Talk:List of ongoing armed conflicts/Archive 12

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Archive 12

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2023

From the section at List of ongoing armed conflicts#Skirmishes and clashes (fewer than 100 combat-related deaths in current or past year) please remove the entry for "Dissident Irish republican campaign". The single death cited for 2022 (which is needed for inclusion on this list) is of a career criminal being killed by a criminal gang for criminal reasons, none of which have anything to do with dissident Irish republicans, and the cited source nor others on the story make no such connection whatsoever. Discussion thread relating to this at Talk:Dissident Irish republican campaign#Loyalists, casualties and Liam Christie, and I further note that the Dissident Irish republican campaign contains no mention at all of the Liam Christie murder, for the obvious reason that it is nothing to do with the topic. Kathleen's bike (talk) 14:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done. HappyWith (talk) 16:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Further to this and the attempt to add it with a different murder, what the PSNI said in an expanded version of their statement is It is also now our assessment the murders were carried out by an organised group of criminals who operate like terrorists and who may be, or have been, members of terrorist organisations. That's not the same as it being part of the dissident campaign. Kathleen's bike (talk) 15:04, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

It is frustrating this discussion, and the related one at the dissdent article, are being ignored. The objection to the addition is twofold.

Firstly, when the PSNI are quoted in full (which the unreliable Sunday World did not do) they say It is also now our assessment the murders were carried out by an organised group of criminals who operate like terrorists and who may be, or have been, members of terrorist organisations. An "organised group of criminals" who may be, or more crucially may have been previously, members of "terrorist organisations" is a substantially different kettle of fish than the killings being part of the dissident republican campaign, which is presumably why there's no mention at all of these in the Dissident Irish republican campaign article.

Even once that first hurdle is cleared, there have not been 100+ deaths caused by the dissident campaign, this is a fantasy figure caused by misinterpretation of primary source data (see titles of claimed sources in footnotes 143 to 147), which is against policy. Like the first part of the objection, there are no mention of 100+ deaths in the Dissident Irish republican campaign article, for the simple reason that the dissidents haven't killed 100+ people.

I would suggest anyone wishing to add contradictory, and in reality completely false, information to this article first goes to the Dissident Irish republican campaign article and adds properly sourced information there. Kathleen's bike (talk) 17:40, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

To demonstrate the pitfalls of interpreting source data, I see 1999 (see footnote 144 from link in post above) has been used to get to the figure of 100+. Eamon Collins was not killed by dissident republicans. Paul Downey was suspected of being killed by the Provisional IRA. Brendan Fegan is difficult, for a long time it was suspected he was killed by the Provisional IRA, but in 2007 it was revealed it might have been the Real IRA. Charles Bennett was killed by the Provisional IRA. So it is not as simple as saying all republican killings since 1998 were by dissidents. Even if such an approach wasn't against policy, am I really expected to believe that every single death attributed by CAIN to a "non-specific Republican group (REP)" has been investigated by the editor making the addition to determine which were by dissidents and which were not? Kathleen's bike (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2023

Please reverse this disputed (and incorrect) edit. See the discussion relating to this at Talk:Dissident Irish republican campaign#Loyalists, casualties and Liam Christie. Kathleen's bike (talk) 17:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done MorteBiancaFan has been blocked for abusing multiple accounts. M.Bitton (talk) 20:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Removing fewer than 100 deaths

Most countries have much more than 100 normal crime of murders happening every year. Total 107 out of 195 countries have murder count of more than 100 an year. 38 countries have more than 1000 murders per year. See List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate. So better to remove below 100 section and also yellow colour from the map. It misleads people otherwise. Crashed greek (talk) 09:40, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

But these deaths include only deaths that are "battle-related", "combat-related". Criminal murders (unless they are part of an armed conflict) are not included.--Oloddin (talk) 21:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

If you see Mexican organized crime with much higher deaths, it is more like the murders between different gangs. Not exactly battle combat. Crashed greek (talk) 07:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

The article says that "This is not a list of countries by intentional homicide rate, and criminal gang violence is generally not included unless there is also significant military or paramilitary involvement", so I can assume that these figures include only deaths from clashes between the gangs and the Mexican military and not from clashes between one gang and another. Anyway in the context of the article I think it's understandable that these deaths include only deaths that are related to exact conflict, at least are supposed to include.--Oloddin (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Gang wars in different countries, Sweden for example, should be in this list

