Talk:List of operettas by Jacques Offenbach

Compositions by Offenbach

I am working on the main Jacques Offenbach article (backstage at the moment) to get it up to FAC standard. The list of non-operetta works will need to be hived off from the main article. Does anyone object to adding it to this article (renaming accordingly)? It seems unhelpful to our readers to have two separate sub-articles of Offenbach works, i.e. (i) operettas and (ii) everything else. Most grateful for views. Tim riley (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree - there is no reason to have more than one Offenbach "Works" or "Compositions" sub-article. I recommend adding the other Offenbach works here and renaming this Article "List of Works [or Compositions] by Offenbach". -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:09, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Go for it. IMO all composers should have a single list, especially if done in a nice sortable table (like in Dvorak for instance). Unfortunetly various people have decided that operas and/for piano works, especially, should be separated out (or were made before the 'big' list). Incidently, I'm curious about your sources for the list you're going to use? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:14, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

There are lots of articles entitled "List of compositions by ....", and quite a few of them (e.g. List of compositions by Vivaldi) don't list operas but provide a link to "List of operas by ...". It would be nice if there could be some agreement on a common format, but I'm not sure that this talk page is the right place for it. --GuillaumeTell 18:09, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

A very fair point. Happy to air the question more widely. Can you think of a suitable forum? Tim riley (talk) 19:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Either WP:CLASSICAL or WP:COMPOSERS, as the compositions task force is basically defunct...but I'm not sure which would be better really. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

It should certainly be raised at WP:WPO, since the lists of operas by ... were compiled by past and current members of the Project. See Category:Lists of operas by composer for the list of lists, and, as well, the list of lists of lists at Category:Lists of compositions by composer. --GuillaumeTell 20:32, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, shall post the also rans separately pro tem and consult the Norns when I have put the main article to bed. Both the existing list of non-operetta works and the separate list of operettas are woefully short of references, I see. Tim riley (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't involved in the list of operettas, but it undoubtedly comes from Andrew Lamb's article in the New Grove Dictionary of Opera, Vol 3, pp.655-8, referenced rather inelegantly at the bottom. I assume that refs 1 and 2 are additions or corrections from other sources. --GuillaumeTell 20:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. The list is indeed from Andrew Lamb's article in the New Grove Dictionary of Opera. Regarding Tim riley's assertion that it is "woefully short of references". I should point out that many of the works are the subject of articles and are referenced on specific pages. That's the way WP lists work — It would be ludicrous to carry over all the links to the list page. --Kleinzach 06:18, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

If you look at Category:Lists of operas by composer (68 pages) you will see that there are alternative ways of defining these lists, i.e. '"List of operas by . . .", '"List of operettas by . . .", "List of operas and operettas by . . .", "List of works for the stage by . . . ", even "List of stage and broadcast works by . . . " so there is precedent for enlarging the scope of the list. I would be against changing this to a "List of compositions by . . . .". I don't think that's practical because of formatting, depth of information etc. and it would be against the way we have treated 67 other composers. --Kleinzach 06:18, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

sorting in the librettist column

Is there a reference for 'Pittaud de Forges' not being the surname - ie under P, not F? Yon gives Pittaud de Forges, Philippe, 1805-1881. Thanks. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I just went by the seat of my pants. Now corrected here and in List of operas and operettas by Delibes. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference format

References for all 68 pages in Category:Lists of operas by composer go in the reference section at the foot of the article. If anyone disagrees with this and wants to propose a global change, then the best place to discuss it would probably be WP:WPO. Thank you. --Kleinzach 07:32, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Cigarette

