Talk:Leigh Griffiths

Reversion of edits alleging patterns of violent and racist behaviour

@User:Truth, reality and justice: You really need to read core wikipedia policies, namely WP:NPOV, WP:BLP and WP:NOR. For the purposes of wikipedia, please remember that a football player's notability is completely derived from them playing football. Where a player's off the field behaviour affects their career, then that is fair game. For example, Celtic recently disciplined Griffiths and the SFA is investigating one the recent incidents: this has been added to the main prose of the article. What is completely against wikipedia policy is to construct whole sections defaming the subject. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:59, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I have long been familiar with these polices, however leigh Griffiths is now extremely notable for behaviour outside his football career with the involvement of the police on multiple occasions. This information documented by reliable sources. To put it another way Leigh Griffiths is no longer only notable as a football player. This must also be reflected in the wikki article regarding the subject. Truth, reality and justice (talk) 20:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a source for saying that "Leigh Griffiths is now extremely notable for behaviour outside his football career with the involvement of the police on multiple occasions"? Please bear in mind WP:BLP, WP:SYNTH, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Consider this point for a moment: many other Hibs supporters were chanting the songs that Griffiths has allegedly sung. None of the other Hibs supporters have been widely reported in the media as being subject to police or other investigations regarding their behaviour. This is because Griffiths is a fairly well known professional football player and they are not public figures at all. In other words, if Griffiths was not a professional football player, he would not have a wikipedia article and would not be subject to these investigations or media coverage. If these incidents affect his career, then it is worthwhile to mention in that context, and it is. What you have done is to libel Griffiths for your own personal reasons. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Its safe to say he is equally notable for his behaviour outside of football, the evidence is pretty easily presentable in multiple reliable sources. Whether and how that should be included is a different matter, has it effected his career yes it probably has, should we censor no, should we give undue weight no. As to JMorrsions last comment suggesting an editor has LIBEL Griffiths, thats not on and should be withdrawn, the only person to libel Griffiths unfortunately is again easily sourced and thats himself. Also you clearly broke WP:3RR in fact you reverted six times in a space of less than two hours, nor can you issue a defence that all those edits were reverting vandalism as thats not the case. Blethering Scot 21:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Why is it "safe to say"? If people were notable for racist behaviour, then we would have thousands of articles about ordinary people who have been convicted of racist offences, which I may remind you that Griffiths has not. WP:3RR does not apply in cases of edits to BLPs where there is "removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that violates the policy on biographies of living persons (BLP)." Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:32, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Jmorrison230582 but in this case your behaviour falls way below the mark, these were sourced, not really biased apart from lead and you certainly should of discussed. Six times in 2 hours is not on from any editor, if you truly believed that these were strong BLP breaches then you warn for vandalism and you report to the board, you don't do what you did.Blethering Scot 21:37, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

On top of that i didn't say he was notable for racist behaviour, i said he was notable for his behaviour outside of football, that is clearly demonstrable. Blethering Scot 21:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• The only reason you know anything about his "behaviour outside football" is because he is a footballer. Those sources of notability are not equal. Or perhaps you would like it posted prominently on Ryan Stevenson's article that he was convicted of drink driving and described as "arrogant" by a sherriff? [1] Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:44, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

If he was convicted then i would argue yes it should be included on Stevenson's page, attempting to bring Hearts into this is cheap and not covering issues. Unless he is convicted then i fully agree this material does not need included, so don't be pedantic with me. Your behaviour in this has been less than exemplary, you should know better than the other new editor in this.Blethering Scot 21:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Due to full protection this has been taken to ANI.Blethering Scot 22:17, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Resolution

I think the article is fine as it is until there are further developments with the investigations by Celtic, the police and the SFA. Then it will be a quite straightforward case of adding to the Celtic section of the article to denote what (if any) punishment is reported. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:59, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed inclusion of material

First off, the non-starters:

• The wording on the lede is inappropriate and stays off either way.
• This and this are non-starters, everything is an 'allegation' and rumors with no apparent consequences from a biographical perspective.

