Talk:Kriya Yoga school

IMHO The focus of this entry seems overly narrow

I've been studying a kriya-based yoga tradition in India that is partially based on Babaji practices but draws from other Kundalini / Himalayan kriya techniques that come from the western Himalayas, and which have also been influenced by classical Tantra. So, although there is some great content here, it seems overly focused on what we could call the Babaji / Yogananda lineage. It would be more accurate and comprehensive if it included at least some mention of other kriya-based practices such as Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan (which I do not practice or teach) and similar styles like Sattva Yoga, which I do teach. Given the popularity of Kundalini Yoga, this seems like the biggest omission. Just my $0.20. Thank you.

Could you recommend some references we could use? --Hipal (talk) 21:31, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Template:Confusing (reverted) - Kriya Yoga teachings of the Self-Realization Fellowship

In particular, the Kriya Yoga teachings of the Self-Realization Fellowship (a worldwide spiritual organization) are described. However, the article misleadingly suggests that Yoga (philosophy) and Yoga Sutras of Patanjali would be described from the neutral point of view, which is not the case. Patanjali Project (talk) 20:40, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Could you be more specific about what is troubling you. I am not understanding what you are saying.Red Rose 13 (talk) 20:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Nor do I. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 22:06, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Joshua for your improvements. There is only one thing that needs correcting. Yogananda's guru was Sri Yukteswar not Lahiri Mahasaya. I was going to remove it but I thought I should let you do that.Red Rose 13 (talk) 23:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

@Patanjali Project: you added the "Confusing"-template again diff, despite my improvements of the article. It's pretty clear that the article describes Yogananda's take on the Bhagavad Gita, while the section on the Yoga Sutras first introduces Yogananda's views, and then gives the standard view on Kriya Yoga in the YS. So, could you please very specific about what you deem to be "confusing" here? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:11, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali make a) the general description of the essence of Yoga Darshana and b) the specific description of Kriya Yoga Sutras. The concept of Patanjali's Kriya Yoga Sutras is interpreted and taught differently by most gurus, yogis and schools. In the article discussed here, the term Kriya Yoga is used in a confusing and misleading manner, because it is not noted when the term Kriya Yoga a) refers to the Kriya Yoga Sutras or b) to which specific Yoga style and/or which specific Yoga school is referred. Finally, the term Kriya Yoga is a central and general concept of Yoga Darshana, so that the term Kriya Yoga should not be redirected to the special school of "Kriya Yoga as taught by..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patanjali Project (talk • contribs) 08:08, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Please give specific examples where the term Kriya Yoga is used in a confusing and misleading manner. Surely not here:

• "According to David Gordon White, "while [Yogananda] called his particular Kriya Yoga, the term used for "practical yoga" in Yoga Sutras 2.1-27, Patanjali's work is conspicuously absent from his writings.""
• "The origins of the present day forms of Kriya Yoga"
• "Kriya Yoga, as taught by Lahiri Mahasaya"
• "As Yogananda describes Kriya Yoga"
• "According to Yogananda, the elusive Mahavatar Babaji introduced the concept of Kriya Yoga pranayama"
• "According to Yogananda, Kriya Yoga was well known in ancient India, but was eventually lost, due to "priestly secrecy and man’s indifference"."
• "The Bhagavad Gita does not teach Kriya Yoga pranayama by name, though Yogananda claimed that the practice was described there."
• "Yogananda also stated that Krishna was referring to Kriya Yoga pranayama when "Krishna ..."
• "According to Yogananda, "Kriya Yoga is mentioned twice by the ancient sage Patanjali, foremost exponent of yoga, who wrote: "Kriya Yoga consists of body discipline, mental control, and meditating on Aum."—Yoga Sutras II:1."[8]

The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali 2.1 actually uses the term kriya yoga when describing a "yoga of action (kriyayoga)," defining three types of kriya (action):

The yoga of action (kriyayoga) is: asceticism (tapas), recitation (svadhyaya), and devotion (pranidhana) to Ishvara (the lord)."

(Comment by JJ: clearly Yogananda gives a highly deviating translation of YS 2.1)

• "Yogananda stated that Patanjali wrote a second time about the Kriya Yoga pranayama technique when he wrote: "Liberation can be attained by that pranayama which is accomplished by disjoining the course of inspiration and expiration""

Regarding to which specific Yoga style and/or which specific Yoga school is referred, it's quite obvious that this article is about the Kriya Yoga school: "This article is about the Kriya Yoga taught by Lahiri Mahasaya." How much clearer do you want it to be spelled out?

Regarding the redirect at Kriya Yoga, I've changed it to the disambiguation page - where you should discuss that particular issue, not here.

