Talk:Leonard Cohen/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

mother of his children

A recent enonymous edit changed "Cohen fathered two children with dancer Suzanne Verdal McCallister"... to "Cohen fathered two children with artist Suzanne Elrod". I have no idea of the facts, and neither cites a reference, so I am not reverting, but it would be good if someone could sort this out. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:23, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

The new version is correct. Suzanne Vaillancourt (nee Verdal aka McCallister) (a Quebecoise) was the Suzanne behind the song "Suzanne" [2]. Suzanne Elrod is the mother of Cohen's eldest children. [3]

The change is correct, as outlined above. The following archived article on the same site also gives some information on Cohen's relationships: [4] -- WJL

The interview with Suzanne Verdal McCallister cited above is very revealing about Cohen's most famous song. I'm adding it to the external links. JamesMLane 9 July 2005 07:00 (UTC) Well, on further review, I see that the overall site it comes from (leonardcohenfiles.com) is already linked, so I guess that will have to do. JamesMLane 9 July 2005 07:04 (UTC)

God

" It is widely believed that if there's a god, he's Leonard. " Oh, that's wonderful. Shame about the revert. Tolo 06:30, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Officer Cohen?

I cut the following recent anonymous addition, pending citation. "He also expressed interest to become a police officer in his early years." I can't say it's wrong, but I never heard of it, and I'd want to see a citation that this is more than either a random claim or that at the age of 6 he made some childish remark. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:50, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Midnight Choir

Who the heck are the recently (red-)linked Midnight Choir? Is this real, or just a reference to the lyrics of "Bird on a Wire"? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:11, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's real. I mean, there's a Norwegian band named 'Midnight Choir', but that's just because, I suppose, it's cool to have the name of your band a Leonard Cohen lyric. Perhaps the well-meaning linker just thought that choirs came in the midnight variety. Tolo 12:14, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

On this basis, I will delete it, pending documentation. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:27, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

Midnight Choir is a Norwegian band, as Tolo said, and yes, they did a cover of Leonard Cohen's Bird On The Wire. It has the same title and is the last song of an untitled rarity album from early 1994, that has only been issued in Norway and sold in about 1800 copies as far as I know (it was at the very beginning of the band). Maybe you're right about this not being sufficiently encyclopedic, since it (the song) is so unknown - though the band is quite well known in Scandinavia and the German countries - which I didn't think about, but the cover version exists for sure. Oh and as for the "red"-linking, I am planning to make an article about the band soon, that's why I linked it already. Greetings Totti 19:30, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I hadn't heard of the band, and it looked like likely vandalism. (As you can see, someone else thought the same). I'd call this a borderline inclusion in this article. There have been at least 800 covers of Cohen songs, and we link to an external page that tries to list them comprehensively. Since I have no idea how prominent this band may now be in Norway, I'll leave it to the judgment of others whether they are prominent enough to belong in this article. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:11, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't notice the link. I'll just message them and request the Midnight Choir cover to be added, that's probably more reasonable than adding it to the article. Sorry for the mistake. Totti 20:44, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Echo and the Bunnymen

is it worth mentioning Ian McCulloch from Echo and the Bunnymen as a person inspired by Cohen and later to produce a tribute album? (anon 13 March 2005)

• Probably worth a mention in with other covers, but not much more than that. An awful lot of musicians consider Cohen an important influence. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:35, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Busking

I have added info abou his busking activities found at http://www.webheights.net/speakingcohen/st93.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.132.58.112 (talk • contribs) 25 May 2006.

Musical balance

Reading the section that describes his music in a bit of detail, it seems that the section isn't very well balanced. His first three or four albums are covered in a short paragraph, whilst his work from I'm Your Man onwards devotes a long paragraph to each album. This is odd as those first three or four albums were so acclaimed, were his most influential and are often seen as being the "heart" of his work. Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to expand the parts about the earlier albums. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.0.223.244 (talk • contribs) 15 May 2006.

The Conspiracy of Beards

An anonymous user keeps adding mention of a cover of "Chelsea Hotel" by The Conspiracy of Beards to the article. I see no reason why, out of over 1,000 covers of Leonard Cohen, this cover by a choir with no national or international reputation is notable. I have more than once reverted it with edit summaries indicating this and asking the person to explain on the talk page why this is notable. The person has not taken me up on this. Instead, he/she just keeps adding it back to the article. Mere persistence by this anonymous user will not change my mind about this. Either make a case, or I will keep reverting. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:39, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Hi -- That would be I. The Conspiracy of Beards has received international attention by the media for their cover songs of Leonard Cohen's poetry. They have been on National radio, perform live regularly and soon will be doing a tour both in the US and in Europe.Their CD is set to release in 2005. Although they are not as famous as these other groups, they soon will be. Check out their entry The Conspiracy of Beards and web site. Merigorownd 15:25, August 8, 2005

Please take a look at the Notability and Music Guidelines for bands and ensembles. I don't believe that TCOB meet these criteria, which is why Jmabel continues to revert your edits. -Satori 23:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

My view is that they are borderline notable for an article of their own but probably on the upswing, so I don't object to that article, but not (at least not yet) notable enough to be among the 40 or Leonard Cohen covers mentioned, out of over 1000 documented. There are probably a few others in the article that don't really belong, but this one seemed egregious. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:00, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Satori: On the contrary, The Conspiracy of Beards meet almost all of the guidelines of Notability and Music Guidelines Merigorownd 17:29, August 8, 2005

No Top-100 hit, have not yet toured nationally, have not yet released an album, have not been featured in music media as far as I could find, do not have a member of an extremely notable band, have not become the most prominent representative of a particular style, and have not won a major music award. They don't, as far as I can tell, yet meet any of the criteria. They will be moving in that direction once the album is out and they go on tour, both of which will be Verifiable information. -Satori 00:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary The Conspiracy of Beards has appeared on West Coast Live national radio broadcast and National Public Radio and contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise extremely notable. It's my understanding that for Notability and Music Guidelines is notable if meets ANY of the criteria listed. Merigorownd 12:27, August 9, 2005

This thread is getting off-topic from the Leonard Cohen article. That is partially my fault, so I appologize for that. I have no intention of putting their article up for VFD, and neither does Jmabel. I do agree with his point, however, that there are probably hundreds, perhaps even over a thousand, covers of Cohen's material. An unrecorded cover by an ensemble that just touches on notability is out of scope of the article, especially as a catalog of every verifiable cover of a Cohen song would be unwieldy and cause the article to go beyond the size guideline in Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles. -Satori 19:46, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you about not linking them to the Cohen article. I just don't want their individual article taken down. I feel strongly about that. Sorry if we got off topic. Best regards. Merigorownd 12:55, August 9, 2005

Jmabel: I'll accept your objection to a link within the Leonard Cohen covered songs area. But I believe that since they have been on several national radio shows including NPR, West Coast Live and upcoming it's totally valid for them to have an article of their own. I am surprised that this came up as an issue and am glad that you don't object. Merigorownd 17:29, August 8, 2005

Cale or Cohen?

It says in the article "The third and fourth verses of the original lyrics were changed by Cale; Buckley, Crowe and Wainright use these lyrics; Bono and lang use the original." I believe this to be erroneous for three reasons. One, Cale is not given a songwriting credit for his addition to the song. Two, these lyrics appear as "additional lyrics" in the Cohen book of poetry "Stranger Music" on page 348 and Cale is not given credit for these new lyrics. Third, Cohen sings these new lyrics on "Cohen Live". There is no evidence that Cale wrote these lyrics, but I'll concede that Cale's version is the first time these new lyrics appeared on CD. 221.189.95.78 22:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC) ADD: The "Hallelujah" on "Cohen Live" is from a Halloween concert in 1988, predating "I'm Your Fan" (1991).221.189.95.78 22:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Sounds solid to me, please edit accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:54, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
• I thought that Cale had songwriting credit (see the allmusic entry for Fragments of a Rainy Season) but the additions always sounded very "Cohenesque" to me - ancient words made relevant to modern sensibilities that, from another pen, would be jarring - so I'm glad it was Leonard. --Fantailfan 15:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
  • That must be in error -- "Fragments" is a 1992 album, Mr. Cohen was singing those lyrics in 1988.
    • Indeed. Before Cale recorded his version of "Hallelujah" he asked for the lyrics. Cohen wrote back and reportedly sent him "all 15 verses" – of which some were recorded by Cohen for Various Positions (1984) and some others live in concert (starting 1988). – Hattrem 16:23, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

The photo

Suggestion: Change the photo to one where he's not wearing darkened glasses. Anyone have one that could be used? ... or is that pic particularly meaningful for some reason I'm not aware of? --Nephtes 22:38, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

It is his 2001 official photo from Ten New Songs booklet. Indeed I agree, but his latest 2004 photos for Dear Heather shows him with three days old beard, what's very unusla and rare for Cohen. Maybe we should use some other official 2001 photo, like those free promo photos from Sony, available here ([5]) - I vote for #2. Tomsak 13:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that would be a good choice. - Jmabel | Talk 00:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. That's our boy. – Hattrem 16:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Although a colour pic would be preferable, yeah, I think that one of those would be an improvement. #2 is good; agreed. Are they suitable in terms of copyright? --Nephtes 18:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Zionism

The following remark was kind of clumsily inserted into the "Early life" section: "Leonard Cohen, in his early and later life was a Zionist." I cut it, but only because it didn't sit well where it was. Cohen, as I understand it, has at least for most of his life pretty ardently supported Zionism, though obviously not to the point of making aliyah himself. We mention, accurately to the best of my knowledge (although it is uncited) "In 1973, Cohen toured Israel and performed at army bases during the Yom Kippur War." Should we perhaps have more on this? Does someone have citable material? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

My impression is that Cohen's approach to Judaism is more bound to tradition than zealousness. Although he stated that he doesn't need any other religion, he was also a Buddhist monk for five years and doesn't see any contradiction in that. – Hattrem 16:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That's fine, but has nothing to do with what I wrote. Zionism is primarily a secular Jewish movement, a movement of Jews as a people, not of Judaism as a religion. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

"Somewhat middle-class"

What the heck is meant by "a somewhat middle-class … family"? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:34, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?

