Talk:List of cities in Ukraine

organizing list of UA cities articles

I suggeste to move this to List of cities in Ukraine by polutation and at this location to have a dab between List of cities in Ukraine by Oblast and List of cities in Ukraine by population. Objections? Other suggestions? --Irpen 07:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

No. I don't see significant benefit of this proposal. It only brings a small complication, as one additional click is always required. (Actually, I don't like also how you did it with Dynamo and Dynamo (clubs). I don’t think there was a need to introduce Dynamo (clubs). We can just list all Dynamo clubs on the Dynamo page. The page is not large, and is not expected to be large. And the number of Dynamo/Dinamo clubs is also reasonably limited. Now in order to get to FC Dynamo Kiev I have to previously visit two pages instead of one).

Also, consistency is good. List of cities should actually include a list of cities. And this is what we have for the other countries. For example, List of towns in France, List of cities in Italy, List of cities in Russia

Also, this way of presenting the list of cities matches the one on Ukrainian wiki. There are 3 lists there: by population, by oblast, and by alphabet. The main one is by population, which includes links to the other two. Uapatriot 18:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

As for Dynamo, I am not sure I understand you. Please bring it up at that's article talk. The article sitting at "Dinamo" entry was just a list of clubs and my goal was to free this name Dinamo for a sports society article. Therefore, I moved the club list.

As for this one, either way is OK with me. If we have three lists, the other two should be prominently displayed, I think, at the top of this article, rather than at "See also". But again, this is just a suggestion. Please say at talk:Dynamo how exactly you want to do this or leave a message at my talk. Thanks, --Irpen 18:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

If you think that at the top is better then let's go for it. Actually, for most countries that I have seen (for an unknown to me reason) it's done by "See also". We may also do it both ways, at the top and "See also" (if it's acceptable by wiki policies).

When I tried to list Stebliv, it was objected because it is a town, not a city. Should we then have a separate list of towns and yet a separate list of villages (there are many notable villages as well)? --Irpen 08:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Irpen: It's true that Stebliv is not a city (misto), but a town/townlet (selysche mis'ko typu). Given that the List of cities in Ukraine is already quite large (as of today it should consist of 457 cities) I don't think it make sense to create even bigger "List of cities, towns, and villiages in Ukraine".

I had in mind that towns/townlets would go into the "List of towns in Ukraine", or into the "List of towns in XXX Oblast, Ukraine" for each Oblast. As of today in Ukraine there are 885 towns/townlets (selysche mis'ko typu) [1]. But probably only a few of them need an article.

Also, please note from the link that in Oblast only about 30% of raion centers (district centers) are of Oblast subordinance (misto oblastnogo znachennya). Thus, if a city is a raion center, and is of Oblast subordinance, then both of these things should probably be mentioned. Example: Kazatin (btw, it should be Kozyatyn) is the center of Kozyatyn Raion and a city of Oblast subordinance (of Vinnytsia Oblast). However, Bar, Ukraine is the center of Bar Raion in the same oblast, but it was not given the Oblast subordinace status. I was not aware of such details too. Take care. Anonymous, 04:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, guys, somebody done a great job here! But I think the table is little ambiguous:

• There must be a note (in the column heading, or footnote) that the second column directs to Ukr. WP. Otherwise those links read confusingly.
• The "Subdivision" column should be "Unit of subdivision" (linking to the same place as now).

Also, if some of the listed cities are subordinated to raions or municipalities, the "Subdivision" column may be made more specicific. AlexPU 18:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Did I tell you that I (as the founder of this page :)) dislike the ideas of:

• turning x-ska oblast into x- Oblast?
• creating a MASSIVE ambiguity regarding Ukraine's cities-towns-villages? :(( AlexPU 18:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Finally, it's nice to see see the founder. :) Sure, a note on the links to Ukr wiki would be useful. "Subdivision" is just shorter than "Unit of subdivision" with about the same meaning. For most of the cities the name of raion to which they are subordinate is the same as the name of the city itself. The additional column with raion name would not hurt But it would not give much additional info either. 1/3 of cities are subordinate to oblast, and 2/3 are subordinate to raion. But even the first group are usually centers of raion. So, actually, raion name can be given for (almost) all cities, but again raion name is the same as city name, so the benefit is tiny.