Second, the proposed wording and sourcing:

Misconduct incidents

In 2013 Griffiths was arrested for allegedly racist tweets that targeted an Asian man. The subsequent controversy prompted the PFA to issue warnings to other players regarding the use of social media. The Show Racism the Red Card organization urged the SFA and Scottish law enforcement to "dish out appropriate punishments".

Later that same year Griffiths was accused of stealing a drink from Tesco and getting into a scuffle with a security guard. He was subsequently cleared of charges but fined £100. Griffiths was also charged with assaulting a man in an Edinburgh street, but the charges were subsequently dropped and the case vacated.

(pending: the latest racism controversy: [2][3][4])

References

Let's discuss: Title of the section, sourcing, weight, neutral tone, etc. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 00:01, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Would be happy with that, although I'm sure there are other better sources we could use in addition or instead of some of those. Given this is all stuff he's done in his personal life would that simply not be the best header, avoids giving undue weight. You could also add more stuff about him in text there, where he was born, his family and anything else good about him too.Blethering Scot 00:08, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Opposed. The alleged "racist tweet" (the first paragraph) is already mentioned in the article (third paragraph of the Hibernian (loan) section). The "incidents" in the second paragraph are trivial and have had no effect on his career. I believe that creating a separate section like this is a content fork (per the WP:CSECTION essay). It should also be noted that all of the sources used above are tabloid newspapers. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:23, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Alternative: I would support adding some of the response to the tweet, i.e. the PFA warning players about twitter (or social media generally) and the demands by the campaign group, if these can be reliably sourced. Here is the statement by PFA Scotland. It doesn't actually mention Griffiths because it was (is?) in a legal process. Here is a more reliable source. Regarding the position of Show Racism the Red Card, they made a statement which apparently accepted his apology for the tweet. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:49, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Reminder We can't use material like this that is only sourced to tabloids. It's even rather dodgy to have it here on the talk page. We can leave it up for a day or two if you like but this discussion is a non-starter, I'm afraid. --John (talk) 08:34, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

John this is a starter. Plenty of sources available from non tabloids as well. On top of that tabloids can be used for the non controversial elements of this. Blethering Scot 10:17, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

JM where in the article does it cover his personal life including his family, where he grew up because that's not a content fork its valid. Blethering Scot 10:18, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• @User:Blethering Scot: I don't think you will find reliable sources (i.e. not tabloid newspapers) discussing his background or family life. Maybe the odd interview in the Scotsman / Scotland on Sunday, but those would likely be partial / incomplete accounts. I generally only post "personal life" sections on football BLPs if the player concerned is related to a prominent person (usually another footballer). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:24, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

JM hypothetically if five tabloids and a broadsheet or BBC or STV say he has three kids say then its safe to say thats not a controversial comment. If sources say he was born in Edinburgh its not a controversial comment. Tabloids can be used for certain non controversial things, obviously if its controversial then you would look to other sources. If the Scotsman covers it doesn't need to be comprehensive, were not looking to go into huge details re his private life just the very basics. Ive got two decent sources saying he grew up in Edinburgh as a Hibs fan, that should be included in a personal life section.Blethering Scot 10:32, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Tweets to asian man also covered by The Guardian & the dreaded Daily Mail, STV News covers his apology and PFA warning re social media. The PFA could easily be covered by the Record anyway its not a controversial point. The BBC, The Scotsman, Daily Mail cover shoplifting charge. The Scotsman, BBC & STV cover fine and state that it was for breach of the peace. The BBC, STV, The Herald, The Scotsman & The Herald again cover the desertion of case and Sky cover the initial charge. This is just a very quick search there will be more but there is enough there to double up decent sources such as BBC & Scotsman.Blethering Scot 10:42, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• The alleged "racist tweet" is already in the article and I said above that I support adding some reliably sourced detail to this. Regarding the shoplifting charge and breach of the peace fine, I don't believe those are at all relevant to his notability as a football player. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I believe that the vast majority of football players (including Griffiths) come under WP:NPF. If he was (say) a politician (WP:PUBLICFIGURE) demanding the confidence of the public in his personal morality, then obviously being accused and/or convicted of a crime would be highly relevant. For a football player, not so much. If an off-the-field incident has a demonstrable effect on his career, then it belongs in a biography. Otherwise it is just repetition of voyueristic journalism. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Voyueristic journalism he was found guilty of breach of the peace. He wasn't just charged he was issued a fine by the court as a result. The fact his own manager has commented on these issues its relevant to his career.Blethering Scot 10:55, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Wow, he was issued a £100 fine! What next, are we going to post on BLPs every time someone gets a parking ticket? WP:IINFO. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

