Llŷn peninsula". It may be a day or two before this change propagates through. Maproom (talk) 22:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks for doing this, Maproom, and so quickly at that! I was doing some work over on cy: when I saw your upload of the corrected aspect ratio map over there as well. Diolch yn fawr i chi am eich gwaith caled (Thank you very much for your hard work). Enaidmawr (talk) 22:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Restructuring

As the article had grown the intro had become somewhat unwieldy. I have therefore separated out the material regarding the name into an 'etymology' section and put other material into existing sections and a new one on geology which can yet be expanded. There is a case for re-ordering the sections to make the whole article flow better - not least by more closely linkingthe geology and geography. By the way Bardsey/Ynys Enlli is briefly described under 'geography' but has the island ever been considered a part of Llŷn? cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, am I the only one who finds the 'list of former civil parishes', at least as currently set out as an image-adorned table, somewhat obtrusive? It presently serves to break up the article awkwardly. cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Have now restructured it a little more and added some content. There are various items currently with 'history' which could equally be found under 'economy'. I hope it is now a little easier to navigate around. I loosely used the wiki guidelines intended for counties, being unaware of guidelines for an area such as Llŷn - if anyone can do better - please do! cheers Geopersona (talk) 07:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

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