As titled 176.72.33.215 (talk) 11:06, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Per criteria: "...criminal gang violence is generally not included unless there is also significant military or paramilitary involvement." Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 11:08, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Russo-Ukrainian war fatalities

The fatality figures follow the Russian propaganda and totally contradict all the other sources, even all the cited ones. Most reliable sources estimate Ukrainian fatalities at 100K, not 350K The Russian losses are mostly estimated at 150-220K, not 100K

It makes sense to verify the figures and lock the article. 2001:A61:27BB:B501:D576:FAE2:79DD:943E (talk) 16:42, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

✔️Done DitorWiki (talk) 11:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Moro conflict

This article says the Moro conflict is ongoing, but the Moro conflict page says it ended in 2019. Which is correct? -184.56.75.144 (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Already done DitorWiki (talk) 11:03, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Major Wars

Ethiopia shall be removed from major Wars as there is very little conflict there compared to before DitorWiki (talk) 10:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the classification for "major war" also includes > a certain amount of deaths in the previous year, which Ethiopia did. -184.56.75.144 (talk) 08:07, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

According to the same page Eithiopia has suffered 1,042 in fatalities in 2023 which is much lesser than the major Wars casualty mark (10,000) DitorWiki (talk) 03:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes but major war classification also factors in the past year, which could have more than 100,000 deaths. -184.56.75.144 (talk) 02:19, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Any ground for depicting Nigeria in deep crimson?

So the color is applied when the country sees at least 10,000 fatalities in a given calendar year. So far it seems the death toll for Nigeria in 2023 is not even two thirds of that figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller (talk • contribs) 08:17, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Add Sweden's explosion of gang related killings, which now inolves the military?

The growing number of gang related killings in Sweden has now made the government involve the military to assist the police. 178.174.131.178 (talk) 15:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Is there a wiki article about a conflict or crackdown between Sweden and the Gangs because we would need one, and it probably should look like the ones used for the Salvadoran gang crackdown and the Gang war in Haiti, where it shows Belligerents, Commanders and leaders, as well as Casualties and loses also remember Listed conflicts have at least 100 cumulative deaths in total and at least 1 death in current or in the past calendar year if so we might be able to include it. HuntersHistory (talk) 04:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Or if there is not one, you or someone else could make it, so we might be able to include it. HuntersHistory (talk) 04:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@178.174.131.178 sorry if I am spamming you. HuntersHistory (talk) 04:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Serbia - Kosovo

There were some killings in past few months, so it should be also added to the list.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.3.199 (talk)

(Sub-sections combined)

Sorry for creating another reply but I couldn’t reply to the first Does that have at least 100 cumulative deaths in total and at least 1 death in current or in the past calendar year if so it should be included. HuntersHistory (talk) 13:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@93.139.3.199 HuntersHistory (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Mexican Drug War totals do not tie to deaths by country table

The deaths by country table has totals for Mexico 2018-2022 that, on their own, exceed the cumulative fatalities shown for the Mexican Drug War conflict under the Major Wars section, which supposedly tallies years 2006 to present. Per the deaths by country table, the total fatalities in Mexico 2018-2022 alone are almost double those shown in the Major Wars section. As well as being inconsistent, this would lead one to believe the cumulative total shown in the Major Wars section might be significantly understated when accounting for years prior to 2018. 99.140.59.60 (talk) 15:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Coloring of Israel and Palestine

At what point do you color Israel and Palestine dark red? Kk.urban (talk) 17:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Immediately, unfortunately the total death toll on both sides has surpassed 10,000. 62.240.62.184 (talk) 23:52, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa

It is a war now. I suggest someone with authority transfer this conflict into the "Wars" section. Gorgedweller (talk) 16:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I have transferred it to the war section thanks for the comment. HuntersHistory (talk) 18:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

2023 Israel–Hamas war

I think including numbers from the active war is problematic, becuase of the sources that can provide those numbers. The "Palestinian Health Ministry" is another name of Hamas, which control the Gaza strip. The problem with that arises when we look at its motives and history: 1. Hamas, before anything else, is a terrorist organization. It's recognized as such by (as of currently): Israel (of course), USA, Australia, UK, EU (27 nations), Canada, Japan, Paraguay and the Organization of American States (35 nations). Hamas officials claimed themselves several times that their intentions are to kill Israeli Civilians (some even claimed that a part of their goal is to rape Israeli women). Even without statements, the fact that they sent hundreds of terror attacks at Israel should be sufficient, with the 7/10 massacare being only one of the never-ending list (the intifadas, 2016, 2017, even the spring of 2023 are great examples).

