Talk:Kouroukan Fouga/Archive 1

Archive 1

RFC dispute at Constitution

There is a NPOV dispute going on at Talk:Constitution, there is one editor who has declared himself to be an "expert" and has declared that there are "Principles of Successful Constitutions" without stating explicitly what the principles are, he is trying to write that they must come from Aristotle, Plato, and John Mason or else they "don't count" as successful Constitutions. I responded that this was highly POV and gave a number of counter examples including this one, but by Circular logic, he argues that my examples don't count as "successful" because they didn;t come from Aristotle, Plato, and John Mason, therefore they cannot possibly be regarded as "successful". Please share your comments. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Historical sources

The exact origin of the so called charter should be checked. In the original works of Djibril Tamsir Niane Recherches sur l'Empire du Mali au Moyen Age Recherches africaines . No. 1, janvier 1959. p. 6-56 , no reference made to any tradition of the consitution of Soundiata; may be other oral research has been undertaken since. To be found. Otherwise the article has to be completely redrafted.XavierV 19:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Slaves ?

How come that slaves had equal rights to their masters ? --Pascal Boulerie (talk) 13:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

As I understand it (I started this article some time back), slaves were not equal in Manden. They simply couldn't be "abused". Slavery in many parts of Africa, West Africa in particular, was more akin to European serfdom than American chattel slavery. People were tied to a person or their family for a generation until becoming part of the family. During this time of legal limbo (not quite family and not quite an outsider with no benefits), a person was termed a slave. Slaves were captured in war or purchased from traders. They basically had the status of children. And like children, they were expected to obey but not be abused unreasonably (torture or death). All Sunjata did was codify the tradition of slavery in explicit royal decree. Mali was definately a slave-owning society, but you probably lived under the same conditions as a slave in Medieval Mali as you would as a serf in Medieval Russia or France. Hope that cleared that up. Scott Free (talk) 02:02, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Manden charter

Manden charter both redirects here and is on the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity. As such it should be mentioned in this article, which it currently is not. Hyacinth (talk) 02:50, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

nature as "constition" or "human rights declaration"

Clearly, Kouyaté thinks that he has reconstructed an actual charter from the 14th century. I suppose this would make it a "constitution" according to the expansive definition we seem to use at Constitution (which also makes the Magna Charta a constitution). At no point does he pretend this is a "human rights charter" or anything of the kind. Of course, what this really is is a Lönnrot-style compilation of the oral culture of Guinea in the year 1998. Whether any shred of this can be argued to go back to the 14th century is anyone's guess, and evaluation of this question will need to rely on peer-reviewed publications.

The only part of Kouyaté's commentary which is even remotely related "human rights" is this,

"The statement 20 of the Charter pointed out the condition of the slaves by humanizing it."

now it is difficult to make sense of most of what Kouyaté writes, but I suppose this is intended to mean that paragraph 20 of his text calls for the humane treatment of slaves. --dab (𒁳) 13:41, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

What we are dealing with

As the previous version of the article stated:

Although the Kourukan Fouga is purported to be a relatively faithful reproduction of a charter created in the fourteenth century, some modern-day agents have sought to cast doubt on this achievement, opining instead that the Kouroukan Fouga must be strictly a modern oral tradition.

I think that about says it all. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

It would say it all if it was referenced. Who said it was "a relatively faithful reproduction of a charter created in the fourteenth century", and who reacted to this by "casting doubt" on the claim? And what's with the atrocious weasling à la "is purported" and "some modern-day agents"? Seriously, "some modern-day agents"? As opposed to those making the authenticity claim, who are somehow not "modern-day agents"??

When, where and on what page? The gist of the Epic of Sundiata literature is that this is oral tradition, significantly recast during the first half of the 20th century, which might contain some historical nucleus here or there. Nothing even close to "a relatively faithful reproduction" of 14th century history (which is perfectly normal for oral tradition, nobody would expect it, and the burden of proof lies with those who make such sensationalist claims under WP:REDFLAG) --dab (𒁳) 13:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

It turns out that the guy who came up with the reconstruction is himself also one of the authorities. So it is fair to say that he actually composed the text, because he could use himself as his own authority at will, knowing "the essential point" beforehand. This sort of concludes my interest in this topic, we are cleary dealing with a rather pedestrian case of national myth-making once again. --dab (𒁳) 14:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Dump of Kouyaté's text