There are several cases of POV in the article, most notably "Some of his songs, such as "Ballad of the Absent Mare" and "Hallelujah" are simply beautiful". Someone (with more experience than me) should go and correct them, if possible. Daniel (☎) 20:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

"1000 covers deep"

I think we should further prune the covers list, keeping only people who are/were famous or influential in their own right, ore where the cover was a hit. I would like to know the basis on which the following are included:

• Jean-Louis Murat
• Stina Nordenstam
• The Lilac Time
• No'am Peled
• Allison Crowe (who may barely make the cut)
• Talia Eliav
• Brian Hyland
• Robert Forster (I suspect this is not the person who it links to, but someone less known)

http://leonardcohenfiles.com/test.html is clearly trying to maintain a complete list. If you simply think this fact belongs on the web someplace, and they are lacking it, I'm sure they would love to add more examples, even obscure ones.

-- Jmabel | Talk 20:03, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

I think we can keep Allison Crowe - she seems to be up-and-comming, her cover of "Hallelujah" appears to be a major feature of her repertoire, and it was listed as song of the week by recordoftheday.com. I have no objection to striking the rest of your list. -Satori 15:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, instead of listing Jennifer Warnes next to every song she covered, should we just have a line saying something like "Jennifer Warnes released an album of Cohen covers titled Famous Blue Raincoat"? -Satori 15:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

How about us taking off the artists who participated in the tribute CDs and leaving them in the blurb about the various artist tribute CDs? I think mentioning their versions twice could be overboard.clay 23:34, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm with you on Jennifer Warnes. I'm a little hesitant about saying we drop things just because they were on tribute albums. Two very notable Cohen covers -- John Cale's "Hallelujah", which is probably considerably better known than Cohen's original, and R.E.M.'s "First, We'll Take Manhattan" -- come from tribute CDs. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:55, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Nobody is saying "drop things", just a suggestion to remove duplications. Another suggestion for the cover section is to only include covers that were hits for other artists as the criteria for incusion rather than fame of the performer which would make the entry more notable. People can argue the fame of a particular artist but no one can argue with Jennifer Warnes, Judy Collins etc. having significant success by recording a Leonard Cohen song, rather than filling out an album with one. clay 22:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm wary of criteria that would remove mention that his songs have been covered by Bob Dylan, John Cale, and R.E.M. For someone who did not know Cohen's own work, that would probably establish his stature more than the fact that Judy Collins had a hit with one of his songs or that the otherwise rather obscure (if excellent) Jennifer Warnes has built a lot of her career out of covering him. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:13, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

If you're after a complete list, Dave Van Ronk did a cover of "Bird on [a/the] Wire" - it's currently available on cd, "The Mayor of MacDougal Street: Rarities 1957-69", but was on the Polydor 24-4052 "Van Ronk" vinyl (cd info from Amazon, vinyl from Van Ronk unofficial fan site) - is Van Ronk famous, maybe not - NYC named a street after him... (KLB)

No, we are emphatically not after a complete list. There are over a thousand, and someone else maintains a perfectly good list; I say, "Let 'em. They're doing fine." I like Van Ronk and respect him as a scholar and performer, but would tend not to add this: he sung a lot of covers, so there in nothing particularly interesting about him singing a Leonard Cohen song. He sang a lot of Bertolt songs, but we don't mention him in the Bertolt Brecht article, nor should we (although if we did an article on interpreters of Brecht's songs, or something like that, I'd include him. I don't even think I'd include him in an article about interpreters of Cohen's songs: his "Bird on a Wire" isn't really all that different from the original, except that he has an even more gravelly voice. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent activity

User:Sunray has deleted one person's addition about Cohen's recent appearance on the grounds of it not being encyclopedic, but has left another (mine) intact - why? Personally I think something needs to be said about it; as I said, it was his first public appearance in 13 years, and therefore significant. --Richardrj 18:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. Your entry was about a notable event, it was well written and fitted in well with the section. The same cannot be said of the other addition. It was about a different and (as far as I can tell) not terribly notable event a few days after his first appearance. Or have I missed something? Sunray 18:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It looks like both entries were about the same event (the addition by 138.40.149.75 didn't state the date). Thus the second entry was a repeat of information already in the article. All the more reason to exclude it. I would add that the clip was poor quality, and was of Anjani singing with Leonard merely doing back-up. Sunray 19:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tweaking - it reads great now. --Richardrj 20:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Abortion stance

What is the specific source upon which the claims of Cohen's anti-abortion stance are based? I see some references to this via a Google search, but many are referencing Wikipedia (or copying it, of course). I have also seen sites stating that his opinion on the specific issue are not clear, despite his frequent metaphorical references to the subject (a reasonable argument in my opinion, considering the abosolutely tangled mass of metaphors he tends to employ). Fearwig 05:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The source is simply his lyrics. I'm pretty sure he has never made any comment on the matter in interviews. Lyrics would include those such as the following: "The only man of energy/ Yes the revolution's pride/ He trained a hundred women/ Just to kill an unborn child" (from 'Diamonds In The Mine') and "Destroy another fetus now/ We don't like children anyhow" (from 'The Future'). --Richardrj 11:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, the matter comes up in the lyrics quite a bit. Consider this, from 'You Know Who I Am':

Sometimes I need you naked,

sometimes I need you wild,

I need you to carry my children in

and I need you to kill a child.

<safe interpretation= inner child>

This, though, does not seem to be anti-abortion, does it?

We might think also of 'Story of Isaac', which is connected in a general way (see article):

You who build these altars now

to sacrifice these children,

you must not do it anymore.

<safe interpretation=sending own childern to make war, the words refer to abraham and isaac story.>

But here the references are clearly enough to war – the Vietnam war in particular, given the date of the song (1969) – and the sacrifice of one generation (the infantry!) by another (the old Abrahamic generals). I think this primary reference to war is less ambiguous than the article currently claims.

Noetica 12:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe there is a danger in trying to psychoanalyze a person and his belief system from a few lyrics. If Cohen says he's against abortion, that's one thing -- but to try to figure out his personal politics weened from a handful of lyrics -- that's great stuff for an poetry appreciation article but not an encyclopedia, I believe. Best to keep it as factual as possible. clay

I agree, Clay, more or less. I guess a bit of "poetry appreciation" is not out of place in discussion here, though. Provides comradely background analysis for the editors of the article to share. Some of them are obviously pretty serious Cohen scholars. Noetica 02:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There are many ways to interpret Cohen, but since it is obvious he intends an ambivalence in his lyrics, it's unfair to draw conclusions about Cohen's beliefs. Particularly because he's never been an activist, one way or another, when it comes to abortion. Thanks for raising the issue. I've deleted accordingly. Sandover 08:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Film info

Since the "I'm Your Man" film has its own section, I've removed a paragraph about it from the "recent activity" section. a) The film is not really an "activity" by Cohen, and b) the paragraph contained a lot of incorrect info anyways. --Nephtes 17:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't necessarily care to keep that paragraph, but it does seem to me that performing for the film with U2 and being interviewed extensively for it would constitute "activity". - Jmabel | Talk 22:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

POV in Music Section

While I'm glad there's a music section, I find it very annoying that one person's interpretation of those songs stands in the article. Cohen's lyrics are beautiful, ornate, mysterious, and it's very arrogant to think anyone could ever truly understand them. For instance, saying that Cohen describes his own politics in songs from The Future. Sez who? Who says he wasn't writing about a character? Who's to say he wasn't after something merely euphonic? I dislike not only the idea of one person's interpretation, but these interpretations in particular because they strike me as facile and lazy. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.198.201.145 (talk)

I agree. Lots of text here is laced with POV. I've been meaning to help get rid of it, but I haven't gotten around to it; I bet others feel the same way. Feel free to be bold and work on it yourself. --Allen 13:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm glad someone else agrees but I'm afraid that if I started rewriting it I would only add my own lazy, facile interpretations *or* preface what's there with a lot of flabby hedging, like "it could be argued that ..." I edited the section on DoaLM, and I think that shows a good direction, but obviously that's up to future editors. (Anyone know why the <ref> tag won't work? Is it incompatible with the direct links?)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.198.201.145 (talk)

Incorrect Discography

In the Music section, it states that "Everybody Knows" was on The Future, but in the Covers section, it states that it was on "I'm Your Man." I own The Future and it's not on that album. Can someone confirm which album it is on. - godospoons

I'm Your Man. Track 3. - Jmabel | Talk 05:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Covers again

Once again, the "covers" section is turning into a laundry list. There are easily 1,000 recorded versions of Cohen songs. We should only be mentioning those where at least one of the following applies:

• The artist is at least comparably well known (or comparably critically acclaimed) to Cohen. For example, Bob Dylan, Willie Nelson, The Neville Brothers.
• The cover was a chart hit, or featured in a film, etc. For example Judy Collins' version of Suzanne or John Cale's version of Hallelujah.
• Cohen was a clearly major influence on the artist; this should mean, at least, that Cohen merits mention in the article about them. For example, Jennifer Warnes.

