Talk:List of public libraries in Delaware County, Pennsylvania

Note

This list, for public libraries in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, was created by User:Smallbones as a test/demonstration list-article, drafting it to possibly serve as model for many more library list-articles. Is this the right place to discuss formatting and content for this? I know Smallbones is planning to make announcements at WikiProject Libraries and perhaps elsewhere soon, and this could be announced as a central discussion location. --doncram 17:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Scope

Should it be public libraries or all libraries, so as to include notable private ones, if there are any? I would think using broader name (and shorter title) would be better, even though often/usually all the ones covered will be public libraries. Of course even a list labelled "public libraries of X county" can still mention private ones, but I think it works better if the name is simpler and covers the others. If there are relatively few notable private libraries in a given state, those can be covered in a statewide list of the private libraries alone, as well as their being covered in the various separate county lists. Hmm, what are any examples of private libraries to be covered, anywhere? Hmm, I recall mention by an editor of a Masonic library in New York City where the editor went to research about some Masonic buildings, and related to that then later it turned out there was a notable Masonic library in Iowa (Iowa Masonic Library and Museum and another in Massachusetts ( Scottish Rite Masonic Museum & Library ). They are perhaps technically private, but also might be open upon request. Perhaps what is "public" vs. what is "private" is not always definable, too. There may be organized libraries at art museums and national institutes and so on which might be worth mentioning in lists. There are some highly notable very old libraries in monasteries or churches in various European and North African countries that I recall reading about. Perhaps there is a significant library at the national headquarters of almost any church organization. --doncram 17:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Library at Cheyney University of Pennsylvania (pic by User:Smallbones)

What about university libraries? I think libraries within high schools can be excluded as not at all open to the public, and having very little information known about them. But the size of library collections of university libraries is usually very public, and they are major public resources, usually open to the public. In Delaware County, the Swarthmore College article includes a section on the apparently notable Friends Historical Library, and it includes mention of three "main libraries" (one of which, the McCabe Library, is a Federal Depository Library) and seven "other specialized collections". I suggest including the main library at least, with its description mentioning existence of other campus libraries and collections, and allowing rows to be added for other campus libraries and collections if there is factual info about them that anyone cares to develop.

Offhand, I think a comprehensive list of all the libraries potentially available to the public in a given area would be very useful, very "encyclopedic". Per the Delaware County, Pennsylvania article there are apparently 14 universities/colleges/community colleges/trade schools in the county, why not allow mention of their libraries? (Note the county article has a "Libraries" section which seems to be a list of just the regular public libraries, with no source, possibly incomplete, is to be replaced by a link to this list-article.) --doncram 18:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Also defunct/former/historic libraries can be covered, IMO, consistent with treatment of former/demolished historic sites in NRHP lists. --doncram 18:23, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

All of the above has possibilities, but it also can make the project more complicated. It deserves a good discussion. By just using public libraries we have a pretty easy cutoff criterion. Public library is usually defined as publicly (govt) funded and open to the public with circulating books.

Perhaps the easiest cutoff would come from just taking a specific database as gospel. There are at least 2

• https://www.lib-web.org/united-states/
• http://www.publiclibraries.com/pennsylvania.htm
• https://librarytechnology.org/libraries/public.pl?State=Pennsylvania (some of these might be repeats)

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:52, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Founded column

Hey, i am not sure if there should be a separate column for "founded". The column has a lot of white space and I think it would be better to drop it. For many branch libraries which get separate rows, there may be no founding date which applies, or the relevant one is the founding date for the original main library in a city/town/county. Repeating one library's date in many separate branch locations might be misleading, or is manufacturing something. I currently think that mentioning the founding date, where it is known, in the "Description" column suffices, and is better. My opinion is based just on how the current list appears, where there are some branch libraries already, and where the "Founded" column is relatively wide (wider than "Built" column) and has a lot of white space which I would prefer to avoid. What do you think? --doncram 17:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

pic needed

Name	Image	Founded	Built	Location	Description
Media-Upper Providence Free Library				1 E. Front Street, Media 39.9190°N 75.3889°W / 39.9190; -75.3889 (Media Free Library)
Prospect Park Free Library				720 Maryland Ave., Prospect Park 39.8881°N 75.3084°W / 39.8881; -75.3084 (Prospect Park Free Library)
Rachel Kohl Community Library				687 Smithbridge Road, Glen Mills 39.8673°N 75.5133°W / 39.8673; -75.5133 (Radnor Memorial Library)
Upper Darby Township/Sellers Library – Main Sellers Branch				76 South State Rd., Upper Darby 39.9623°N 75.2733°W / 39.9623; -75.2733 (Main Sellers Branch Library)
Upper Darby Township/Sellers Library – Municipal Branch				501 Bywood Ave., Upper Darby 39.9592°N 75.2665°W / 39.9592; -75.2665 (Sellers Municipal Branch Library)

Pointless

Lists are easy to make, which I guess is one reason why they are popular for people who can't write proper articles and/or can only write to a formula. But we're not a directory and we're not a tourist guide, so any list of libraries should at best be limited to those which are clearly notable, which probably means they would be another example of (fundamentally) mirroring a category in a list but with added photos etc.

WP:WTAF probably should apply. We don't want a whole new spew of tens of thousands of crappy, rarely maintained pages of dubious notability and that will cause the same series of arguments as have gone on ad infinitum with schools and be subject to similar amounts of drive-by vandalism. In my experience, list creators rarely go on to monitor their work because, well, they're so throwaway (the lists, not the creators!). - Sitush (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

This isn't about creating an article for each library, it's about creating a list of libraries. The libraries as a group and some of the individual libraries are totally notable. WP:WTAF is an essay and IMHO does not apply. If you want to follow your logic we'd have to get rid of articles like List of museums in New Jersey and countless other lists. If you want to just gut the list, I'd prefer you take it to AfD instead. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:31, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, perhaps we should get rid of the list of museums in New Jersey. Create articles, then add to lists. There is no need to take this to AfD because notable libraries can be listed and indeed are listed. - Sitush (talk) 14:33, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

It is no different to our lists of notable people etc. And, by the way, you and Doncram were bold in creating this thing and I reverted a lot of it. You should not have re-reverted. - Sitush (talk) 14:39, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Notability#Stand-alone_lists and Wikipedia:Stand-alone_lists#Common_selection_criteria. And please stop reverting, you'll just run into 3RR problems. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:09, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

You are the one who is edit warring and you are going to be reported for it. - Sitush (talk) 15:10, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

And note although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles.. I'm limiting it, just as lists of people etc are limited. - Sitush (talk) 15:11, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

And a further note: I am not prepared to see the system gamed. I deliberately left it for a while after posting my original comment in this section. When I saw that you were editing over a period of several days but had not replied, it was reasonable to assume that you did not object. Since you were bold in adding the stuff in the first place, and I was prompt in raising the issue, I am not at fault here. - Sitush (talk) 15:47, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

See, you are gaming the system, as I expected that you would. Just like the policing of Jimbo's talk page, you are too much of a lawyer. - Sitush (talk) 10:18, 27 September 2017 (UTC)