I was not the one who turned x-ska into x- oblast, but probably for an average English reader it would be easier to get that Sumy is located in Sumy Oblast. I like it this way, actually, but I may be too americanized already. :)

Right now there is no ambiguity on cities-towns-villages. Look, city=misto, town=selysche miskogo typu, village=selo. It's so easy. For Russian cities they are trying to match city and town as gorod, with no clear rule on which one is city and which one is town. Then, selysche miskogo typu they first translated as townlet, and now it's urban-type settlement. And who knows what it'll be tommorow. For Ukraine it's so straightforward: selysche miskogo typu=town, nice and easy word "town" :) no need for anything else.

Nice to meet you, KPbIC 09:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Variations

I don't understand German, so I'm having trouble understanding why different cicites (such as Perehinske / Перегінське) are listed on de:Liste der Städte in der Ukraine (the German version of this page). Could someone please explain? Thanks! — Reinyday, 04:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what they are doing there.. I only spend time on the English/Ukrainian Wikipedias. Probably, someone just added it for a reason they had had.. —dima/talk/ 05:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Perehinske is not a city; it is a town. And this list includes only cities.--Ahonc (Talk) 19:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Dzyhivka

I would like to add Dzyhivka to this list of cities, but I don't know how to do it. Please help. Thanks. USchick (talk) 05:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Done! BTW It's better to ask questions at the bottom of a talk page, otherwise it might go unnoticed Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please explain the difference between a city and a village or town? Cities listed on this page have a population of less than 2,500 people, while Dzyhivka has a population of over 4,000. Does it not qualify? Why did it get deleted? USchick (talk) 04:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

In Ukraine, the status of each settlement is designated by a special law provision. Names are translated from Ukrainian as city, Urban-type settlement (a term that bears Soviet administrative division legacy), village. (You can learn more at Administrative divisions of Ukraine). The status of Dzyhivka is село (village), according to the this village's entry at the Ukrainian Parliament portal. --Irpen 05:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I should have known there would be a reason tied up in bureaucracy! Thank you for that very thorough explanation :) USchick (talk) 01:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

обласного or областного and i to y

Hi all

Can someone clear up my presumption that because google gives 7 million hits for областного and 1 million for обласного I reverted an editor (common usage) [2]

Was I correct or was this incorrect ?

I also notice Kyiv, amongst other similar i to y entries, that may or may not be correct ?

thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 17:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course, "обласного" (in Ukrainian). However, the word is in Genitive as it ends with "-ого". In Nominative it would be "область" or Kiev (Kyiv) Oblast. Speculatively, the writing of "областного" (a Russian word) reflects an example of either a non-educated person or a Russian-native speaker who uses the Russian grammar in the Ukrainian language.

Kyiv is actually the correct transliteration from a native Ukrainian language... sort of. It is all about change of alphabets. Kiev transliteration was used widely during when Ukraine was under the Russian domination such as the Russian Empire and the quasi-democratic Soviet Union which in reality was simply another name for the Moscow's Empire. During the Polish rule (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) the city's name was actually spelled as Kijow in the Latin alphabet, for example. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Another thing. Transliteration in English can be portray in various way, unlike for example the German language, because in English vowels do not represent a specific sound and change according to various situations. Therefore to argue such spellings as Kiev or Dnepropetrovsk is not very important, because in English "e" could be either -eh, -ee, or even -yeh and -ai (sometimes). Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

The point is are we going to go against policy and ignore the "most commonly found" versions - most of us know the problems about Russian and Ukrainian transliterations by the USA and the rest of the world giving us Kiev instead of Kyiv - The problem is that the most commonly used version is Kiev and similarly it appears the most commonly used version is областного Chaosdruid (talk) 19:54, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a difference between using the most common spelling of a city's name in English and using the transliteration of a Ukrainian word versus a Russian. We should use the "official" Ukrainian form for обласного since it is not a proper name. "Kiev" is a special case and the discussion at Talk:Kiev/Naming takes precedence. --Taivo (talk) 20:33, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

(margin reset)

From what little I know about stuff, I'd say that I would favor the "Strong argument" that is presented in the Talk:Kiev/Naming discussion: namely, that the spelling of Kyiv is officially recognized by the governments of the United States and Great Britain, as well as the United Nations. Taken together, that would pretty much sell it, in my opinion...

