Talk:List of Methodist churches in the United States

development

This list-article was created as a separate Wikipedia article by a big edit moving material developed, mostly by me, within a U.S. section of world-wide List of Methodist churches. It is intended by me to continue to develop articles on the listed U.S. churches. Currently almost all the items are NRHP-listed churches; there is extensive documentation available for each of these that meets Wikipedia verifiability and notability concerns. The main list article is still new, but was already challenged by an AFD. The AFD was, obviously, closed Keep. Other, non-NRHP-listed churches should be added here too, and their notability and verifiability should be documented. --doncram 20:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

new coords template display problem

When recently created, this article's coordinates displayed fine, either showing something good or nothing at all. A change at {{coord}} template has caused awful display of red error messages. If anyone wants to comment out the now-badly-displaying coordinate templates individually, go ahead, but please don't simply remove them and make more work for those of us actually adding content.

And, if you're not part of the solution here, don't admonish others too much about what we must do, okay? It is a new list, tagged clearly as under construction. --doncram 03:47, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

As noted also at Talk:List of Unitarian churches#mass removal of redlinks not helpful, an editor has removed redlinks from this article and/or related others, maybe a couple of times, and I have restored them. There are two problems: one that some linked articles have been created but moved, and are being restored. And two, that a recent change to the {{coord}} template causes bad display with redlinks, for empty coordinates. This is being addressed by a programming fix, I hope, which will remove the bad display here. However, an alternative is to comment out the empty coord templates.

Repeatedly deleting a lot of the work-in-progress in a brand new list-article under active construction is, IMO, obviously wp:DISRUPT disruptive, and/or wp:POINTY, and/or other bad, non-collegial things. And, discussing at a Talk page is another suggestion. --doncram 19:32, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

related items: Methodist campgrounds, parsonages, other

In this series of edits, an editor removed numerous items that are likely valid items for this list. I.e. where there is an NRHP-listed historic parsonage building, the current Methodist church associated with that is likely notable. And where there is a Methodist campground and sanctuary, it seems to be directly relevant to include the item. Notable Methodist campgrounds would be compatible with the list, though of course requiring some mention in the lede, but probably not requiring the article title to be changed. I find wholesale removal edits like this to be unhelpful; it seems antagonistic, destroying work in progress. It seems this editor may have a personal grudge, too, so the edits are suspect IMO for that reason. It would have been helpful, perhaps, to remove the items to a Talk page section discussion here, which the editor could relatively easily have done. Now, however, it will take more effort to restore the items to the article or to list them here.

I grant that one or a few of those, upon further consideration, will properly be deleted entirely. I think for example one is an Indian mound named for a nearby church, and I am not sure whether the church is notable by dint of the nearby mound or otherwise.

I'm going to restore all, basically, and will bring some items back here for discussion. Please discuss individual items here, civilly. --doncram 19:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

For a few to discuss, consider these NRHP-listed ones with "methodist camp" in their name:

• Cypress Methodist Camp Ground, Ridgeville, SC
• Des Plaines Methodist Camp Ground, Des Plaines, IL
• Indian Fields Methodist Campground, St. George, SC
• Jonesville Methodist Campground, Jonesville, VA
• Sulphur Springs Methodist Campground, Jonesboro, TN
• Wesleyan Methodist Campground and Tabernacle, Ashburn, GA

--doncram 14:05, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion

I'm trying to understand the criteria for inclusion in this list. I notice that there are only three listings for the state of Washington; in particular, numerous NRHP-listed church buildings are not mentioned. - Jmabel | Talk 08:21, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

@Doncram: You said on my talk page that you had reopened this discussion, but I don't see anything recent. Am I looking in the wrong place? - Jmabel | Talk 22:47, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

(ec) Hi, @Jmabel:, wow you got here fast! Thanks for coming here. What i was in the middle of posting:

I did much of the original development of this list-article (when it was part of the world-wide list and also after it was split into U.S.-only) in 2012 and early 2013. I don't know exactly what I did, but I believe I tried to include all churches with "Methodist" in their name that were included in the NRHP's NRIS database. I received an edit restriction in 2013 that probably applied here and ceased editing. I am fully released from that restriction now and I would v. much like to develop this out better. It is a priority for me because this list was never very well completed...for example currently it merely shows "built" and "NRHP-listed" for the 3 included Washington items, where I had intended for year-dates to be filled in (that may change soon).

I would have missed NRHP-listed churches without Methodist in their names, and I could certainly have missed other notable methodist churches in Washington. Running a search here on "methodist" on state Washington yields 3 hits now, just the 3 ones already included here. That search covers NRHP listings through 2009 only, I think. I don't see any others in Category:Churches on the National Register of Historic Places in Washington (state). The category Category:Methodist churches in Washington (state) adds two more apparently notable ones: Claquato Church and Grace Evangelical Church of Vader, which are both NRHP-listed and which should be added here.