I'm open to other rationales, but these are the ones I can see.

Can someone please explain why the following are notable enough to merit mention:

• Dax Riggs (I gather he's done several Cohen songs, but Cohen isn't mentioned in the article on him)
• The Prudes
• Carole Laure
• Madeleine Peyroux
• Thalia Zedek
• Washington Squares (love 'em, but they are pretty obscure)
• The Like
• Jonathan Coulton
• Sirenia - maybe for the weirdness of a metal band doing Cohen, but he apparently doesn't merit a mention in their article.
• Imogen Heap
• Elisa
• Gavin DeGraw
• Arooj Aftab - charming and all, but how notable?
• Kathryn Williams - again, a half-reasonable inclusion, but Cohen doesn't merit a mention in her article, while Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro and Joan Baez do.
• Kevin Max
• Ron Sexsmith (boy, there are a lot of second-rank Canadian performers in the list)
• Palaxy Tracks (who?)
• Noel Harrison - not exactly the big leagues, folks
• Deadboy & the Elephantmen (jeez, this is Dax Riggs again. Do we really need four mentions of this minor artist in an article on a major one.)
• Tom Russell

- Jmabel | Talk 06:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

A week has gone by. No defenses of any of them as meriting mention. Removing all. - Jmabel | Talk 07:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Too many uncontextualized quotes

Folks: this isn't Wikiquote. I intend to do a major trim on the quotations. I suggest that any of these that are not on Wikiquote be copied there, because all presumably do merit inclusion there. I'll hold off for a week. - Jmabel | Talk 07:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"The Partisan"

In the list of covers of Cohen songs:

• "The Partisan" covered by Noir Désir and 16 Horsepower

I don't know these two recordings, but the song itself is not a Cohen song: his version is a cover. Are these two recordings in some specific sense covers of Cohen's performance of the song? If not, they should be deleted from the list. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:12, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

Cohen changed the words quite a bit, too. The original had words meaning "then we'll return to the shade"; but Cohen sings "then we'll come from the shadows". See for example www.leonardcohensite.com/partisanfr.htm, where someone says "Je suis tres intrigué par le fait suivant: le dernier vers de la version originale, "Nous rentrerons dans l'ombre" est "traduit" en "Then we'll come from the shadows", soit "Puis nous sortirons de l'Ombre", c'est à dire l'inverse du sens supposé de la version originale." But this of course only gives further evidence that Cohen is a supreme poet (and in effect God, going incognito to the masses).

--Noetica 13:55, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So that means it should be clear whether they are doing Cohen's version or the original. Does someone who knows these recordings know? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:31, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Various versions of "Partisan" are not listed as covers of songs by Leonard Cohen in the long list (over 1040 titles now) at http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/test.html. Cohen recorded a song written by Anna Marly and Hy Zaret, and only made some relatively minor changes in the lyrics. (User:Fija 2 Aug 2005)

The Partisan was NOT written by Cohen. It is a song written by and for the French Resistance Movement. It was written by Anna Marly and Emmanuel d'Astier in London 1942 and was a direct attack at the fascists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.47.106.5 (talk • contribs) 29 September 2006.

You are replying to a conversation from a year ago. This has long since been sorted out. - Jmabel | Talk 18:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Years active?

Isn't it a bit misleading to say (in the info panel at the top of the article) that Cohen has been active since 1967? The article introduces him as a poet, novelist, and songwriter; surely then we should say he has been active since 1956, the year when his first poetry collection was published. R Lowry 21:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right. Clearly, someone was thinking only of his recording career. - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Soundtracks

The article cites that Lord of War used Jeff Buckley's version of Hallelujah, but to me it sounds more like John Cale's...I could be wrong, though, I don't have a copy of the film (and I only have Cale's version to compare it with anyway). Can anyone confirm if the version that appears in the film is really Buckley's? Archiesteel 15:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Polish Jews and Polish-Canadian

Cohen said in Poland today (on the radio of Trójka) that his family has roots in Poland and Eastern Europe at all. He feels as a Canadian with Jewish and Polish origin... So I will add him to Polish-Canadians category ;) Kowalmistrz 14:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Covers and Tribute Albums

I think it's a testament to Leonard Cohen to see so many people covering his songs...it's also an occasional problem on this page as the covers subsection sometimes becomes a laundry list...why not make another article for the covers (and include some of the less-known ones)? We could also add the tribute albums on there as well (since they're related). I propose to do it, I'll let everyone weigh in on it for a couple of days first. Archiesteel 01:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd be all for splitting that out to an article, and having one prosy paragraph here mentioning a few artists who are either at least as prominent as Cohen himself or for whom Cohen represents a major portion of their repertoire. - Jmabel | Talk 19:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm also in favor of the split. Should it be a subpage of this page, such as [[Leonard Cohen/Covers]], or should it be its own page, such as [[Covers of Leonard Cohen songs]]? - cgilbert^{(talk|contribs)} 04:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm in favor of a cover section but only for notable artists and recordings. At least 80% of what is currently there does not add to our understanding of Cohen. Other artist's Wikipedia entries do not have cover songs being listed like this, it is usually covered in a short paragraph. Perhaps listing the cover versions in the articles of the song itself is a better option, and have a short paragraph on "influences on other artists" in the body of the Leonard Cohen article. Also, I see Bob Dylan listed as having "recorded" a version of Hallelujah. I do not believe that Bob Dylan recorded this for any of his official releases. I do know he performed the song on tour, but only bootlegs are available (e.g. "A Legend in His Time").clay 03:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cohen Live.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Field Commander Cohen.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:More Best of Leonard Cohen.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:LeonardCohenImYourMan.gif

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Fair use rationale for Image:The Essential Leonard Cohen.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:The Best of Leonard Cohen.jpg

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Discography - Fair Use

The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content is not appropriate, and the images have been removed. Please do not restore them. -- Merope 18:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

drug use

im sure it doesnt warrant specific mention in the main article(s) but cohen sure seems to mention drug use (presumaly heroin) in at least two of his earlier songs, 'stranger song' and 'the butcher'. any info? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.183.21.218 (talk) 03:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

I know he mentions that he remembers being on speed when he wrote "Bird on the wire" in an interview with the BBC. But I don't think it really warrants a mention in the article.Arendedwinter 07:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

"Memorable quotes"

It strikes me that the 'Memorable Quotes' are completely subjective, and could include all of Leonard Cohen's writings if you get everyone's opinions. What, then, is the point? Tolo 18:01, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

Long list should be moved to Wikiquote; I would think no more than three here. I would also add that the list here seems very eccentric, virtually none of his most famous lines. - Jmabel | Talk 08:06, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

Enough already with all these random quotes from songs. I'd prefer personal quotes any day. – Hattrem 06:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

"Well, maybe there's a God above/ But all I've ever learned from love/ Was how to shoot somebody who outdrew ya"—from "Hallelujah" (1984) <- This line is from Jeff Buckley's version of Hallelujah so I removed it from the quotations list.

There's been way too many quotations in the list, in any case, but for what it's worth, the line is Cohen's, and is in the original of the song. - Jmabel | Talk 06:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"This line is from Jeff Buckley's version of Hallelujah so I removed it from the quotations" That line is actually from Cohen's 1988 version of Hallelujah. Buckley (and others) simply mixed verses from the 1984 and 1988 versions. The line is still Cohen's. Leatherwing 17:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Australian band Monsieur Camembert release 2CD set of Cohen material

Last week, Monsieur Camembert released the original cast recording of "Famous Blue Cheese - The Leonard Cohen Show". The album contains some of the most novel interpretations of Cohen songs ever recorded, and there are sound-samples at the following websites: http://www.myspace.com/monsieurcamembert http://www.myspace.com/mcfamousbluecheese

There is also a 2hr Cohen special recorded for ABC Radio in Australia, which contains 10 songs from the new album... You can listen for the next 2 weeks at...http://www.abc.net.au/rn/weekendplanet/stories/2007/1947823.htm To purchase the album, please visit... http://www.islandwebs.com.au/applications/search/search_result.asp?ItemID=762

Monsieurcamembert 08:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)Cheers, Yaron Hallis

Offhand, I see nothing notable about this, and the above at least borders on being an ad. - Jmabel | Talk 17:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

External links

It is always a bad sign when the External links section needs subheadings for navigation. Can a knowledgeable editor do some radical pruning? Jkelly 21:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. Any problems, drop me a line. -- Funky Monkey  (talk)  00:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where to put this but the references #3 and #10 seem to be the same - #3 is a copy of the list at #10. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.67.224 (talk) 18:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Spelling