As it is clear that your objection do not hold, except for your own misunderstanding, I'll remove the template again, and warn you that WP:NOTGETTINGIT is WP:DISRUPTIVE, for which proper sanctions can be applied. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:41, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Kripalvananda

@Joshua Jonathan:Good Job Joshua! Just one more thing, I don't think Kripalvananda initiated his disciples into Kriya Yoga. I read the articles and all that was mentioned is Desai describes Kripalu Yoga and its intuitive flow of postures as a bridge between the "yoga of will (astanga)" and the "yoga of surrender (Kundalini)" There is no mention in the yoga journal of Kriya at all. In the encyclopedia it mentions Kriya Yoga in the first sentence but no where else. I have seen many errors in this encyclopedias. In order to put him on this page, we will need to find a secondary source stating that he initiates people into Kriya. What are your thoughts? I went to his website and there is no mention of Kriya Yoga there either.[1]. Red Rose 13 (talk) 23:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the info on Kripalvananda; it's irrelevant indeed. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:26, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Purpose of Etymology section

Dear @Joshua Jonathan, we seem to be in disagreement about the purpose of the Etymology section. While I don't know of a specific style guideline that says what should go in a section about the etymology of a term, I would assume that it should contain information about the meaning and origin of the words being discussed. Currently, the section veers into other topics: the history of the technique, what the technique involves, and the degree to which Yogananda's writings draw upon the writings of Patanjali. These interesting topics seem to already have other sections which are perfect for each of them, respectively: History, Practice, Sources and inspirations. So, to keep the article organized and avoid redundancy/confusion, why not keep the Etymology section about etymology? I may have other questions, but first I would like to hear your thoughts about what should go in this section. Regards, Perception312 (talk) 17:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

@Perception312: thank for your kind inquiry; I'll give a substantial response tomorrow; bed is waiting.... Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I think David White's comment is especially misplaced in this section, where it is insulated from the related information found under the section "Yoga Sutras of Patanjali". White's assertion currently appears undisputed until one scrolls down to the relevant section and finds examples of Yogananda referencing Patanjali and other views regarding the matter, giving the comment undue weight. Perception312 (talk) 14:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

White is a scholar, and a relevant one. I've reverted your edits again; you're ignoring the specific meaning of kriya yoga in the context of Yogananda and his peers. By giving only the general meaning of the words, you're not explaining what kriya yoga means here. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:48, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I am still concerned about due weight and unsourced analysis. Please explain how putting White's comment up here without balancing it with other information about Yogananda's references to Patanjali is not a violation of WP:STRUCTURE. How is the analysis of the primary source at yogananda.com not WP:OR? The article is tagged for this sort of problem.

For the moment I will correct the wording and formatting of White's quote. Another editor tried to fix it, saying it didn't make sense. White's quote can be found on Google Books: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Yoga_Sutra_of_Patanjali/IcmXDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=particular%20synthesis. Perception312 (talk) 18:56, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Perception312: your edits changed diff

According to Jones and Ryan, Kriya Yoga may be translated to mean "yoga of ritual action," involving breating techniques to direct the life-energy (prana) upwards to the crown-chakra. According to Yogananda, in Kriya Yoga pranayama, kriya refers to revolving the life energy "upward and downward, around the six spinal centers."

into

According to Jones and Ryan, the term kriya yoga may be translated to mean "yoga of ritual action", and it is compared to jnana (learning) yoga and karma (action) yoga in the Trishikhi-Brahmana Upanishad.

References

What does "yoga of ritual action" mean sec? Performing rituals in front of an altar? Nobody knows from this statement alone; it has to be explained, and that's what Jones and Ryan, and Yogananda, do, but what you removed. Without the explanation, the statement becomes useless in this context.
Your paraphrasing of Jones and Ryan is misleading; they actually state

... is contrasted with jnana (learning) yoga and equated with karma (action) yoga in the Trishikhi-Brahmana Upanishad

"Compared" is non-informative; if we use this piece of info, we have to use it correct.

Regarding White, you changed

David Gordon White notes that "while [Yogananda] called his particular yoga "Kriya Yoga," the term used for "practical yoga" in Yoga Sutras 2.1-27, Patanjali's work is conspicuously absent from his writings."

into

According to David Gordon White, Kriya Yoga is "the term used for 'practical yoga' in Yoga Sutras 2.1-27".

References

Yes, that's factual correct, but the opposite of what White's intending to say here, and therefor misleading; White explains the origin of the word, but also explains that this origin of the word has little to do with the actual practice. And that's the crux with your edits: you focus on single words but ignore the context, thereby not explaining what the words mean. And you may disagree with White, but you may not censor him on that basis. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

What does David Whites opinion (Patanjali's work is conspicuously absent from his writings.) have to do with the Etymology of the words yoga and kriya yoga?Red Rose 13 (talk) 12:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

It tells us that, though the term "Kriya Yoga" appears in the Yoga Sutras, Yogananda's tradition, or the name, has little to do with the Yoga Sutras. Actually, the only 'explanation' is Yogananda's: "Kriya is an ancient science [...] Babaji renamed it, simply, Kriya Yoga." Why he did so, I don't know. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:44, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