As per the обласного or областного thing: I say go with обласного for all Wiki articles involving Ukraine, since it is the Ukrainian language we should use in those cases, not Russian. Of course, we'd need to set up a redirect link to take people to the appropriate Wiki article if they used the form of областного instead. Anyway, just chiming in with my two bits', for what it's worth. --Saukkomies ^talk 12:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

So I was wrong to revert then. My concern was that it was google translator that told me it was an error, which is why I reverted it, and means I cannot use google for a reliable translation of even single words as it appears to have been the Russian spelling rather than Ukrainian.

thanks for that everyone :-) Chaosdruid (talk) 13:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Right. Google translator is, well, not accurate enough for Wikipedia's purposes ;) --Taivo (talk) 14:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

What about these sources? Do they convince the wiki community to use the right spelling instead of the popular spelling?

UNGEGN World Geographical Names

The World Factbook of CIA

By the way, if a Pole says "Przemyśl" and a Ukrainian says "Перемишль" ("Peremyshl" in Latin), and that city is under polish jurisdiction, who should an Englishman consult on how to spell that city - the Pole or the Ukrainian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mivanchenko (talk • contribs) 10:33, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Mangled city names

I was looking through this list for Debaltseve, which I heard on the news and wasn't sure how to spell. I noticed a few city names that looked unpronounceable, such as "Цррупинск". These were introduced by Vomas while making the table sortable. I don't know Ukrainian well enough (I've studied Russian, not Ukrainian) to pick them all out, and the diff isn't very helpful because it calls every other line different. Could someone fix them? phma (talk) 12:24, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

 DoneЦррупинск - Цюрупинск. Thanks! ^-^ --Nickispeaki (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

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Question about Crimea

Do we use de jure or de facto status to determine where a region belongs? If de facto, then my guess would be that Crimean cities shouldn't be here, but in Russia's list? Thanks in advance! (User:PhilTheDuck)

In List of cities and towns in Georgia (country) we show also cities in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Thus answer to your question: we use de jure status. Delasse (talk) 13:42, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Population figures

Is the population given for each city the population of the census/statistical boundaries of the city (i.e. settlement), or is the population given within the administrative boundaries of the city? This is not made clear in the article. --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:10, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Would like the ability to view table without pictures

I wish that the table allowed the option of excluding the pictures column, because this column adds too much spacing to the table. I could then quickly compare the 20 largest cities all on my PC screen together in descending order of population. I do not know how to implement a new feature like this. So I am suggesting this here in the hope that someone who knows how to do this might consider adding this option for viewing tables. 1.144.107.41 (talk) 14:48, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Sources & Cities under 20k Population

I'm confused why the cite used for the population estimates are from the City Population website and not the Publication from Statistics Ukraine. Both have the same numbers, but the Publication has cities under 20,000. I'm pretty sure that the data under 20,000 is from the 2001 consensus and not the 2021 estimate. Jrg (talk) 21:33, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

sorting

can someone sort it - Jrg (talk) 00:17, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022. Rei (talk) 00:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't the population estimates be updated to 2022?

This list uses data for the 2021 estimate of 1 January, but there is a newer estimate on 1 January 2022 (still before the War) that is arguably more adequate. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, ideally the latest estimate should be used. I think it is simply because it takes quite a lot of time to update this is why this has not been done yet. Mellk (talk) 20:41, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm working on it. ;) Alexis Coutinho (talk) 03:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, nice work. Mellk (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Alexis Coutinho (talk) 02:40, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

internationally recognised borders

in the image it says that the borders are not internationally recognised which is not true. The borders of Ukraine are internationally recognised since 1991 which includes Crimea and the Donbas, also neither the DPR nor LPR are internationally recognised. 80.130.150.55 (talk) 01:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The image refers to the Russian subdivisions/breakaway states on Ukrainian territory as internationally unrecognized. Mellk (talk) 01:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)