All spelling on this page should be in Canadian English, due to the fact that Cohen is Canadian. --Zippanova 05:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But living and working in the US. Is Cohen's own spelling Canadian English? (His first novel is called The Favorite Game.) -- Hattrem 07:26, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How does Cohen being Canadian mean that all spelling on that page should be Canadian English? Gronky 16:51, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)

Your reprint may be spelled that way, but its first appearance in print was as The Favourite Game (printed in London, Secker & Warburg, 1963). Sandover 16:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Printed in London, yes. The 1963 Viking Press edition reads "The favorite game, a novel" according to The Library of Congress. Anyway, I guess it's not all that relevant. I think Gronky has a point. Consistency is the key in my opinion. – Hattrem 04:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm all for consistency, and while it may not be my favorite way of spelling, I am content with the North American (U.S.) spelling standard. We should remember that this micro-quarrel about spelling wouldn't even exist had Cohen not published and recorded so widely, in different genres, in different countries and at different times. A lot of cultures would like to put a claim on him, obviously. Sandover 21:12, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cohen is without a doubt Canadian. Anyone other culture who wishes to make him their "own" is fooling themselves. Yes, he has lived in Europe and the US for some time, but that doesn't mean that he is suddenly not Canadian. This is especially true when you consider that throughout most of his career he has been close to ignored by almost all Americans. (unsigned, but apparently User:Dogmusic2005 17 Aug 2005)

(Reply, years later, to Sandover) Note that there is no "North America" spelling. The USA has its own special way of spelling some words, and Canada has another (much closer to British spelling). Thus I would go with "favourite" in this article. --Gronky (talk) 20:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Renditions by other singers, once again

Renditions by other singers has once again become a long list of mostly not-too-notable cover versions. I've trimmed it before, I'm not doing it this time, but it should be done. Given that we link externally to a page that attempts to be comprehensive about this, it doesn't seem to accomplish anything to create a half-assed version of that page here.

I strongly suggest that the list be confined to:

• Hit versions
• Versions by figures at least as well known as Cohen himself(e.g. John Cale, Johnny Cash, Tori Amos)
• Notable performers for whom Cohen was a major influence (e.g. Judy Collins, Jennifer Warnes). These should be cases where a mention of Cohen would belong in the article about that person.
• Also, we might want to keep more comprehensive paragraphs about a few truly widely covered songs, such as "Suzanne" or "Hallelujah", though these really could be moved to articles about the songs in question.

This means dropping mentions of perfectly nice performers like The Dukhs, the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and Roy Buchanan. Again, someone else is being exhaustive, we don't have to. - Jmabel | Talk 17:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree, except that I'd say "confined at most to...." In fact, I think this section should say something like "Leonard Cohen's" songs have been recorded by many other singers" and then list just a few examples. I think the "soundtrack" section should read like this too. TheScotch (talk) 09:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Vegetarian?

Hi, can anyone please provide sources that prove that Leonard Cohen is vegetarian? Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 06:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I hope I'm not bursting any bubbles here, but Leonard is not (currently) a vegetarian. Sandover 16:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

In the biographical film Ladies and Gentlemen Mr. Leonard Cohen, Cohen implied that, at that time, 1965, he had stopped eating meet, which made him feel more honorable when, for example, he patted a dog. TRoethke (talk) 14:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

POV in THEMES

I agree with the above statements in MUSIC about personal interpretations of Cohen's lyrics without quotes of him as evidence of his intentions when he wrote them. Peronally, I feel that this line, in 'Themes' is another example:

"Coming Back to you" and "If It Be Your Will" are clearly addressed to a Judeo-Christian God."

Now if there is a direct quote from LC confirming this, it should be included with that statement. If there isn't such a quote, this should be removed. Someone's personal interpretations of cryptic poetry being explained as 'clearly' meaning something, while other interpretations are just as possible should really be avoided. For one thing, both songs, but especially 'Coming back to you' could more simply be explained as a song about love for a woman. It's not as if LC is averse to writing about that topic either. Not to mention that lines like

"Even in your arms I know, I'll never get it right. Even when you bend to give me Comfort in the night"

sound more like love for a woman to me. Is it possible it's all metaphor for love for a personal god? Sure, but then a quote from him should be included to prove that. The reason I took the line out already is that the wiki article dedicated to the songs' album 'Various Positions', declares the 'Coming Back to You' an 'unusually straightforward love song'. Consistency would be better, I think. If anyone disagrees, or has any quotes proving this subjective POV, please let me know. (ArcodH 16:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC))

The entire "Themes" section is a swamp of POV and "original research", and the only likely remedy is my view is to eliminate the entire section. The article will be much better without it. TheScotch (talk) 05:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

References in popular culture: fair warning

If anyone wants to preserve any of the entries in this section, he should find a way to incorporate them into the main article as soon as possible. "Trivia sections are discouraged in Wikipedia", and this one is going soon. Grab what you value now. TheScotch (talk) 05:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Is Cohen's place in popular culture trivial? And is the fact that trivia sections are discouraged a requirement to delete it? Discouraged doesn't seem like a word that mandates any particular course of action. I recommend that this effort be directed toward improving the

content rather than its destruction. --SSBohio 17:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: "Is Cohen's place in popular culture trivial?":

The section title is obviously a euphemism for "trivia". Any explanation of Cohen's real place in culture, popular or other, (which of course would not involve a series of randomly arranged miscellaneous and unconnected entries) belongs in the main body of the article. TheScotch (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: "I recommend that this effort be directed toward improving the content rather than its destruction.":

If you care to preserve any of the current entries, you will find a way to incorporate them into the main body of the article. Please do not add anything to this section; it's going to be deleted. TheScotch (talk) 18:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: "And is the fact that trivia sections are discouraged a requirement to delete it?":

As a practical matter, trivia sections are indefensible--or un-defendable, let's say. Trivia sections can survive for an indeterminate time as long as they aren't challenged, but once challenged, they're pretty much doomed. I didn't attach the trivia sticker to this one, and for aught I know whoever did may never return, but someone was bound eventually to follow through--as in this case I've vowed to. TheScotch (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a dismissive tone as at all helpful in this matter. At the very least, meet me halfway by admitting that my perspective is worthy as well, rather than disparaging the work of others and, by extension, denying that any view but your own should hold sway. --SSBohio 02:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Until I read your words, I had no idea this was a fait accompli. While I appreciate your saying "please," why would I or anyone else heed your pronouncement about what should or shouldn't be in this article, rather than working by consensus? We're best served by collaborating on this project, not issuing ultimata to each other. --SSBohio 02:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a very collaborative way to move forward. I don't accept that the section is indefensible because you state it so. How and why is it indefensible? Further, anything that's pretty much doomed is not, in fact, doomed at all. In actuality, your response reinforces my point: that a thing's being discouraged is not the same as its being forbidden. A recommendation shouldn't be confused with a proscription. Even the {{trivia}} template doesn't call for wholesale deletion.

To put it another way, suppose I took the opposite approach and vowed to keep the in popular culture section in the article. How would that be? Vowing to keep anything in or out of an article is counterproductive, since the content of any article is determined by consensus.

I'm interested in working with you to improve the article. I'm not interested in having content unilaterally removed. What do you think? Can we collaborate to improve this article without stripping it of content and decontextualizing Cohen's work? --SSBohio 02:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of placing your remarks where they belong chronologically. Interpolating them into my remarks is tantamount to editing my remarks, which I've not given you permission to do.

Re: "I don't see a dismissive tone as at all helpful in this matter. At the very least, meet me halfway by admitting that my perspective is worthy as well, rather than disparaging the work of others and, by extension, denying that any view but your own should hold sway.":

1) You are not invited or welcome to critique my "tone" or anyone else's. 2) I am not obliged to meet you "halfway" where I think you are entirely wrong, and I call things the way I see them. 3) I'm not "disparaging" anyone or anyone's work here. 4) The "view" I've expressed is simply the official wikipedia "view".

Re: "I don't accept that the section is indefensible because you state it so. How and why is it indefensible? Further, anything that's pretty much doomed is not, in fact, doomed at all. In actuality, your response reinforces my point: that a thing's being discouraged is not the same as its being forbidden. A recommendation shouldn't be confused with a proscription. Even the {{trivia}} template doesn't call for wholesale deletion.":

1) Notice my phrase "as a practical matter". It's indefensible because it will not withstand. This is the way of challenged trivia sections in wikipedia, and I'm speaking purely from experience. 2) I qualified "doomed" with "pretty much" to allow for the possibility that some trivia sections may have magically escaped, not to suggest that trivia sections ultimately inhabit some sort of limbo. "Pretty much" used in this way is a common figure of speech with which you may wish to acquaint yourself. 3) The template explains that entries (all entries) within a trivia section worth retaining should be incorporated into the main body of the article. Obviously, if all entries have either been incorporated or deleted, the section itself will be empty and a candidate for "wholesale deletion". Essentially, you are misreading the template.

Re: "To put it another way, suppose I took the opposite approach and vowed to keep the in popular culture section in the article. How would that be? Vowing to keep anything in or out of an article is counterproductive, since the content of any article is determined by consensus.":

1) Vow that if you like, but it won't do you any good. 2) I'm not vowing "to keep anything in or out of [the] article"; I'm merely vowing to (warning you that I'm about to) delete this section. If you're concerned about being "counterproductive", you'll find something else to do at wikipedia (or outside wikipedia) because this little war you're attempting to wage is a lost cause. 3) The "consensus" is that trivia sections don't belong in wikipedia.