I am 'interested' in this piece 'Cigarette' with words by G D'Arcy. It appears that Gammond is the only person who includes it in the works of Offenbach. It is not in Grove (I only have the 1997 edition, which is after the Gammond book), and I cannot find it listed in the Offenbach Edition Keck and the appendix to Yon's book on Offenbach. I am not great at searching the internet, but there is not much about either the work or the librettist. This page says it is an arrangement [1] in one act, and there appears to be an entry on page 336, volume V of the History of English Drama 1660-1900 by Allardyce Nicoll (not viewable). There may of course be other mentions which I have missed. Perhaps it should go to a footnote while it can be verified as genuine or just a pastiche or arrangement. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:56, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Your linked page seems to confirm that it is some kind of pastiche. I guess we don't know whether Offenbach was involved in creating it or not. Do we know how these sorts of works are treated by the catalogers? I seem to remember there are lots of similar examples. Are they listed anywhere on Wikipedia or do we just ignore them? --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:58, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like it may have been a type of revue, possibly something like Sondheim's Putting It Together, which used music from other shows to tell a new story. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am a bit suspicious that is what it was - or it was one of his real works but with the names all changed. I wish I could find some information on it and whether Offenbach even knew about it. And I think there are other examples, although I don't have them immediately to hand. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:36, 7 September 2011 (UTC) Les Hannetons is an example (called revue de printemps), although Yon says Offenbach wrote two new songs to go with the 30 'old' ones. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I have found a note in the Gänzl ‘Encyclopedia of Musical Theatre’ [article on Jacques Offenbach]: "The English-speaking theatre, which made merry pasticcio with the composer's music in the 1860s and 1870s, to the extent of inventing a handful of Offenbach opérettes to texts the composer had never seen" - he also lists some Viennese examples. I think Cigarette should be deleted or moved to a footnote until more sources support it. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:32, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree Cigarette should probably not be in the main list of original works, but it may not be a good idea to delete it entirely, since this info is documented, and the question will probably come up again. The links you found, and Gänzl's information could be combined into something somewhere, which deals with this phenomenon. I'm not sure where or how we should add it though. Maybe a short section at the bottom of this page which specifically discusses these two works and Gänzl's information and explains why they are not in the main list. If we had more, I suppose we could even have a short table of these "semi-apocryphal" revue-type works. (New Grove Opera often lists works which are of doubtful attribution at the bottom. Although this is not exactly the same, it is a similar type of category.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:36, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

(Also there is a modern example I had forgotten: Christopher Columbus, recorded in London in 1977 by Opera Rara [2]) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

That's a good one! We should definitely include it as well. (Tacoma Opera mentions it, but the link is wrong. It should be red.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 06:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you know anything about Forty Winks? ([3]) Update: it's the English version of Une nuit blanche). --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Here are two I haven't figured out yet: Blush Rose (also D'Arcy) and The Barber of Bath (Farnie). There's also Farnie's version of Dick Whittington and His Cat. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:44, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I looked up Cigarette in the British Library 19th century newspaper archive today: this is what The Era (17 Sept 1862, p. 13) said: "... a little operetta by Offenbach, written by Mr. G D'Arcy, and entitled Cigarette. The operetta is of a very slight character, turning on the adventures of a young scapegrace who falls in love with an opera singer and forces her to listen to his proposals by climbing her balcony, then locking the door and throwing the keys out of the window. The lady, at first obdurate, soon relents, and all ends happily. ... the musical portion does not reveal Offenbach's ability at its brightest, although in places there was the familiar sparkle and vivacity of the composer of The Grand Duchess." That reads to me more like an adaptation of an existing show rather than a compilation. Does the story ring any bells as an Offenbach one-acter? Tim riley (talk) 15:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

date order

I don't understand why

• La permission de dix heures
• Robinson Crusoé
• La leçon de chant électromagnétique

are not in date order ...?

and these also:

• Le rêve d'une nuit d'été
• Oyayaye, ou La reine des îles

-

• Monsieur et Madame Denis
• Bavard et bavarde (Les bavards)

Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

You have to consult the article's history. On 19 November 2009, Les bavards was listed as 20 February 1862; Oyayaye as 7 August 1855. The former was probably a mistake but the table position was never adjusted to fit the corrected date. I don't know why the latter was changed. On the other hand, the wrong table position for La leçon de chant électromagnétique seems to be an error going back to when dates more detailed than just years where introduced in January 2009. I suggest to correct the table positions accordingly. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I have made some changes, but I had thought the columns were self-sorting, Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:58, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

They almost never are. Titles need to be adjusted for definite and indefinite articles; names need to be rearranged as surname, first name; and irregular dates needs to be normalised. Other columns, e.g. Subdivisions or Place, may also need adjustments. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:47, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

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