I imagine that cross-checking this list-article's sections vs. state-specific categories like that will turn up more omissions. Are there any others that you know of that were missed? Are there any other strategies to improve this list? I am very eager to fix problems here now. --doncram 22:59, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

1. I'm still not clear on the criteria for inclusion.
2. I would definitely include A.M.E. churches, they are certainly a branch of Methodism.
3. I don't have a lot of time, but I'll look for some of what I was surprised was missing in Washington state. - Jmabel | Talk 23:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

• Old building of First United Methodist Church (Seattle), now Daniels Recital Hall, NRHP-listed. This is an entirely different church from First Methodist Protestant Church of Seattle which is in the article. I think it's the omission I noticed a couple of years ago.

Okay, good, and I have added Methodist church category and Churches listed on the NRHP category to its article. --doncram

• First A.M.E. Church, Seattle: has Seattle Landmark status, though not NRHP.
• The old University Methodist Episcopal Church: has Seattle Landmark status, though not NRHP.
• United Methodist Church, La Conner: not individually listed, but a contributing property of a Historic District
• University Methodist Temple, Seattle. Not a listed building, but I have no idea why not. One of the three of four most notable churches in a neighborhood with about 2 dozen churches. Again, this would depend on the criteria.

Jmabel | Talk Jmabel | Talk 23:31, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

1. Thanks! I think all of the above should be included as rows in the table here, though they don't all need separate articles, some can be non-linked items. Please go ahead and add them if I don't. The facts mentioned for the first four suffice to establish list-item notability in my view. Notability of the fifth one (University Methodist Temple, Seattle) should be asserted somehow: hopefully some source(s) about it can be included in the description column. If you think separate-article notability is established by sources and think there should be an article created with more than the row can comfortably include, go ahead and make the entry into a red-linked item.
2. Maybe we should make some effort to add at least one AME or other traditionally African-American one? The biggest or oldest AME church in Washington state is notable for being that, perhaps. (See next discussion section too.) In List of mosques in the United States and other list-articles I think I was making an effort to get one mosque or whatever in every state.
3. I think the standard for list-items here should be lower than requiring individual NRHP-listing. Any church having a separate article on its own (presumably meeting wp:GNG(?) standard) should be included, but the standard should be lower than requiring that, IMO. I don't like standalone list-articles being managed on the criteria that only items having separate articles can be included (which is one way to go, per wp:STANDALONE(?). However there should be sources attesting to some notability. Hopefully having a list-article will allow marginally notable churches to be covered as items here without need for creating separate articles on them, avoiding drama of AFDs. Does this help? It is not exactly an explicit answer on what the criteria for inclusion are, because I am not defining the edge of list-item notability for inclusion here, but it is where I am at. And there has not been a rush to include Methodist churches here, so maybe it doesn't have to be exactly decided yet. I don't get to decide on my own, anyhow, do I? --doncram 00:08, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Towards getting an AME or similar one: The Washington state Wisaard system here, accessed using Internet Explorer as required and making it full-screen to be able to see its search field, yielded 5 hits when I began entering "first methodist" in the search field at upper left. These are (with notes from further searching in Wisaard):

• First Free Methodist Church, Seattle
• First Free Methodist Church, Takoma (is evaluated as not very well preserved, not NRHP eligible)
• First African Methodist Episcopal Church, Seattle
• First Korean United Methodist Church, Lakewood
• Auburn First United Methodist Church, Auburn

Maybe one or more of these should be included, if the system does have significant info on them. Or the system could be searched more for other "Methodist Episcopal" ones.

(I was in the system to find the NRHP nomination document for First United Methodist Church (Seattle) (Daniels Recital Hall), which I eventually got to, and am posting about at Talk:Daniels Recital Hall.) --doncram 01:17, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

this list vs. separate List of AME and AME Zion ones

There is List of African Methodist Episcopal churches also under development. That currently covers churches of two of the traditionally African-American Methodist church denominations: AME and AME Zion. I and perhaps another editor or two have been headed towards "table-izing" there in similar style to here. The list here was intended to cover all Methodist churches, including all of them, but that would make for a lot of duplication. What to do?

Note, there was some sentiment expressed by someone during 2012 development of this list that it should include the AME and CME ones for sure.

Note, six denominations entered full communion in 2012 (per a reference at a couple of the denomination's articles ): the traditional mainline United Methodist Church and 5 others which I think are all traditionally African-American:

• the African Union Methodist Protestant Church (A.U.M.P. Church)
• the Union American Methodist Episcopal Church (U.A.M.E. Church)
• the African Methodist Episcopal Church ( AME )
• the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church (AME Zion) and
• the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church (CME)

References

Questions:

• 1. Should we cover them all together just in this one big list? (Note if this one big list gets too big the bigger states will be split out.)
  • 1.a. With or without a new column to indicate which of these six types (and any more types) each local church belonged to for most of their existence? (But if this continues with separate sections for each state, it will not be possible to sort all of any type together.)
• 2. Should the List of AME churches be merged/deleted? Or kept, duplicating, with or without "table-izing"?
• 3. Perhaps should there be separate list-articles for each type, but without table-izing each of those? That would mean creating List of United Methodist churches, List of African Union Methodist Protestant churches, List of Union American Methodist Episcopal churches, List of African Methodist Episcopal Zion churches, and List of Christian Methodist Episcopal churches. However several of these might just be created as sections in their denomination articles.

--doncram 23:38, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

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