Once again: if you think anything in the section is worth preserving, you will find a way to incorporate it into the main body of the article. Do it soon because the section is going. TheScotch (talk) 04:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You evidence a belief that you lay exclusive claim to what should be removed from this article, as well as treating my arguments with derision. As you've chosen to interpret my reply as editing your comments, I'll remove all doubt and give this reply below, where it doesn't directly address each of your comments:

1. I've taken the liberty of placing your remarks where they belong chronologically -- You assert (by begging the question) that my remarks were in the wrong place to begin with, rather than making an actual argument. All I know so far is that your opinion differs from mine, which, in itself, is neither surprising nor helpful.
2. Interpolating them into my remarks is tantamount to editing my remarks, which I've not given you permission to do -- Your remarks remained unedited. This assertion is factually incorrect. You chose to break my response up into separate topics and reply to each individually. If I've done anything, it was to follow your lead and respond to each of your points in turn.
3. You are not invited or welcome to critique my "tone" or anyone else's. Actually, I was already invited to do so, by virtue of being an equal part of this project; I need no invitation from you. The tone of an editor's contributions is as much a subject for fair comment as any other aspect of those contributions. Your tone is unhelpful. I've explained why.
4. I am not obliged to meet you "halfway" where I think you are entirely wrong, and I call things the way I see them. -- I'm not asking you to agree that I'm half-right, just that you're not the only one who gets to have input here. Dismissing my concerns out of hand is both rude and anticollaborative. One can, presumably, call things as they see them without rancor or condescension.
5. I'm not "disparaging" anyone or anyone's work here. -- The facts belie your statement. You're not only asserting that other editors' contribution of the in popular culture section aren't worth keeping, but that they are so worthless as to be unworthy of dicussion about whether they should be kept. Taking this position disparages the work of others and makes a mockery of collaboration and consensus.
6. The "view" I've expressed is simply the official wikipedia "view". -- Except for a few very specific areas (like copyright), there is no such thing as the official wikipedia view; Policy is determined by consensus, not by official decree. What you've expressed is not simply that the view you espouse is right; it's that no other view could or should be expressed.
7. Notice my phrase "as a practical matter". -- I already had. That's why I replied to it.
8. It's indefensible because it will not withstand. -- You're saying that it's indefensible because it will not withstand attack, that it's indefensible because it's indefensible. You beg the question to the point of tautology.
9. This is the way of challenged trivia sections in wikipedia, and I'm speaking purely from experience. -- I appreciate that you're willing to assert a factual basis for your view. However, there isn't enough here to go on. What has your experience been? The importance of past history is tempered by the fact that consensus can change.
10. I qualified "doomed" with "pretty much" to allow for the possibility that some trivia sections may have magically escaped, not to suggest that trivia sections ultimately inhabit some sort of limbo. -- The qualification makes the doom less than mandatory. Your assertion is that not only can the section go, but that it must.
11. "Pretty much" used in this way is a common figure of speech with which you may wish to acquaint yourself. -- I can assure you that my reading comprehension is such that I understand the meaning of the phrase pretty much. Was it my language skills, my concentration, or my intelligence that you meant to impugn? A thing's being pretty much doomed means that the thing isn't doomed in every case. The use of these weasel words gives lie to your view that this in popular culture section must conclusively go, regardless of any discussion.
12. The template explains that entries (all entries) within a trivia section worth retaining should be incorporated into the main body of the article. Obviously, if all entries have either been incorporated or deleted, the section itself will be empty and a candidate for "wholesale deletion". Essentially, you are misreading the template. -- There is - to use your term despite its objectionable tone - an obvious difference between what should be and what must be. Nothing you've cited requires the deletion of this section; the most the template does is to recommend that the information be incorporated elsewhere. The mandate you claim doesn't exist in the evidence you've cited.
13. Vow that if you like, but it won't do you any good. 2) I'm not vowing "to keep anything in or out of [the] article"; I'm merely vowing to (warning you that I'm about to) delete this section. -- You explicitly vowed to remove this content from the article. To now say that you're not vowing to do so contradicts your own assertion. A vow is a sacred pledge; Its meaning is distinct from a warning. Committing to a course of action regardless of consensus is anticollaborative.
14. If you're concerned about being "counterproductive", you'll find something else to do at wikipedia (or outside wikipedia) because this little war you're attempting to wage is a lost cause. -- I think that consensus is a bedrock principle of this project, and, as such, is worth defending. You've asserted that you're committed to this deletion regardless of consensus and have gone so far as to dismiss anyone else's view as unworthy of consideration. As to the war you accuse me of waging, I don't see it; I'm trying to discuss this matter with you. A war is an entirely different sort of thing.
15. The "consensus" is that trivia sections don't belong in wikipedia. -- You claim this as consensus, but you resist sny discussion of the necessity of this deletion. If consensus is as you cliam it is, then discussion will only serve to bolster your case. Why, then, do you resist even the idea that there's something to discuss?
16. Once again: if you think anything in the section is worth preserving, you will find a way to incorporate it into the main body of the article. Do it soon because the section is going. -- A restated ultimatum is no less an ultimatum the second time than the first. Between the tone of command and the unilateral assertion, you make clear that nothing anyone else has to say on the subject is of the slightest concern to you. We're meant to resolve our disputes by discussion, rather than by running roughshod over those we disagree with.

In the final analysis, I have no direct interest in this particular matter. So far, I've never edited this article one way or another. Your approach to this matter is the only reason I'm here.

You've come here and announced that you won't be judging individual contributions to this section on their merits; Rather, someone else should do that work for you if they want any of this content kept, which isn't geared toward improving this article by consensus and collaboration. The process of click edit section, select all, delete isn't editing. As with any other variety of wholesale destruction, it doesn't consider improving the content to be its goal. Removing content is never an end in & of itself. It is merely a means of improving an article. As you've admitted that there may be usable material in the section you intend to delete, then, by extension, your stated intent is to delete any usable material along with the cruft. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater would be a bad decision for a legal guardian, just as throwing out useful content with useless is a bad decision for an editor. Is that actually the course you wish to pursue? --SSBohio 17:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Portrait

I've added a portrait by Ines Zgonc, which does seem to capture how the guy is (or appears to be) at the moment. I suspect it will be controversial, being a painting rather than a "real image" (sic). Please could editors discuss it's merits rather than just remove it: the other most recent picture on the article is over 30 years old (and Ines's work is getting rather good). --Simon Speed (talk) 19:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

He isnt black.

"His work often explores the themes of religion, isolation, sexuality, and complex interpersonal relationships. He is also black."

I presume this is a joke? I cant seem to edit this out though. Please, do so, or explain what you mean in sensical terms.

Thanks, Brock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.114.141.250 (talk) 14:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Its been sorted. BrockFettes (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Eastern Europe

This new paragraph is total nonsense! His songs were NEVER banned, quite contrary, together with Dylan, his was very popular from very beginning. In former Yugoslavia, his early LPs were pressed by the local Columbia company (Suzy) and also imported. This complete sectionn is better to be removed, and Zembaty-phenomenon could be put somewhere else. As for Hungary, that's not verified. Also, complete tribute CD was also produced in Croatia (Ibrica Jusic) and the Czech Republic (Juraj Kukura), and songs were covered in Slovenia, Russia, etc. Croatian singer-songwriter/poet Arsen Dedic recorded trbute album in 1970s, but it was never released due to technical problems (4 songs resurfaced recenly from the studio, and apparently the mastertape was damaged after the sessions but before the release, so the project was abandoned as Dedic fell into depression, what's all referenced in various articles at Croatian Cohen site). Tomsak (talk) 19:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

BBC Radio 4 / Front Row

There was a really good interview (30 mins) on Radio 4's front row programme. This will be available for 7 days under the listen again feature. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/frontrow/past_programmes.shtml

There might be some useful information to be gleaned from this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.249.2.158 (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

"Controversy"

I am reverting the insertion of the following material:

According to the BBC website Leonard Cohen has decided not to be recorded for TV or radio on his 2008 tour. It was indeed surprising that Cohen's set at Glastonbury (one of the major artists to perform there in recent years) was not broadcast live whilst many obscure bands were shown live on the BBC. Many users on Youtube have uploaded his performance anyway. (Search youtube for multiple sources). In a controversial action fans are calling for a boycott of the tour DVD when it comes out.

Per WP:BLP, "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source." The only source cited, the BBC, does support the first sentence of the disputed material, but none of the rest of it. Without any context, there is no reason to include the statement that he has decided not to be recorded for TV or radio during his tour. The rest of the material is completely unsourced, and must therefore be removed. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

References

Recent deletions

I think the recent deletions should be restored in part. The renditions section really waited for one brave death stroke like User:Be Black Hole Sun's. But he removed with it some of the simple discography, as if the studio albums should somehow stand for the rest Cohen's releases too. The user who scrolls directly to what purports to be a discography now may remain ignorant of their existence altogether. His newly created separate discography page is detailed enough to merit preserving without presenting some items exclusively. Perhaps he has just not checked carefully what he removed.

I found the objection for listing tribute albums MOS:DISCOG#What_should_not_be_included here. I cannot understand it. They show an important level of notability and reception an artist has achieved and show how he inspired and whom. Of course, there is no need to make make trivia out of it, and the albums are not equally notable.

