Talk:List of first association football internationals per country

Criteria

In terms of first international, which one do we put? It sounds like a weird question, but often times the first international match by a country is not their first official match. US, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay, among others, had international matches played before their first official international match. I think that by having the first official international match ever, we should only include official international matches in this list. Thanks. Digirami (talk) 13:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure that you are right. I amended the Argentina/Uruguay match to tie-up with the article for each county's national team, but am having second thoughts especially as most sources say that the Uruguay team was from the "Albion" club (see here). To maintain consistency, the two national team articles should be amended as well. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I've made the changes to Uruguay/Argentina and added a note. Digirami (talk) 15:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

An unregistered editor has now posted the May 1901 game as Argentina's first: the two nft articles are at odds. Prior to the formation of FIFA, can we say that any entity had authority or recognition other than its own self-declaration to be the organising body for the sport in its country, and therefore the ability to declare an international to be official? Kevin McE (talk) 10:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

As both RSSSF and IFFHS give the July 1902 match as the first "official" match, we should stick with this rather than the alternative, unless someone can produce a citation showing that one or both of the national associations consider the earlier game to have official status. I have therefore amended both nft articles to include the unofficial and official matches, with a footnote explaining the circumstances. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess my question is what made the AFA and the UAF authoritative at the time: who, before the advent of FIFA, had the right to say that the Asociación del Fútbol Argentino had authority to arrange "official" matches. Had there been a competitor at that time (let's imagine an Asociación Argentina del Fútbol), would games arranged by them be any less "official"? Someone else took upon themselves the function of aranging a match between two representative teams: by what authority do we (or RSSSF) adjudge whoever that was not to have a right to do so? (since typing this, I see the footnote in the Argentina article: while we can say now that club sides cannot organise international matches, who is to say that that rule could be applied in 1901?) Kevin McE (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

All I can say is to quote in full what it says on the IFFHS page: "On May 16, 1901, playing on their home ground at Paso Molino on the outskirts of Montevideo, Albion FC held an international match – which the club itself had organised – against an Argentine team selected by J. O. Anderson. Albion FC had bolstered its side with two players from the Club Nacional de Football, their local rivals. However, prior to the match, the Uruguayan media only mentioned that their Albion side were to meet an Argentine select XI. Furthermore, the Uruguayan team (which lost 2:3) wore its own colours, there were none of the formalities which usually go with full "A" international, and Argentina never regarded this as a full "A" international. Clubs are not authorised to organise and play full "A" international. Hence, this match does not count as an official full "A" international for Uruguay." Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 21:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Generally I am going with the RSSSF tables unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. Before I finish, I will add a note explaining that these matches are not necessarily the first matches recognized by FIFA. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

TOC

The TOC is getting so long as to be worthless, particularly since there is only one game per entry - one may as well not have it at all and scroll down till you find the country you are interested in. Perhaps we could use {{TOC limit}}, set each game to a 3rd level heading, and make 2nd-level sections by decade; eg, 1872-1899, 1900-1909, 1910-1919 etc. either that or simply turn it off!--ClubOranje^T 09:41, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree - I'll turn it off. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 13:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Article size

The article is now in excess of 100 KB so will probable need to be sub-divided. There are still about 50 matches to add, so I will try to keep it as one article for now, so that I can ensure that the chronological order is kept. I can then see where the best place to have a logical split (or splits would be). Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 13:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

With only about 20 left to go, all since 1965, I suggest that the article should be split, as follows:

• List of first association football internationals per country: pre 1940 = 73 debuts/61 matches
• List of first association football internationals per country: 1940–1962 = 73 debuts/64 matches
• List of first association football internationals per country: post 1962 = approx 70 debuts/67 matches

Any thoughts? Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 12:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)