Talk:List of Jewish heads of state and government

Colonial governor?

I could find already Herbert Samuel, 1st Viscount Samuel, Andrew Cohen (colonial administrator) and Matthew Nathan. + Gabriel Milan

I would say they were head of the government of the Colony...--Iudaeorum (talk) 09:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion

The title states "List of Jewish heads of state and government". I would expect a list where each entry is supported by a source stating that person is Jewish. However the lead sentence states the list includes people who "are ethnically Jewish, and have at least a Jewish parent". (I'm not sure how someone can be ethnically Jewish and and not have a Jewish parent but whatever). This is a very different inclusion criteria to the article title. It is also problematic. I just removed Dominic Raab (Jewish father but not mother, doesn't identify as Jewish) and Mikhail Mishustin (source: "father of Russian-Jewish origin and a mother of Russian origin" which is ambiguous as to whether or not he only has one Jewish grandparent). Unless there is a consensus otherwise, I will revise the lead and list to reflect the actual title, per similar lists e.g. Lists of American Jews.----Pontificalibus 13:59, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Further to reversion of my Mikhail Mishustin removal, we need reliable sources for every entry which state the subject “is Jewish” for inclusion on this list.—--Pontificalibus 06:36, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Pontificalibus, you are completely correct, and I've started fixing that. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:35, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

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Juan Alvarez Mendizabal, erased.

Is a historical fake to say Juan Alvarez de Mendizabal was jewis. Perhaps, ONLY perhaps, some of his ancestors had been jewis two or three centuries ago, but Mendizaban wasn't jewis. His page in wikipedia (spanish) let clear it: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_%C3%81lvarez_Mendiz%C3%A1bal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.86.17.1 (talk) 20:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Dates aren't in consistent format

Try to sort one of the date columns in the table by clicking its header, and you'll see that it doesn't work. Perhaps this is because all the dates have varying formats? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jazz2y (talk • contribs) 17:44, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's very bad, guys, cant't you do that? --= (talk) 12:07, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Subject of the article

Hello, I disagree with the creation of a list of people having in their genealogy someone Jewish. It is not the subject of the article and it is superfluous. Why doing it especially for the Jewish origin and not for exemple Irish.

Secondly, the curent list takes into account people having a parent Jewish, and thus "partially Jewish" in the sense of genealogy, therefore adding a new list, that doesn't represent the article, is superfluous and baseless.--Bageralg (talk) 12:29, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I think that it's important to include such people: it's not inclusive to exclude them from the list and it's information someone reading the article might be interested in (me included).

If the subject of the article isn't clear enough, we should consider modifying it. If Jewish genealogy is interesting enough for books and articles to be written on and for some head of states to mention in interviews, it's interesting enough for a Wikipedia article, and actually would be wrong to exclude them from the list.

As for the list of head of states from Irish origin - sounds like an interesting article I would definitely read. 2A00:A040:19E:C648:E4CC:2F88:B7B3:7EF1 (talk) 21:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

This article is already inclusive, including those with a Jewish background, religion and ethnicity. In this case this article isn't about listing genealogy. It may be genuinely interesting for you and me, but it is off topic. also you cannot add lists about everything as this article as only one subject. Concerning antiquity, the concept of state is a modern concept, and there is already a list about rulers of the land of Israel. --Bageralg (talk) 13:23, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

This thread is about the same topic in "Other lists", so I suggest continuing the conversation in only one of them.

The list about the rulers of the land of Israel doesn't include Jewish head of states of different entities, such as the Byzantine Empire for example. I'm not sure that I understand why the New Kingdom of León is included and Tsardom of Bulgaria is excluded. The concept of a state began to evolve during the Middle Ages and both Tsardom of Bulgaria and Byzantine Empire (of the 14th century) could fit in my opinion. 85.65.163.72 (talk) 21:32, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Because there was no Jews head of state before the modern period except in ancient Israel and rumors, and this list is about Jews and not far fetched Jewish descent or± historiography.

It is more appropriate to start a list in the modern period, since the concept of a state is linked to it.--Bageralg (talk) 12:58, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

This subject of this article is List of Jewish heads of state and government, not List of heads of state and government with at least one Jewish ancestor. If they're not Jewish, the don't belong in this list. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:09, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Stop adding Dominic Raab

Dominic Raab was never acting as Prime minister, when Johnson was sick he solely deputise. People keep on adding people without providing referencing, and it is a real issue in this article. Bageralg (talk) 10:32, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

No contradiction.--Bageralg (talk) 13:24, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Other lists

This list concern the heads of state of Jewish background. Other lists such as genealogical lists or antiquity/middle age, doesn't make sense on this page. The title describe the article, and people can't add lists as they want. Bageralg (talk) 14:35, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The title doesn't specify "modern era", and even if in the Middle Ages and antiquity states looked different there were similar entities and some had Jewish leaders. It's definitely something a potential reader would be interested in.