The Film section is not about his acting career, but about films he is affiliated with in various ways: singing performances, interviews, reading poetry, writing and narrating (I have seen none.) Again, some may be cleaned-up individually. I don't see how they are they less proper for our readership the basic discography. It will be useless to bother the readers with opening another page for this details, especially considering how few they are, but if it is decided they will migrate, their page should be created now, before they are lost under newer edits. Will Be Black Hole Sun volunteer? trespassers william (talk) 21:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Look at The Who, Soundgarden, Led Zeppelin or other artist pages only studio albums are listed. Why studio albums are the most notable ones and its a link to the discography page and you have it on the template. Tribute albums are not album as i've read and if its so importent have them in a category as they do with the pink floyd ones. --Be Black Hole Sun (talk) 07:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Join the rock music project

Join the rock music project today, it needs your help. --Be Black Hole Sun (talk) 08:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Interview about songwriting

I found an excellent interview by Leonard Cohen about his songs and songwriting. It would provide a lot of information to add to the article. I included it also in the External Links for reference. I may come back later and see what can be developed from using it as a source. In the meantime, maybe someone else has more time now. For such an important person in the music world, his article could really use some more information.

• Leonard Cohen, Los Angeles 1992, From Songwriters on Songwriting, by Paul Zollo

Agadant (talk) 17:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well i wouldn't say his article need more expanding but his albums may need it. --Be Black Hole Sun (talk) 18:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Theatre

Removed the following which had been in the　Titles and Honours section - is this in anyway significant, or just an attempt at publicity?

• In December 2008, One Yellow Rabbit theatre company will mount their play DOING LEONARD COHEN at the Young Centre for the Performing Arts. The play is a hallucinatory-stream-of-consciousness-homage and features 50 poems from his early works along with an enhanced treatment of the novel Beautiful Losers.

May be worth reinstating if the play ever tours or received some level of critical acclaim or popularity.

Dunxd (talk) 11:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Shrek

Yes, I'm quite sure that is Cale in Shrek. It's a slightly censored version of his recording; I can't now remember what they left out, but I remember that when I saw the movie I was thinking "what a wonderful recording to use here" and then found myself going, "that's not exactly how it went..." -- Jmabel | Talk 20:50, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

No, it's definetly Rufus Wainwright, according to the amazon page for the soundtrack album (and my own ears). Pyrop 21:29, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

Really? Damn, he is definitely covering Cale's arrangement then. It's note for note. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:59, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

You're both right: the version in the movie is Cale, but the version on the soundtrack is Wainwright. If you search google for 'shrek soundtrack John Cale' you'll find several sites saying that. Tolo 10:45, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

Right. It's Cale in the movie, and Wainwright's on the soundtrack CD. This is not entirely unrelated to the fact that Wainwright is signed with Dreamworks SKG, and had an album coming out at the same time as the Shrek soundtrack. PS : Liked the reversion comment "lack of consensus"; that would be one way to phrase it, certainly :) -- GWO

I'm four years late to this discussion, but the censored line was 'Maybe there's a God above' (just before 'but me, all I ever learned from love...'). It cut out those bars altogether, not just the words, which caused a rather jarring break in the rhythm. --144.53.226.17 (talk) 00:42, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Award win!

A winner at the 2009 Meteor Awards tonight! --Candlewicke _S^T _# :) 02:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Death of a Ladies' Man

Whoever wrote up the paragraph about this album in the music sub-section was clearly not a fan of the album. I don't know but unbacked claims like "The recording of the album was a complete fiasco" and "The end result is often thought gaudy and ostentatious, and Cohen's songwriting on this album is also thought to be some of his weakest" sound just a wee bit POV to me. Personally I love the album and the only reviews I've read of it have been overwhelmingly positive. That said, I know it was a controversial pair-up and was very much unlike anything Cohen had previously done or has done since. I've also read that Cohen himself didn't like the album but that still doesn't prove that it was "a complete fiasco" or "often thought gaudy and ostentatious." I'd like to see some sources for these comments or else I'm going to take them down. ... and I guess I forgot to sign this.--Lairor 01:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Those would be flagged or removed as being weasel words. -Rolypolyman (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

New album and tour, and agent/financial problems

There are some developments that deserve mention I think. I think others more qualified should make the actual entries. I couldn't figure out how to add the album.

1. New CD and DVD albums have been released, "Leonard Cohen - Live in London", apparently his only live concert release. It was released in 2009 and was recorded live in a concert in the O₂ Arena in London on July 17, 2008.

2. He is on a major world tour, "Leonard Cohen WORLD TOUR '09"

In the interests of completeness at least some mention should be made of his financial and legal difficulties. These problems are probably at least part of the reason he is on tour now. (Lucky for us.)

JFistere (talk) 05:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The new live album is listed in the discography. (By the way it's his fourth live album, not his first.) The legal difficulties and the tour are both mentioned in the article. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Converts to buddhism

I'm not sure if this category is appropriate, since he never left Judaism. It's not really 'converting' if you keep your old religion. Zazaban (talk) 05:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. He is not, and never has been, a Buddhist. I'm going to remove that sucker. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Cohen was officially ordained as a Zen Buddhist monk on August 9, 1996: [6]. Practicing or converting to Buddhism is not unusual among Jews; it doesn't necessarily mean they give up their "Jewish" identity, but they do acquire an additional identity as Buddhists. -- Softlavender (talk) 22:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

See "Leonard Cohen: Several Lifetimes Already", Shambala Sun, and "On the Road, for Reasons Practical and Spiritual ", NY Times: “Well, for one thing, in the tradition of Zen that I’ve practiced, there is no prayerful worship and there is no affirmation of a deity. So theologically there is no challenge to any Jewish belief.” Hyacinth (talk) 23:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification on "Advert" template

Given that the advert template has recently been added to the article, I would like to hear from the person that added it which passages they think reflect an advertisement-like tone. If we can identify the problematic passages, we can work on correcting them. If I don't see any concrete suggestions here as to what needs fixing, we can remove the tag as unactionable in a day or so. --Jayron32 06:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) 86.149, you can't just slap a tag like that on the page without providing some good justification for it. The article does not read like an advert and does not require cleaning up. Sure it may need work but what article doesn't. You may be confusing self-promotion with NPOV, of which there is a certain amount there and which has already been tagged as such. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 06:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to weigh in here. I also think this bio is grossly slanted in Leonard Cohen's favour. I mean, saying things like, "he is extremely well-regarded by critics" - excuse me - excuse me - that is an oxymoron. And what is the source? Is it, say, the Toronto Globe and Mail??? Is it any legitimate well-regarded source??? No, it's a single source, something called "All Music". And as we all know, these types of write-ups either beatify or condemn the subject - something the Globe and Mail (and any other legitimate source) does not do. This is a ridiculous bio. This Wiki bio is laughable. Leonard Cohen. Extremely this, and extremely that. Leonard Cohen is an extremely incredible person, with extreme talents and is extremely enigmatic. Why not just say that he is an oddball. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.200.174 (talk) 03:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Um, Allmusic is actually a recognized professional music website which is used as a source in literally thousands of articles on WP. If you don't like the word "extremely", feel free to replace it with something more neutral. Tag removed. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Genres

When I looked at this article today, the genres included Blues and World Music. For the life of me, I cannot see any connection between Cohen's music and Blues but the non-happy tone of a lot of the songs. But that's not what defines the music genre "Blues". Blues is a style involving the use of microtones and often involves certain basic chord sequences, neither of which are relevant to Cohen's work. World Music also seemed wrong. True, a few songs like Dance Me To The End Of Love have some ethnic instrumentation. But a few such touches scattered across five decades don't turn an artist into a World Music artist -- any more than the Beatles would be considered World Music because a couple of their songs contain a sitar and tablas. Accordingly, I edited the Genre area to eliminate those genres. If someone disagrees with me, let's discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Garyrob (talk • contribs) 17:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Leonard Cohen quality of singing

LauriJean: yes he sort of sings in an interesting way... kind of ethereal and constipated and conversationally spooky...

but very very earnest209.34.132.110 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 21:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Music in "Kiss the Sky"

There are many Cohen's songs in the movie Kiss the Sky (film). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0127629/soundtrack ISasha (talk) 07:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Scientology?

Wikipedia article List of Scientologists claims Cohen was a scientologist. This article does not mention it. If it is true, it deserves mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jirka6 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Its well sourced so it should be added. Thanks, SqueakBox 06:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Er, well-sourced to what? It would surprise me if it was well-sourced, on account of it's false. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 12:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Leonard Cohen has says that he "looked into" Scientology Arnold the Frog (talk) 13:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

http://www.webheights.net/speakingcohen/jewish.htm

and the harsh reality of AIDS: "… the naked man and woman/ Are just a shining artifact of the past."

i'd like to see some sort of fact to support this claim - i can't see how this relates to AIDS or any other desease. as far as i knowm this line refers to Adam & Eve in the garden of Eden, as a symbol of religion (perhaps institutionalized religion). i.e. the religion is just a relic in everyday's life. something that's admired for is beauty but isn't taken seriously anymore. Pclz (talk) 07:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Arnold the Frog (talk) 13:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Start by reading the entire stanza, which is about as clear as you could hope for without actually naming AIDS.

