Talk:List of deaths at the Berlin Wall

Table Improvements

Ideally the table should include columns for the location, the person's role/activity (ie. Guard, refugee, etc.), and a simple version of how they died (perhaps supported by footer notes). It may get too wide and anyway I've been staring at it for too long right now! violet/riga _^[talk] 22:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Article name

This article was originally created as Deaths at the Berlin Wall but now resides at List of deaths at the Berlin Wall. I'm happy with this move in the current state though there is the possibility that it could be expanded greatly to more than just a list (see the de.wiki Featured Article). There could of course be a separate article instead. violet/riga _^[talk] 23:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

We may be nearing this point now. It would certainly be worth looking at the de.wiki deaths article to see if there are any further additions that could be made. violet/riga _^[talk] 01:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The defections section of the Berlin Wall article links here and states this article has more information. That article states around 5,000 people successfully defected to West Berlin. Could this figure be mentioned or at least expanded here? Or should this article's name be modified again to Berlin Wall crossing attempts? 22yearswothanks (talk) 05:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

This article, including a straightforward list, is (still) interwiki linked to a a simple list on German Wikipedia while there is a separate full article on the topic in German that is not linked to anything on English Wikipedia. Wouldn't it make more sense to link the two full articles with one another? --OberMegaTrans (talk) 17:36, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Discrepancies

There seem to be a few discrepancies between this summary of findings and the individual articles found on the main site. From what I can see there are five people listed on the findings as having "no intent to escape" while the articles contradict that and say that they were trying to. Other sources would be useful. violet/riga _^[talk] 13:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

More sources/links

Sites

• Krenz loses Berlin Wall appeal
• Berlin Pays Tribute to Last Person Shot Crossing Wall
• Left-wing politicians refuse to honour Berlin Wall deaths
• Streletz v Germany
• Victors' Justice: Court of Human Rights and the Conviction of East German Leaders
• Berlin expands memorial site to mark Wall anniversary
• Berlin Wall Guards Found Guilty of Manslaughter
• Berlin Wall anniversary: former Stasi man 'sickened' by collapse of communism
• Revealed: Tragic victims of the Berlin Wall

Articles

• Erich Honecker
• Egon Krenz
• Fritz Streletz (doesn't exist yet)
• Heinz Kessler

Quote

Quote by Heinz Kessler that could be worked in...

“ I deplore the fact that East Germans were shot while trying to flee westward, but the Berlin wall served a useful purpose. It contributed to a polarisation between the two blocs, but it also gave a certain stability to their relationship. While the wall was standing, there was peace. Today there's hardly a place that isn't in flames. Were you ever in East Germany? It was a wonderful country! [1] ”

Number of deaths

It would be worth reporting what other groups believe the death toll to be: This may help. violet/riga _^[talk] 11:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

No need to go there. This is mentioned already as a table in the German version as well as the primary source being used: "The Victims at the Berlin Wall, 1961-1989: Findings of a Research Project by the Centre for Research on Contemporary History Potsdam and the Berlin Wall Memorial Site and Documentation Centre".... Alandeus (talk) 12:06, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Legal Cases

The Legal Cases Section states:

Only the guard who shot Walter Kittel was charged for manslaughter and sentenced to 10 years in prison.

implying that this was the only conviction of East German guards who killed escapees. However, on the Peter Fechter page, it states the following:

In March 1997 two former East German guards, Rolf Friedrich and Erich Schreiber, faced manslaughter charges for Fechter's death, and admitted to his shooting. They were both convicted, and sentenced to 20 and 21 months' imprisonment on probation. Due to a lack of conclusive evidence, the court was unable to determine which of three gunmen (one of whom had already died) had fired the fatal bullet.

I propose that the sentence regarding Walter Kittel's murderer be changed to something like:

Some GDR guards were later convicted of manslaughter and served jail time.

BeadleB (talk) 06:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Berlin Wall history and victims of the Wall (Image added)

I've just created a SVG image showing the relationship between the Berlin Wall generations and its victims. Feedbacks appreciated, thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sara P.Bo (talk • contribs) 17:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

"Suicide"

"Suicide" is not an accurate term for those who walked up to guards. That would be like saying Tank Man, were he killed, committed "suicide" for standing in front of a tank that then proceeded to run him over. The actual agent in that case, and in this case, is a state police or military force that commits homicide. The civilian is not killing themselves because the civilian is not pulling the trigger or otherwise engaging in an act of violence.

Suicide has two components, both of which are essential: the choice to die and the act of carrying it out. If only one of these conditions is met, we cannot call it "suicide."

• 9/11 jumpers were victims of homicide, because they did not choose to be trapped in a burning building from which they could not escape. Those who jumped from the World Trade Center have "homicide" listed on their death certificates, reflecting the reality that they did not have the choice of having their lives cut short.
• We use "suicide" in the case of "assisted suicide," but that qualifier is essential. It indicates that one chose to die, but did not actually carry out the act.

A more accurate term might be "provoked the guard," or something to that effect. "Suicide" defies common sense, and it is not the term a doctor or an investigator would use to describe this circumstance. 65.88.88.203 (talk) 00:00, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Help editing SVG image?

The SVG image listed under Causes and Periods of Death is fantastic, but there is a misspelling in the text of the image (second box from the left, "territor" instead of "territory"). Does anyone know how to fix this? Amphytrite (talk) 20:25, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

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