2. The motive of Hammas is blowing up the numbers of casualties to hurt Israel's image. This motive is best shown by their choice of bases and rocket-shooting sites - civilian houses, hospitals, schools, kindergartens, mosques, cemeteries, etc. Even their headquarters was recently revealed to be below the Shifa hospital, the largest hospital in the Gaza strip. Since they're currently the only source on deaths on the Gazan side, and they didn't provide any evidence for their claims, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

3. Hamas has an history of lying about casualties. from irrelevnt lies such as catorizing terrorists and hamas officials as "civilians" (this is irelevent since the idendity of casualties isn't important for this article), and to more relevant ones such as the Al Ahli hospital incident. Without going into question of "who did it" (altough Israel provided multiple kinds of evidence), Hamas claimed at first that 500+ people had been killed, and later updated the number to 471. This thing is, EU investigation showed that a more likely number is between 10 to 50 people. This wasn't the only lie in this incident (again, without "who did it"), photos of the hospital after the incident shows that the car park is the thing that got hit, and the surrounding building haven't suffered much damage. Other lies are by Gazan reporters, such as a clip of a female reporter saying that "at least 10 babies were beheaded" in a scene of an air-strike attack. This isn't an official claim, but with how Hamas is known to throw reporters into jail, it must be supported by them (there's no free media in Gaza).

And to top it all of, the current claim is 7,000 casualties in Gaza and 1,400 in Israel, for a total of 8,400, lower than 10,000. There wasn't a single year in history, as of today (it might and probablly will change in a few days, and then these arguments are mostly useless), that the conflict had more than 10,000 death annually.

Oh, and in the "d" reference, the wording should be changed to "1,000 terrorists", as I explained in point 1. Calling people who went into civilian houses and murders, beheaded, raped, tortured, cut-off limbs off, set aflame to, violated and paraded bodies of more than 1,000 civilians (and some more IDF soldiers and Israeli police officers) "militants" is a disgrace to western values. The number is also 1,500 terrorists on Israeli territory, but oh well. Shisoy (talk) 22:31, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Can everyone paint Israel and Palestinian territories in dark red on map (the war exceeded 10,000 casulties). 89.164.158.61 (talk) 08:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Israel-Hamas war numbers

...Are incorrect. The lower number includes 1000 Hamas militants killed inside Israel, while the higher number for some reason includes the same number twice. Both figures should be 1000 deaths lower. Gorgedweller (talk) 15:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2023

Israel and Palestine needs to be included in Major Wars category because unfortunately the dead civilians in Israel-Hamas war passed 10.000 and more than 10.000 death means major war! DTDeniz (talk) 05:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

@Clyde H. Mapping Do you think this should be updated? Kk.urban (talk) 21:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the article, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is already in the "major wars" section. If you mean the map, I will request an overwrite exception on Commons to update it. Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 21:41, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The map should be updated, because Angola and Lebanon should also be Orange. HuntersHistory (talk) 00:13, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

North Korea is yellow on map, but not South Korea

I'm curious why North Korea is colored on the map but not South Korea when the war is between both.

Philologick (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The map represents combat-related deaths due to conflict. In the current/past calendar year, only North Korea has suffered casualties as a result of the Korean conflict, so South Korea is not colored. Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 22:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Updated numbers without updated sources.

Just spotted an edit that updated numbers but no new sources. This happens frequently and requires close supervision (which I do not do). I suspect that many numbers are unsupported by referenced sources. Just wanted to note the problem. User-duck (talk) 21:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean? In any case I should note that the ACLED source is updating the numbers regularly, so it's natural to update the numbers in the article according to it. But you can always present another sources as well. Oloddin (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Only one of the numbers sourced ACLED. If ACLED is the source, the access-date should be updated. The two other number changes have no new source. User-duck (talk) 05:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Sudan war casualties

Something weird happened with Sudanese casualties of 2023. I could swear I saw ACLED report of late November claiming that the number of fatalities in Sudan since year start was above 12,000. But since December 1 fatalities suddenly dropped to around 10,000. Is this a common occurence with ACLED? Do they revise their assessments often? And what should we do about the figure in question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller (talk • contribs) 08:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