See also LC's own comment at http://www.webheights.net/speakingcohen/mus0788.htm

Barrier methods = not naked.

I don't want to clutter up the main page with a reference to something which shouldn't be controversial.

Adam and Eve probably are referenced, but surely as exemplars of original innocence?

What's all this about Amnesty International and NGOs?

Arnold the Frog (talk) 13:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC) - apologies, tildes missing when I first posted The existing link to http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=1970323 is broken (I can't find an archive for this site). A public statement can be found at http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/025/2009/en/4f6becdc-e532-4f64-a755-c598a6c16e91/mde150252009en.pdf This indeed says that "Amnesty International has taken no position on boycotts anywhere in the world", which is plainly intended to squash suggestions that AI supported a boycott. However, on the NGO question it says merely that the intention was to distribute money to benefit "the Parents Forum: Bereaved Parents for Peace and Reconciliation and other Israeli and Palestinian NGOs". I am unable to wrestle this statement, both positive and vague, into an explanation why Leonard Cohen's approach was rejected.

Much more relevant is the later sentence "Given the different requirements of AI's work and that of the Fund both have agreed that at this point AIUSA will withdraw from active involvement with the Fund." My own wild uninstructed guess is that Cohen is not demanding that Israel abandon the Occupied Territories, and that AI sees this as pussyfooting around the "real" issue, but is there any public documentation out there?

His manager who died in 1988?

This article says about Kelley Lynch that "Back in 1988, she'd been working as an assistant to his then-manager, who died that year." Is the manager the article refers to John Hammond? Was he Cohen's manager? --217.232.173.115 (talk) 21:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Shabbat observance

The article claims that Leonard Cohen observes shabbat even when on tour. Yet, on Friday 17 September 2010, Leonard Cohen gave a concert (in Grenoble) while the sun had clearly set. A concert, for a professional performing artist, certainly counts as work. David.Monniaux (talk) 20:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

This statement appears in a quote from the New York Times. Do we have a policy about quoting statements that a verifiably untrue and not notable for themselves? Rama (talk) 08:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Or it may be that Cohen once observed shabbat while on tour, but stopped doing so. In any case, this section should be reworded. David.Monniaux (talk) 07:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Is the Order of Canada really the highest civilian honour?

"Companion of the Order of Canada, the nation's highest civilian honour" I was under the impression that the Order of Merit outranked the Order of Canada? For that matter I though that the Royal Victorian Order also outranked the Order of Canada? Threadnecromancer (talk) 00:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)Threadnecromancer

I guess they mean honours awarded by Canada itself, which is true, as opposed to the highest award in Canada but which is awarded by the Queen, also true. The Victorian Order is a little further down the pecking list. Moriori (talk) 01:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

BA , LL.D?

Why I am removing these:

1. BA - half the adults in North America must have a BA, we do not normally list that, why list it here?

Cite your source. Simply not true.

1. LL.D - from where, when? Honorary, at best, I presume, since his biography doesn't mention law school. We do not normally list honorary degrees after the names. Nearly every prominent figure of the last 50 years has honorary doctorates.

Jmabel | Talk 04:19, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Dr. Henry Kissinger, perhaps you've heard of him, he was prominent a while back. An honorary doctorate.

Dr. Bill Cosby, wrote about a cartoon show he voiced. An actual doctorate. Go figure.

Henry Kissinger received a PhD in International Relations from Harvard University in 1954 -- not an honorary one. http://www.nndb.com/people/357/000022291/

SilverHike (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

BA English (McGill) 1955, honorary LLD (Dalhousie) 1971, honorary D LITT (McGill) 1992. - From The Canadian Encyclodeia [7] Tomsak 13:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

PS: McGill was - according to Nadel's biography - actually the law college. Even poets teached Cohen law there. Tomsak 13:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Sourcing

I'm a fan of Cohen for over 30 years now. I love Leonard Cohen Files website and the Leonard Cohen Forum. However, those are 1) a fan site 2) an internet chat forum. Even if they enlist Leonard's cooperation, it's still a fan site run by one man (that we are very blessed to have on earth) and a chat room. I question their use as a reference in this biography, which they are extensively. The fan site itself says its material is fully referenced by other sources; those sources should be directly used if they meet WP:RS. Using a chat forum as a source for a BLP sets off all sorts of red flags. Sorry to be a bummer, but this is a BLP. There are many wonderful published biographies of Cohen; they should be used primarily. Other events like tours and current events related to Cohen can be sourced from WP:RS sources. Cookiehead (talk) 00:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Lead section

The lead section for this article is too long and is a breach of WP:LEAD. It will need a strict copy edit and streamline if this article ever hopes to progress to GA status. -- Cassianto (talk) 00:36, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Good point. Jpcohen (talk) 04:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree. It deals a lot with the person's perceived notability, often bordering on wp:POV through its wealth of praise. At the same time it lacks a clear summary of many important biographical facts.--Paracel63 (talk) 11:42, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

This orginal criticism that was aimed at the LEAD was written in regards to this article as it existed in Dec. 2011, not now. The LEAD was cut down significantly since then (it was at least three times larger than it is now). So, in my opinion, the original criticism of the LEAD has since been rectified. But these things can always use tweaking.Jpcohen (talk) 22:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Bruce Eder

I think what Bruce Eder has to say about Leonard Cohen in the second paragraph is unnecessary. 134.226.56.7 (talk) 12:37, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Citizenship

Cohen has lived in the US since the 70s or 80s, right? He's never become a US citizen and still identifies himself as "Canadian"? Laval (talk) 22:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Hallelujia

"Hallelujia" was performed 3 times in the TV series "The O.C.". Twice by Jeff Buckley (1 Season, episodes 2 and 27), and once by Imogen Heap (season 3 episode 25). The song was used for the maximum emotional effect each time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.66.107.132 (talk) 04:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Why does "hallelujah" merit is own section? It's just one of many songs. If it is widely regarded as his most influential song, and that is why the song has its own section here, then that needs to be made clear (and cited!). Also, this song's section is just a paired-down duplicate of that song's own page, so it seems redundant where a link could suffice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.78.156 (talk) 18:16, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree. The section Hallelujah is under his recording career, which is sorted by decades. I think the Hallelujah article link and some of its information should be added to the "1980s" section. Many of his other frequently-covered songs (such as Suzanne and Song Long, Marianne) also have their Wikipedia articles, but that doesn't mean that they should have an independent section in the Leonard Cohen article. Zen Light (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

THEME: Love and Sex

I don't understand the value of the sentence "Almost every song that Cohen has written could be interpreted as being about love and/or sex".

First off the statement has no source, moreover it is unnecessarily vague, and finally it doesn't (to my ear) even ring true about Cohen's music. Leonard Cohen explored a wide variety of themes, some of which are detailed in this section, for instance "depression", "religion", "politics", and it seems to my ear that in many cases these other themes (and more still) play at least as central a role in any particular song as that of love. A song like "Dress Rehearsal Rag", as a small example, may have something to do with love, but it is easy to argue that love is simply not what the song "is about". In fact, a huge number of songs could be interpreted as being about something other than "love and /or sex". Politics, religion, culture; Cohen seems to have many themes at the center of his songs.

I basically think the sentence is a throw-away. Couldn't you say the same thing about any song by any artist? In a certain sense, sure, I suppose everything has something to do with love or sex. All of his music also has something to do with life, with feelings, with relationships, with struggle, and a huge variety of other themes. I think that it is misleading to readers to state that "love and/or sex" are his central themes. Unless Cohen said this himself, I think it would be best to remove this whole section.

71.83.54.82 (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC) Brian Melanson

Most of the Themes section is unsourced or poorly sourced. This kind of unsourced interpretation of art has no place on Wikipedia. I boldly removed much of the section. Sundayclose (talk) 22:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Spoken Word or Poetry in Genres?

I think it's clear L. Cohen is a poet. "Spoken Word" is a somewhat slippery term which Wikipedia's editor have called subjective on its page. I think Poetry should be listed on Cohen's Genres listing. Overful (talk) 12:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Date of First Album

The article says Songs of Leonard Cohen was released in 1968 at one point and then 1967 at another point. Which is correct? - Added by Patrice : The first album was issued in Dec. 1967

The Young Ones

Neil from the young ones says, "No one ever listens to me, I may as well be a Leonard Cohen Record"

Current partner

I have removed "He is now romantically involved (and working) with Anjani Thomas". I saw Cohen live in Auckland a couple of nights ago, and when introducing the singers he singled out Sharon Robinson saying something like she has become his permanent soulmate (not those exact words). I know this is not good enough to justify inclusion of that in Wiki, but the entry I removed re Ajani Thomas seems to be well and truly out of date. And it wasn't referenced anyway, desipite being tagged for moths.

Themes / Religion

Themes - previously the only information under themes, subheading religion, was extremely speculative regarding his "interest" in Scientology. Obviously Abrahamic religions are a much greater theme in his music. I removed this sentence unless a more complete explanation of his themes can be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:85:C102:D4E0:3543:7B57:50A5:F1D0 (talk) 19:07, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but I reverted your edit. It's sourced material that you removed. Why don't you add some content to the section? You're right, it does need to be expanded (but not just deleted). — Gorthian (talk) 22:14, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Uncited trivia can be trimmed

Before the article can be added to the WP Main Page, the missing citations need to be fixed. But looking them over, it seems they are almost all for trivial details. I'm suggesting we trim the trivia to remove most of the "citation needed" tags. They can be added back later if anyone wants to add a source. --Light show (talk) 05:41, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2016

Kokomofred (talk) 08:47, 11 November 2016 (UTC) date of death is 10 november not 7.