JM this wasn't a parking ticket he was taken to court for shop lifting and alleged assault. He was subsequently given fine by a Judge for breeching the peace. Thats being found guilty of a charge in a court of law. Also JM i as I'm sure everyone else here is aware that Wikipedia is not a indiscriminate collection of information, because if we weren't we could include a lot more re Griffiths. However no one is pushing for that. Either way we need to add more about the good stuff in his personal life. Where he grew up, who he supported which is readily available as Edinburgh & Hibs, he has children and that can be sourced reliably. The article doesn't include enough neutral positive material about him and that should be rectified.Blethering Scot 11:17, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

In BLPs, the presumption is in favour of leaving that kind of information out, because it normally can't be well sourced. The only exceptions to that would be public figures. Griffiths is well known in Edinburgh, pretty well known in Scotland, but hardly anyone else on the planet will have ever heard of him. As someone pointed out elsewhere last night, you have only ever edited this article twice, and not since last year. Why the sudden interest in adding all of this irrelevant information? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:26, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

JM its not irrelevant information its very relevant he was found guilty and its very easily reliably sourced in this case and not just to tabloids as you tried to state. And as to no one out of Scotland having heard of him, he played for Wolves so that argument is a non starter.Blethering Scot 11:34, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Griffiths is a notable football player. Please explain how his being found guilty on a charge of breach of the peace, the most minor offence in the Scottish criminal code, is in any way relevant to his football career. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

JM he was found guilty, his own manager has had to discuss his behaviour outside of football, not only here but his Wolves manager had to as well, its entirely relevant. He's a notable figure and unfortunately its not just for football. JM were not talking a parking ticket as you tried to liken this to.Blethering Scot 11:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

In other words, you can't. You only offer as evidence comments by managers which may have been referring to other incidents, or his behaviour in general. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:56, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

JM in other words I've offered more than enough justification, the sources speak for themselves. His behaviour in general is entirely the relevant point, he was found guilty, he's subsequently been arrested again, his managers are talking exactly about this behaviour.Blethering Scot 11:59, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• "Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence for any edit rests with the person who adds or restores material." No such burden has been proven, either in the libellous edits that were made by User:Truth, reality and justice or those suggested here by User:Blethering Scot. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:07, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Number of points the burden of proof has been done, the suggestions weren't made by me, the information has been shown not to be sourced to tabloids but to multiple reliable sources. You cannot argue that he isn't as well known for being a footballer as he is for his behaviour, because you can add more GNG sources for that than you can for his actual footballing career. Throughout that footballing career managers have had to comment on that behaviour, its effected his career. He has been convicted that evident, there is no BLP issue or liable that can be achieved its widely in the public domain, its not a titillating claims about people's lives. Its a factual claim. Its also written conservatively in the suggestion given above by FreeRangeFrog. Blethering Scot 12:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

You've just outed an editor. Great so this is going to have to be taken much further.Blethering Scot 12:23, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

On top of that can you show me where I've introduced bias about Leigh Griffiths or Hibernian the club you support as a wikipedia editor. I certainly have not, in fact I've just spent time updating the Hibernian season article you abandoned. On top of that the evidence presented here is neutral and it wasn't me that suggested making the edit in the first place. In fact I've only advised how to source properly.Blethering Scot 12:27, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I have added to the section regarding the alleged racist tweet, using some of the RS posted above. I believe this incident (and the more recent ongoing issues) merit inclusion because they had clear effects on his career (criticism by his club and manager, and Wolves deciding to send him back to Hibs in the first case). I don't agree with constructing a personal life section or adding in minor incidents that had no wider effect. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:26, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2021

Leigh Griffiths is infact a lethal striker and predator in Scotland but doesn’t come close to wee jp fur the shire who is simply ruthless infront of goal 82.27.143.57 (talk) 13:14, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)