This text is presumably copyrighted. It dates to 1998, and the "re-published" version cited here dates to 2006. Unless it was explicitly stated as released into the public domain by Kouyaté, quotations must follow "fair use". If it can be shown to be in the Public Domain, it should be transferred to Wikisource. --dab (𒁳) 13:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi and thanks for taking an interest in this article. I'm just now seeing this section of the talk page after restoring the articles. As far as fair use, Kouyate's version was in French. I had to read and translate this into the English you see now. I'm not sure how that affects copyrights, as he did not compose the information originally (like a song or novel). This would fall into the same category as the Bill of Rights or Magna Carta I guess.Scott Free (talk) 07:10, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

text dump cut from article

Social Organization Article 1: The Great Mande Society is divided into sixteen clans of quiver carriers, five clans of marabouts, four groups of "nyamakalas" and one group of slaves. Each one has a specific activity and role. Article 2: The "nyamakalas" must devote themselves to tell the truth to the chiefs, to be their counsellors and to defend by the speech the established rulers and the order upon the whole territory. Article 3: The five clans of marabouts are our teachers and our educators in Islam. Everyone has to hold them in respect and consideration. Article 4: The society is divided into age groups. Those born during a period of three years in succession belong to the same age-group. The members of the intermediary class between young and old people, should be invited to take part in the making of important decisions concerning the society. Article 5: Everybody has a right to life and to the preservation of physical integrity. Accordingly, any attempt to deprive one's fellow being of life is punished with death. Article 6: To win the battle of prosperity, the general system of supervision has been established to fight against laziness and idleness. Article 7: The sanankunya (joking relationship) and the tanamannyonya (blood pact) have been established among the Mandenkas. Consequently any contention that occurs among these groups should not degenerate the respect for one another being the rule. Between brothers-in-law and sisters-in-law, between grandparents and grandchildren, tolerance should be the principle. Article 8: The Keïta family is nominated reigning family upon the empire. Article 9: Children's education behooves the entire society. The paternal authority in consequence falls to everyone. Article 10: We should offer condolences mutually. Article 11: When your wife or your child runs away, stop running after them in the neighbour's house. Article 12: The succession being patrilinear, never relinquish power to a son when one of his father's brothers is still alive. Never relinquish power to a minor just because he has goods. Article 13: Never offend the Nyaras (the talented). Article 14: Never offend women, our mothers. Article 15: Never beat a married woman before her husband has tried to correct the problem. Article 16: Women, apart from their everyday occupations, should be associated with all our managements. Article 17: Lies that have lived for 40 years should be considered like truths. Article 18: We should respect the law of primogeniture. Article 19: Any man has two parents-in-law: the parents of the girl we failed to have and the speech we deliver without any constraint. We have to hold them in respect and consideration. Article 20: Do not ill treat the slaves. We are the master of the slave but not the bag he carries. Article 21: Do not follow up with your constant attentions the wives of the chief, of the neighbour, of the marabout, of the priest, of the friend and of the partner. Article 22: Vanity is the sign of weakness and humility the sign of greatness. Article 23: Never betray one another. Respect your word of honour. Article 24: In Manden, do not maltreat the foreigners. Article 25: The ambassador does not risk anything in Manden. Article 26: The bull confided to your care should not lead the cattle-pen. Article 27: A girl can be given in marriage as soon as she is pubescent without age determination. Article 28: A young man can marry at age 20. Article 29: The dowry is fixed at 3 cows: one for the girl, two for the father and mother. Article 30: In Mande, divorce is tolerated for one of the following reasons: the impotence of the husband, the madness of one of the spouses, the husband's incapability of assuming the obligations due to the marriage. The divorce should occur out of the village. (The French version published in 1998 does not include this article, but splits article 34 into two, numbering the intervening articles differently). Article 31: We should help those who are in need. Of Goods Article 32: There are five ways to acquire property: buying, donation, exchange, work and inheriting. Any other form without convincing testimony is doubtful. Article 33: Any object found without a known owner becomes common property only after four years. Article 34: The fourth heifer born is the property of the guardian of the heifer. One egg out of four is the property of the guardian of the laying hen. Article 35: One bovine should be exchanged for four sheep or four goats. Article 36: To satisfy one's hunger is not robbery if you don't take away anything in your bag or your pocket. Preservation of Nature Article 37: Fakombè is nominated chief of hunters. Article 38: Before setting fire to the bush, don't look down at the ground, raise your head in the direction of the top of the trees to see whether they bear fruits or flowers. Article 39: Domestic animals should be tied during cultivation and freed after the harvest. The dog, the cat, the duck and the poultry are not bound by the measure. Final Disposals Article 40: Respect kinship, marriage and the neighbourhood. Article 41: You can kill the enemy, but not humiliate him. Article 42: In big assemblies, be satisfied with your lawful representatives. Article 43: Balla Fassèkè Kouyaté is nominated chief of ceremonies and main mediator in Manden. He is allowed to joke with all groups, in priority with the royal family. Article 44: All those who will transgress these rules will be punished. Everyone is bound to make effective their implementation.

Archive 1