No, it's the 7th. Please check the sources. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 09:26, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

The quoted source (Washington Post) says November 10th.

The source says he "died Nov. 7". Vanjagenije (talk) 11:28, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2016

59.19.111.204 (talk) 14:08, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Please state what your request is, we editors here on Wikipedia are not mind readers. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:11, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Who is here and what to do

As a Canadian and a fan I am hoping we can clean this up. Wondering who is all here?.....and what needs to be done.

1. Sources......Lots dead....and we can do better then media sources as seen here.
2. Structure/content....I am not a fan of the headers (titles) or the fact we have huge sections like "Hallelujah" that the main article(s) can detail.
3. Images...we need to go through commons....see what is best to use
4. Quotes ....as per our MOS ....just need to take some time and reword as much as possible that is relevent and remove (or relocate to Wikiquote) the rest.

This is after a quick look...what do others see?--Moxy (talk) 18:57, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2016

Please correct the date of death - it is November 10th, not November 7th. Thank you :)

193.134.187.20 (talk) 11:31, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 Not done - as explained above the cited source says he "died Nov. 7" - you will need multiple other sources stating November 10, to outweigh the Washington Post - Arjayay (talk) 11:39, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Per what the sources are saying about it, he died on November 7. The family just didn't announce it to the media until November 10. Bearcat (talk) 20:17, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Tribute

Can someone add this link thanks. It shows that tributes came from people as far afield musically as Slash and Bette Midler. I cannot edit the article as it is protected. 92.40.59.123 (talk) 19:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Me neither. I'd like to see it placed there too. Maxwell Radio DJ (talk) 19:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Some tribute cites like the one noted are already in the Death section.--Light show (talk) 20:11, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

OK. 92.40.59.123 (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2016

Date of death November 10, 2016</ref>

209.197.145.84 (talk) 21:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Date of death is present and sourced already. -- Dane2007 ^talk 21:55, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

As noted above: his death was announced on November 10, but it happened on November 7; the family just held off on alerting the media for a couple of days. It pays to actually read the whole article and not just the headline, y'know? Bearcat (talk) 22:07, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Jewish?

Is this removal really an improvement?

There are few North American writers, even including the large East coast Jewish coterie, who are so obviously influenced throughout their career by their Jewish origins and cultural background. Of course this belongs in the lead. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the lead should mention the Jewish aspect but I tend to think the word Jewish in the identifying sentence is not the best way to do this. Perhaps it would be better to have a a sentence or two in a paragraph about aspects of his life less directly related to his songwriting. If he has a deep understanding of the Kabbalah but is also a Buddhist priest, the religious aspect probably deserves more space in the lead. --Boson (talk) 17:37, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Buddhism, and his ordination, probably belong there too. But I don't think this has influenced the tone of his work, even his later work, as much. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Boson that putting the word "Jewish" in the first sentence oversimplifies a complex thing. Jonathunder (talk) 04:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I also agree with Boson. By all means put something in the lead about how his Jewish background has influenced his career, but don't just dump the word "Jewish" in the descriptor in the opening sentence, like some weird caveat about his nationality. MOS advises at WP:OPENPARA to leave ethnicity out of the opening unless it is relevant to why the subject meets WP:GNG. Cohen is notable for his success as a singer, not directly because of anything to do with ethnicity, religion, etc. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:01, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity "should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". I don't think Cohen generally is thought of as a "Jewish" singer-songwriter. I suppose this has become a matter of consensus. I oppose describing him as "a Jewish-Canadian" in the very first sentence. Sundayclose (talk) 16:18, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

• The Washington Post obit, now #1 citation, [8] has a telling quote, “I have a deep tribal sense,” Mr. Cohen told the New Yorker magazine last month. “I grew up in a synagogue that my ancestors built. I sat in the third row.” So is it time now for Wikipedia to accept that Leonard Cohen just might have been Jewish after all? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:30, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

In addition to the above quotes The Washington Post obituary linked to above says: "His family was prominent in the city’s Jewish community, founding a synagogue and owning several clothing and manufacturing businesses" and also "He undertook various religious studies and spiritual pursuits throughout his life, but he remained grounded in the Jewish tradition, sometimes using Hebrew phrases and traditional melodies in his music." Bus stop (talk) 03:45, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

date of death

At the moment there is no reliable source for the date of death. Indeed Rolling Stone source [9] specifically says that no date was given. This suggests it was Monday, but we need a proper source for it.--Slp1 (talk) 04:36, 11 November 2016 (UTC).

The Leonard Cohen Forum www.leonardcohenforum.com is definitely a proper source and they would have got that information directly from Cohen's family (Leonard Cohen himself used to deal with the moderators or the LC Forum directly, most recently in September). That he died on Monday 7 November in Los Angeles and was later buried in Montreal can be considered certain.— Unsigned comment

There is now a reliable source - http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/music/leonard-cohen-singer-songwriter-of-love-death-and-philosophical-longing-dies-at-82/2016/11/10/1e6bf036-a779-11e6-8042-f4d111c862d1_story.html confirms it. Other outlets are saying that the news of his demise was withheld for four days so as not to impact on the Presidential election which was in full swing. A measure of the man's stature, if true. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:23, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I have to say this somewhere - why is it that non-account editors (IPs) feel that they have to doggedly edit and re-edit supremely-sourced dates of death, undoing all the good work of the signed-up editors? Their actions have in this instance caused a raising of the protection level for the page, but that shouldn't be necessary, if only common sense and logic were followed by all. Rant over. Ref ^(chew)(do) 08:05, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I suspect (or at least hope) that they're done in good faith. I saw the news this morning, with the story going along the lines of "Canadian singer Leonard Cohen has died..." etc. I made the assumption that they meant last night (no date was actually mentioned), but I was quite surprised to find it was infact three days ago. The page protection will stop a flood of bad edits that can be hard to spot in the body of the article too. Hopefully the page protection will encourage new users to register and help with other articles too. Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 09:29, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but besides a very simple statement about the day of death being November 7th, without any sort of source of this information ... what is so reliable about that article on Washington Post site ? That doesn't sound very reliable on my opinion. Please, if you don't have any sort of confirmation from mr. Cohen's family about November 7th, correct this day of death to November 10th, as any other site on Internet has posted so far ! --Corneld (talk) 18:12, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

For what it's worth the BBC News Online obituary doesn't mention a date of death, and The Guardian's one only states "death announced 10 November". JezGrove (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe they know this in Montreal. According to this, Cohen died on Monday, 7 November 2016, and the funeral was yesterday, Thursday, 10 November 2016 in Montreal. "Leonard Cohen died Monday, funeral held Thursday in Montreal His funeral took place Thursday afternoon in Montreal, at the Shaar Hashomayim Cemetery on the slopes of Mount Royal, congregation Shaar Hashomayim has confirmed." http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/leonard-cohen-died-monday-funeral-held-thursday-in-montreal --My-wiki-photos (talk) 21:17, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: The Washington Post. A very well-respected journal, which would NEVER post a death date unless they had received reliable information to that effect. And it is quite acceptable to use a reliable source which obviously has a reliable source itself! Redundant topic. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:23, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2016 - For goodness sake one day after his death and your have the date of death wrong by 3 days - very sloppy

122.58.51.235 (talk) 02:31, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Plenty of reliable sources state that Cohen died on 7 November, not 10 November - the news of his death was only announced then. Please see Pitchfork, Billboard and his New York Times obituary. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 02:57, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

• Would you people please start reading the talk page before posting the same request over and over again? This has already been answered above several times: he died on November 7, and his family just didn't make the announcement to the public until November 10. This is exactly what every source about his death says, which obviously means you're not actually reading those either. Just, please, stop with the death date edit requests already. Bearcat (talk) 00:26, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Oxygenating the bio

There are two ways to make a bio unreadable, IMO. One is by not writing it. Another is by writing it but smothering it in trivia, such as this:

The Fall leg of the European tour started in early September with an open-air show in Florence, Italy, and continued through Germany, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, and Austria, where Cohen performed at the open-air opera stage of Römersteinbruch bei St. Margarethen im Burgenland, and then continued with dates in France, Poland, Russia (Moscow's State Kremlin Palace), Slovenia and Slovakia. Cohen's last European show was held in Sibamac Arena, in Bratislava, Slovakia. The shows in late September and October were performed without Sharon Robinson, who left this tour leg due to severe illness; the setlist omitted songs co-written by her, but old Cohen standards were added instead.

Most of the similar trivia about albums, their producers, tours, lists of cities and arenas, precise dates, what was sold at the snack bars, the weather report for that day, the exact number of people that showed up, etc., can be removed, tightened, or placed in notes, if noteworthy. This is a biography, not a concertology. Some serious trimming by editors would help this still 105KB article. --Light show (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Agree. Also the above para is available on the tour article Leonard Cohen Tour 2008–2010. JennyOz (talk) 05:15, 13 November 2016 (UTC)