They often revise the number of casualties they present, based on the latest developments reported from the field, so it is common. Same thing happened with the total number of casualties last year as well, we should just spot these changes and make the necessary edits. Whitesin21 (talk) 14:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Someone needs to update the map I think

I don't think Syria, Yemen, and Ethiopia should be dark red, and I'm less educated on the conflicts in Nigeria and Burkina Faso but dark red doesn't seem right either Adraria (talk) 17:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

ACLED will publish its first 2024 numbers on 8 or 9 January, after which the map should be updated from 2022-2023 data to 2023-2024 data. Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 21:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

For now I have updated the map to just reflect what is available of last year's data (up until early December). Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 04:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Why are data for Ukraine so low in 2023 and unclear in 2022?

The figure of 100,000 comes from ? It is also unknown where the deaths for 2023 were underestimated to 30,000 Everyone’s estimates of the dead are different, but if you start adding minimally confirmed (obviously several times lower than the real) data on the dead to the table, then 30 thousand in 2023 is a figure that does not correspond to reality Because the BBC and Mediazona counted 24,100 documented deaths this year and the UN - 2 thousand civilian deaths At the same time, 4 thousand Ukrainian soldiers could not die in one year. Moreover, according to data on documented dead Ukrainian soldiers, the total number now is about 40 thousand. Did 90% really die in a shorter period of fighting? 2022? I’m posting a link to the documentation of Ukrainian Armed Forces losses; for the Russian military this is the BBC and Mediazona https://ualosses.org/soldiers/ 88.154.42.32 (talk) 12:37, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on the page

Could this page maybe not include just armed conflicts, but ongoing protests and strikes? Lukt64 (talk) 21:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

It'd make List of strikes and List of protests in the 21st century redundant (maybe obsolete). InedibleHulk (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk That's pretty much what I would have pointed out, too. Also the separate timelines about strikes in 2021, 2022, 2023. Farolif (talk) 00:42, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

But no Timeline of strikes in 2020...it was a simpler time. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Why is the War on Drugs not here

I am wondering why the US War on Drugs, and its deaths, is not here? Is it simply that it has never been tracked? Other "wars on drugs" appear to be present on this list ... TWAIL much? Quick, Spot the Quetzalcoatl! (talk) 08:07, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The wars here are more on the people who use and sell drugs than on drugs themselves. The war on drugs is not a war in that sense, as the reporting mainly focuses on the millions of deaths caused by the inanimate objects on "the other side". It's also not an American war, but multinational (like other once American endeavours), further complicating matters. If we count only those the warriors have killed, it wouldn't seem NPOV much. If we count everyone, it raises questions as to whether drugs can be reasonably considered armed participants (as clear and present a danger as they certainly seem to be). There are even "problems" determining what mainstream society considers a "drug" or "excessive force" today versus in Tricky Dick's time. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Ukraine fatalities

It states over 30k fatalities for the ukraine war in 2024, but according to the source cited, that number refers to the number of fatalities since 19/1-2023. 81.230.7.169 (talk) 11:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 January 2024

Why is the 2023 link in Deaths section unlinked Wikiditor 2 (talk) 11:09, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

It is linked, but the page hasn't been created. Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 13:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I want it to be linked DitorWiki (talk) 14:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Map of ongoing armed conflicts is unhelpful/misleading.

I feel like this map [1] is very unhelpful/misleading.

A heatmap of the location of fatalities would be much more representative perhaps with a color to represent what conflict they belong to

[1] Ongoing conflicts around the world by Futuretrillionaire IanisMD (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Dissident Irish republican campaign?

Despite being small in numbers, many dissident Irish groups are still active and continue to carry out attacks in Northern Ireland, so shouldn’t the UK be in the “skirmishes and clashes” category? LordOfWalruses (talk) 18:01, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Since it does not have "at least 100 cumulative deaths in total and at least 1 death in current or in the past calendar year" it does not count as ongoing, at least according to the criteria decided upon. Kathleen's bike (talk) 11:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Conflict for control of the favelas in greater rio

Someone has been adding the total fatalities in Brazil as a whole per ACLED all as direct result of confrontations in greater Rio 189.37.77.189 (talk) 19:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)