Talk:Legitimacy (criminal law)

Review of article name

@Bearian:

Hi, Seasons greetings.

I do request your openion if it is ok to change title of the article to Legitimacy (law). For example link in article Head of state "[[Legitimacy (law)|legitimating]] element in establishing a [[de facto]] dynasty." should have come here but as of now actually & mistakenly goes to article Legitimacy (family law).

If you remember I had taken your openions previously at article Legal awareness talk page. Subesequesntly intermittently I worked on few more related legal concept articles like legal consciousness, legal mobilization, Empowerment#legal empowerment, and currently back to work on Civics & legal socialization.

Simultaneouly I will need to work on Legitimacy (law) article. Unfortunately Legitimacy (law) article name was mistakenly used for Legitimacy (family law) and since huge number of internal page links still to be corrected I was not able to use article name Legitimacy (law) for this article. Mean while I used article name Legal Legitimacy for this page but some one moved it to Legitimacy (criminal law) probably because present stub content is more of related to criminal law. But factually I do not intend to limit this article to criminal law only but put it more general to Legitimacy (law) so ite will be easy for me to link other legal concept articles like legal socialisation here.

I do request your openion if it is ok to change title of the article to Legitimacy (law).

List of some of the artilces affected and need link to this article:

• Head of state
• Law of the Dominican Republic
• Proclamation of Rebellion
• Independence
• Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism
• Yangju highway incident

Thanks and warm regards

Mahitgar (talk) 06:22, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

No. DGG or Pharos, can one of you please move-protect this page? Bearian (talk) 02:40, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 2 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. The opposition has consensus that this could be improved but does not support a page move. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane ^talk 16:31, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

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Legitimacy (criminal law) → Legitimacy (law) – (lengthy rationale given below) Mahitgar (talk) 01:52, 2 July 2017 (UTC) What is proposed :

1) Move this article to heading Legitimacy (law)

2) to correct redierections in various articles from Legitimacy (law) to Legitimacy (family law).(list). for example [[Legitimacy (law)|bastard son]] link in one of the articles needs to be changed to [[Legitimacy (family law)|bastard son]] or for example [[Legitimacy (law)#History|illegitimate]] needs to be changed to [[Legitimacy (family law)#History|illegitimate]]

• Reasons and points to ponder

A) Previously written title article for Legitimacy (law) over a period of time actually and mistakenly got developed only for 'Legitimacy (family law)'. In legal studies, "Legitimacy (law)" is supposed to be refered to Legitimacy of law which is entirely vast and different subject. The present article 'Legitimacy (family law)' has limited scope to family law matters and still it is unncessarilly blocking and using misleading title of a different & wider subject.

B) What is the problem if it misleads ? As of now links from articles such as Head of state, Independence are getting mistakenly getting redirected to 'Legitimacy (family law)', Besides I need to link various legal concept & theory articles like Legal socialization to apropriate article Legitimacy of law and not misdirect to 'Legitimacy (family law)'

C) Previous title Legitimacy (law) to 'Legitimacy (family law)' was moved in Jan 2015 after a note on talk page there. In last two and half year no objection has been raised on that talk page uptill now. But links from Legitimacy (law) to 'Legitimacy (family law)' are still remaining in quite a good number of pages. Here with I seek consenus to provide apropriate & direct linking to 'Legitimacy (family law)' and not through Legitimacy (law). Why I am requesting consensus is for wider info and relative stability to the proposed change.

D) After correcting the links in above manner the next step proposed is to move this article from Legitimacy (criminal law) to Legitimacy (law). The present article uptil now was and is intended for Legitimacy (law) if one studies used and proposed references in the article. Probably it was misunderstanding at the end of mover who moved the article to Legitimacy (criminal law) since at that point of time when article was stub, references to crime law were relatively more, but that is not the condition now. Besides I do not see any immidiate separate future for title, Legitimacy (criminal law) atleast I am not likely to work on the limited scope and I do not foresee much likely hood of any body else working on with given limited feasiblity.