In my recent edit [2] regarding White, I did not censor him. I moved his opinion to the section about Yoga Sutras 2.1, under Sources and inspirations, where I think his view on Yogananda's use of Patanjali's work is relevant and can be taken in context with other information on the matter. Still, you make interesting points about White's intent. Perhaps his intent will be more clear to readers if we include all of his statement: "While [Yogananda] called his particular synthesis Kriya Yoga, the term used for 'practical yoga' in Yoga Sutra 2.1–27, Patanjali’s work is conspicuously absent from his writings. Rather, the Autobiography empha­sizes the scientific foundations of yoga practice, the links between Indian and Christian spirituality, and the miraculous supernatural powers of India’s yogis." Perception312 (talk) 15:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Tanya Lynne Brittain, Kali Ma & Kundalini: Serpent Goddess Rising, S/HE: An International Journal of Goddess Studies Volume 1 Number 1 2022, seems to give a more substantial explanation:

Devotion to and worship of the Divine Mother – Kali – exists in seeing Kundalini as the Divine Mother lying dormant at the base of the spine. When she is woken up She reveals her great power in the body. The worshiper's body becomes likened to a temple with their breath guiding the Goddess up through the cakras; the breath slows into hieratic rhythms where it becomes kriya – the inner fire rite.
The rhetoric surrounding kriya as part of the kundalini practice in both the pop-culture literature and the local yoga class pigeonhole it is as a form of breath exercise. This is true of the practice in a general sense yet it is not reflective of the totality. Kriya yoga is “usually understood to mean “yoga as practice” or “practical yoga,” …[it is] also associated with the vocabulary of initiation and sacrifice, and is of importance within schools of tantra…” This inner fire (kriya)

So, obviously, "practical yoga," " yoga of ritual action," is, in general, correct, but off the mark here. "Inner fire [rite]" is the relevant term here, begging further Google-search. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Perception312 (talk) 15:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Good. Google Scholar:

• Y. Bentor, Interiorized fire rituals in India and in Tibet, Journal of the American Oriental Society, 2000: "Later Hindu schools developed the inner fire ritual still further, calling their own practices 'inner sacrifice'"
• How we use heat / tapas in kundalini yoga - makes sense, tapas = heat, burning-up the defilements; also, the first of tge three limbs of Patanjali's Kriya Yoga (which are repeated in the eight limbs)
• Kriya Yoga: the True Ancient Fire Ceremony. From Yogananda’s original Bhagavad Gita commentaries - the interiorisation of the fire-ritual. Note, by the way, that the Buddha also used Vedic terminology: the three fires of the Vedic ritual, but then referring to the passions (defilements); that is, mocking the Vedic ritual as perpetuating earthly existence, and offering a viable alternative.

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Also of note, Yogananda's explanation of the etymology of Kriya Yoga, from Ch. 26 of his autobiography [3] as found on wikisource:

The Sanskrit root of KRIYA is KRI, to do, to act and react; the same root is found in the word KARMA, the natural principle of cause and effect. KRIYA YOGA is thus "union (yoga) with the Infinite through a certain action or rite."

So Yogananda also defines Kriya Yoga as a "rite", a rite which I agree is not intended to be merely external or superstitious in nature. Perhaps this quote is a more direct way to show Yogananda's use of the terms than to use yogananda.com's explanation of the technique to claim, without a secondary source, that Yogananda uses "kriya" to refer to revolving the life energy. If we are ever to address the WP:PSTS tag on this article, we should be careful about drawing conclusions using primary sources. Perception312 (talk) 17:00, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Primary sources can be used for the topic/subject's 'self-understanding', though I'm starting to wonder if Yogananda really knows where the name came from. 'Union through a certain act' is still non-explanatory; we also have to mention what the "certain" is referring to. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Excellent work on this section! It looks much more complete and on-point now. Perception312 (talk) 14:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Article name

I wonder if the title for this article (Kriya Yoga school) could be more natural or recognizable without losing precision. To me, school evokes a building or institution of learning. A more natural title might be "Kriya Yoga technique" or "Kriya Yoga tradition". Hopefully either of these would still distinguish the topic from others on Wikipedia.

I don't think I've encountered a source that refers to Lahiri Mahasaya and Yogananda's Kriya Yoga as a school. The sources used in the lead section both refer to Lahiri Mahasaya and Yogananda's Kriya Yoga as a technique. (Miller 1995, pg. 183, 429) (Jones and Ryan 2007, pg. 256, 393, 513) Jones and Ryan also use the words teaching(s) (61, 392), practice (122, 256, 394, 518), and system (518) in connection with this subject. Maybe I'm missing something though.

I haven't moved/renamed a page before, but I understand there's sometimes a sort of vote. Not sure if that would be necessary here. Any thoughts? Perception312 (talk) 16:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

School, tradition or system would be synonymously, all translating darshana and sampradaya. But "school" is a commonly used word; it may not be perfect, but it's workable here, I think. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I trust your judgement. I suppose there is no perfect translation for sampradaya. Perception312 (talk) 17:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)