Talk:Lemmings (video game)/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Cabe6403 (talk · contribs) 10:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

---

Overall, this article is fairly good. It needs more sources for a number of statements and facts made. I've listed some of the worst offenders below. Additionally, there are some prose issues. Particularly the Music section which I think needs rewritten. I'm putting this article on hold to allow these changes to be made.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

• Tunes in the game included: - Poor prose, too colloquial.
• Many instances of 'tunes' - not appropriate wording.
• ..October 2006 by Rusty Nutz - Who?
• Several gaming magazines of the time of its first releases gave Lemmings very high scores, and only the level of graphics and sound received some small amount of criticism. - Poorly constructed sentence. Don't use a comma and then an and.
• Inspired games as a heading doesn't read particularly well
• Music was created by Tim Wright and Brian Johnston, Scott Johnston's younger brother, and Scott's mother was the first voice of the lemmings. - Same as above, , and. The sentence reads quite poorly too.

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

• Each of the designers had a somewhat different style in their levels: Dailly's levels often had titles containing clues to what to do (such as "It's Hero Time", suggesting that one lemming had to be separated from the crowd) and generally required the player to perform several actions at once; Gary Timmons's levels were minimalistic, with popular culture references in the titles, and Scott Johnston's levels were generally tightly packed. Dailly was also responsible for the "custom" levels based on other Psygnosis and Reflections Interactive Amiga games, such as Shadow of the Beast, Menace, Awesome and Shadow of the Beast II. These "crossover" levels also used music from those games, though in ports these levels have been removed or altered to remove such references - Entire section unsourced.
• Timmons is credited with the official drawings of the lemmings, as necessitated by the need of Psygnosis for box cover artwork - Unsourced
• The two-player option was inspired by then-present games Populous and Stunt Car Racer. - Unsourced
• Music was created by Tim Wright and Brian Johnston, Scott Johnston's younger brother, and Scott's mother was the first voice of the lemmings. When Lemmings was originally developed, all of the music was written by Brian Johnston. Johnston liberally sampled bits of copyrighted music. This had been common practice, but at that point there was a growing awareness of music copyright. - Unsourced
• Music section makes numerous claims for songs (e.g. exclusive for Master System) that are unsouced
• One of the original tunes is a re-arrangement of music that was used in an Amiga animation called "Puggs in Space". Psygnosis later used the character from the demo in their game Puggsy. - Unsourced
• This may include how skills are assigned, the number of difficulty levels, the number of lemmings supported on-screen, the individual levels within each port, and exclusion of certain words and levels due to their connotation or legal standing. - Unsourced
• Majority of information about the PSP port is unsourced
• The original sales for Lemmings on the Amiga topped 55,000 copies on the first day of sales; in comparison, Menace sold 20,000 copies and Blood Money sold 40,000 copies cumulatively - Unsourced
• introduces several new types of skills that can be assigned to the lemmings in addition to new levels. Similarly All New World of Lemmings (1994, known as The Lemmings Chronicles in North America) alters some of the core mechanics of gameplay by reducing the number of key skills and adding other mechanics more typical of a two-dimensional platformer. - Unsourced
• One of the first games inspired by Lemmings was The Humans, released for the Amiga in 1992. - Unsourced
• Lemmings' introduction of RTS elements has been noted by fantasy author Terry Pratchett; in his novel Interesting Times, an army of golems is controlled in a fashion reminiscent of the Lemmings user interface - Unsourced
• At least one dead link [[1]] for this statement source: The soundtrack also marks the final video game score created by longtime composer Tim Follin after he announced his retirement from the industry in mid-2005.

1. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

2. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

3. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

4. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

5. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Rusty Nutz is not a person. --Niemti (talk) 17:14, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The article doesn't mention who/what they/it is. The way it is written is as if the reader is expected to know Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 19:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

It's just Rusty Nutz, they don't have a Wikipedia article. And they're a video game developer, as in "ported by". Several of the "unsourced" paragraphs are in fact sourced (usually by [2]). --Niemti (talk) 21:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

My point was it wasn't explained who they were. It is as simple as saying 'video game developer Rusty Nutz' or something to that effect Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 21:58, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Um, every other developer and publisher through the article was not explained neither, because it's just pretty obvious? --Niemti (talk) 22:42, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The original wording was ambiguous, you've since reworded it. Also, never assume something is obvious. A good article should be accessible by those who know nothing about the subject and genre. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 08:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Anything else? --Niemti (talk) 23:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't have time to do a second review right this second but there's two things I noticed on a quick skim of the article.:

• Music was created by Tim Wright and Brian Johnston (Scott Johnston's younger brother; Scott's mother was also the first voice of the lemmings). Still reads poorly. I'd remove the bit about their mother, it's not really relevant to the music section. Also I'd phrase the words in the parenthesis as (the younger brother of Scott Johnston).

• There's still a "Tunes" in there.

- Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 11:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

"tune" is not colloquial--Tomcat (7) 13:36, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

A 'tune' refers to a melody or a refrain. Using it to refer to an entire song is a colloquialism. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 13:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I've asked for a second opinion on the review of this article. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 13:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Even the Wikipedia article says "Forest Green" a "tune". Oh, and there are no "songs" in the game at all ("entire" or not), if you're never seen (heard) the game you should've just check it on YouTube or something. Also, finish it already. --Niemti (talk) 15:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFF applies to that example. Just because something exists doesn't make it right. The dictionary definition of 'Tune' is Noun: a melody, especially one which characterizes a certain piece of music: she left the theatre humming a cheerful tune. [3]

Also, I've asked for a 2nd opinion as I don't have the time at the moment due to some recent events in my life. If you observe my contributions you'll see I haven't been active much recently. I don't want to fail this simply because I don't have the time to finish the review to a high enough standard. If you prefer I can end it now by failing it and allowing you to resubmit it but that serves no constructive purpose. Additionally, demanding someone do something as you just did will (generally) have the opposite effect on Wikipedia. - Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 15:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Random aside: I noticed it took you 5 revisions to format and write your comment you posted. Have you considered using the Preview function? I only suggest as it makes the page history tidier and easier to understand. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 16:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

It's all melodies. There's not a single song in the game. --Niemti (talk) 17:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree on this. I believe you're misunderstanding the meaning of a melody. Just listening to the link you've posted is enough to confirm they are not "all melodies". Numerous tracks have a melody, percussion and an accompaniment. Refer to them as tracks if you wish but they are not simply melodies. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 08:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I think you're not quite aware there is only 1 (one) instance of the word "tune" in the entire article, refering to indeed a tune ("folk tune" is how the other Wikipedia article calls it). And you ware talking about "an entire song". Songs have a vocal. And it's all synth remixes, based on the melodies. No, with no vocals (and there were often/usually no vocals in the originals works, too). Right now, I want to just delete it all, because the whole "problem" with it is just so silly. If you want to delete it do it, I don't even care. --Niemti (talk) 23:14, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

But for that matter: The music and particularly the sound effects have to get a mention, so crucial to were they to the game. Both were created by Brian Johnson (Scott's younger brother), and the reason the tunes were, well - basic, was to avoid any copyright problems. --Niemti (talk) 23:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Second opinion?

I see this article has been on review for over a month and is listed as needing a second opinion. What exactly is a second opinion needed on? Zad68 17:29, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

The article wasn't quite up to GA standards so I put it on hold to allow editors to work on it. I don't have time to go over everything again currently and didn't want to pass it (or fail it) based on an incomplete review. Thus, I put it up for second opinion to allow another GA reviewer to go over the article and determine the final verdict. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 08:10, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation... I've not done enough content development in this subject area to do a full review. Zad68 13:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok, what exactly is the problem? Because even I'm confused. --Niemti (talk) 21:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)