• To sum up I seek community approval/consensus to

1) Move this article to heading Legitimacy (law)

2) to correct redierections in various articles from Legitimacy (law) to Legitimacy (family law).(list). for example [[Legitimacy (law)|bastard son]] link in one of the articles needs to be changed to [[Legitimacy (family law)|bastard son]] or for example [[Legitimacy (law)#History|illegitimate]] needs to be changed to [[Legitimacy (family law)#History|illegitimate]]

Mahitgar (talk) 17:11, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

• Surely this is a WP:RM matter - I don't see a need for an RfC. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:39, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
• What about legal legitimacy? —  AjaxSmack  02:58, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

  Nope. No one uses those two terms together when talking about legitimacy in a legal context. SpikeballUnion (talk) 15:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  Comment: Whether "legitimacy of law" term will do ? Google search is giving 67,800 searches If I put the term "legal legitimacy", out of that 12,000 searches in google books. "legitimacy of law" term gives 1,090,000 google searches out of that 142,000 are google book searches.

  I took this article for writing only after primary research. If you see references and external links in the article quite a few legal theory authors seems to have written on this subject. One more question, If not any other title the Whether we can use "legitimacy" title itself for general article and have a separate "legitimacy DAB" page.

  Mahitgar (talk) 02:20, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose – Redirects pointing to the wrong page are not a justification for a page move. If a redirect points to the wrong article, fix it. In addition, your proposed page title is more ambiguous than the current one. If anything, I'd suggest changing Legitimacy (law) to redirect to the main Legitimacy disambiguation page instead, unless there's a clear primary topic (see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). V2Blast (talk) 07:00, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  Comment: Thanks for particiapting with your view. Do you suggest any alternate name for present article the way AjaxSmack has suggested title "legal legitimacy". Rgds Mahitgar (talk) 07:18, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  I agree that Legitimacy (law) should be redirected to the Legitimacy disambiguation page as it could refer to either Legitimacy (criminal law) or Legitimacy (family law). Additionally, despite not thinking so initially, I believe that Legitimacy (criminal law) should keep the same title because "legitimacy", in this context, is mentioned frequently together with "criminal" in Google search results. SpikeballUnion (talk) 15:34, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree that it would be a mistake to move any title to an ambiguous title, which should be redirected to the disambiguation page for reasons given by V2Blast above. However, if this title is to be kept, then the proposer's misgivings should be addressed. If this title is supposed to be about the "criminal law" aspect of legitimacy, then that should be its focus. As for the malplaced links, if the Legitimacy (law) redirect is retargeted to the dab page, then the links will be easy to find, and any new links will be covered by DPL bot.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  17:52, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  Comment cont. It might be that the nom is looking to make a broad concept article under the Legitimacy (law) title. If this is what is needed, an article on the general topic of "legitimacy" as used in legal contexts, then may I suggest the nom begin either a Draft:Legitimacy (law) page or a page in their user space to hone and sharpen such a topic. When it is reviewed and ready, the draft can then be moved to mainspace.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  15:59, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose the proposed move; I would also support redirecting Legitimacy (law) to the disambiguation page, Legitimacy, to clear up any incorrect incoming links. bd2412 T 19:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Surely the family law meaning is more notable than this one. This article was getting an average of two hits a day until a recent spike.[1] The family law article gets 280 hits a day.[2] Whiff of greatness (talk) 23:28, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  Comment on a lighter note : If one really compares legitimacy of family law matters affects least number of people in global population than legitimacy of criminal law, and legitimacy of criminal law affects far lesser no of people (at least in well stabilised countries) than broader concept of legitimacy of laws in itself. But flow of hits and interest is opposite.

  The main thing is my where in which article do I write about broader concepts of legitimacy of law or legal legitimacy has remained unanswered. After this page move discussion ends that question is going to remain lingering before me.

  Is any one giving thought to this "A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term." (see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC)

  Thanks for participating in the discussion.

  Mahitgar (talk) 01:50, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose move, support fixing Legitimacy (law) to redir to the DAB page, per the above. Also support conforming scope fixes at various articles as needed (which should be done by merging material when possible, not simply excising it).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  18:04, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: I have cleared the decks on Legitimacy (law), changing all incoming links to direct links to Legitimacy (family law), except for about a half dozen intended for the political sense. Cheers! bd2412 T 04:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@Dane: Thanks for discussion close. Please do clarify your take on the second point in the discussion i.e. redirection of Legitimacy (law) to disambiguation page and correction of linked pages, Quite a few users seems to have openionated on that point.

Mahitgar (talk) 04:13, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry I did not see user:BD2412 has seems to have taken care of that point,

Mahitgar (talk) 04:15, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I fixed all the incoming links; I have not retargeted Legitimacy (law) to the disambiguation page, but I think there is sufficient consensus for any editor to go ahead and do that. bd2412 T 04:19, 16 July 2017 (UTC)