As for partial Jewish descent - it's also relevant and would be a information readers would be interested in. The separation to different lists is just for clarifying the differences, even though one could argue all should be on the same list.

Claiming people with only a Jewish grandmother for example are not Jewish enough for this article is not inclusive and biased. It's better have them than exclude them. 2A00:A040:19E:C648:E4CC:2F88:B7B3:7EF1 (talk) 21:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

It is not baised to reject genealogical lists of people for an encyclopedia. And there is no need to list people with genealogical Jewish descent, since the article is not about that subject at all, but rather about Jewish head of states.--Bageralg (talk) 13:17, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

How do you decide when someone is Jewish or from Jewish decent or just has genealogical Jewish descent? Most of head of states on the current "genealogical" list are considered Jews by Israel's Law of Return (at least one Jewish grandparent). Actually, it's the same definition of Nazi Germany's Nuremberg Laws, so most of them would be persecuted for being Jewish in 1930's Europe. For some reason, they are not Jewish enough under your definition (which I'm not sure what it is actually). By halakhic definition, even one Jewish great grandmother is enough to be considered Jewish.

Because this list is inclusive ("This is a list of heads of state and government in modern time, who are Jewish, by ancestry, peoplehood, religion or culture."), how it should be, all of them should be part of this article.

I personally think they should all be under the main table or change the name of the additional table to "Heads of state and government from Jewish descent". Their Jewish origin is stated, so the readers can decide for themselves with their subjective definition of "who is Jewish" if a leader falls under the definition or not. 85.65.163.72 (talk) 21:18, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I see many mistakes in your argument, law of return gives you a status of "Jewish" or "Jewish descent" based on the religious material you provide, and therefore does not recognize people as Jews at all. While Religious law, is a legal process for religious significance, but it has to be recognized by a religious court, therefore you can't really play the religious judge. So the only way to make a list of Jews is based on ethnicity, and eventually religion.

In regards to the definition, firstly the concept of state is modern and can't reasonably be extended to all time, and you can't rely on unreliable middle age and antiquity sources about rumors of Jewish descent. Secondly, this list was made about Jews not about Jewish descent. So we should retract individuals with far fetched Jewish descent.

The idea behind "ancestry, peoplehood, religion or culture." Is that you include non religious, cultural and Ethnic jews under the same list, not to collect data on all people with a Jewish descent.--Bageralg (talk) 12:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

This article is List of Jewish heads of state and government, not List of heads of state and government with at least one Jewish ancestor. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Vladimir Lenin is from Jewish descent

People keep deleting Lenin from the list although he is from Jewish descent.

His father Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov was from a family of former serfs; Ilya's father's ethnicity remains unclear, while Ilya's mother, Anna Alexeyevna Smirnova, was half-Kalmyk and half-Russian. His mother is Maria Alexandrovna Blank, a daughter of a wealthy German–Swedish Lutheran mother, and a Russian Jewish father.

There is irrefutable proof that Lenin’s maternal great-grandfather was a shtetl Jew named Moshko Blank. Declassified KGB files, formal USSR documents, present the facts. Actually even Lenin's older sister, Anna Ulyanova, wrote it in a letter to Stalin in 1932, but he ordered Ulyanova to keep Lenin's Jewish roots under wraps. The documents are present in an exhibition in Moscow's State Historical Museum from 2011.

Lenin's Jewish descent doesn't contradict his other descents, that include German and Swedish among others for example. I suggest re-adding Lenin to the article, where he rightfully belongs. 85.65.163.72 (talk) 21:53, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, read his Wikipedia page ( Payne, Robert (1967). The Life And Death of Lenin. Simon & Schuster. Is quoted), or read Lenin: Genesis and Development of a Revolutionary

By Rolf H.W. Theen, Princeton 2014. Page 25 --Bageralg (talk) 12:43, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

"The Life And Death of Lenin" was originally published in 1964 and "Lenin: Genesis and Development of a Revolutionary" was originally published in 1980. Both of them were originally published before the declassification of the formal documents presenting Lenin's Jewish descent.

A reasonable compromise would be to re-add Lenin with a footnote that older versions claim German descent. 85.65.163.72 (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Ancestry

Many on the list have a Jewish descent, but do not appears to identify OR be Jewish, why should they be included? The title is about Jews not people of Jewish ancestry who do not identify as such. Beibler (talk) 02:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

This article is List of Jewish heads of state and government, not List of heads of state and government with at least one Jewish ancestor. If they're not Jewish, the don't belong in this list. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:09, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Missing president

Jorge Sampaio is not here? Mind blowing. 148.69.0.243 (talk) 14:58, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

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Relevancy of this Wikipedia entry?

Can someone explain to me what relevancy this page has? Other than playing "Jewish Geography" as this is otherwise known? — Ineuw talk 05:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)