Talk:Korea under Japanese rule/Archive 3

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Korean Language

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

I've added twice { { citation needed } } on the sentence "The Japanese administrative policy shifted further towards cultural assimilation in the 1930s (同化政策; dōka seisaku), and as a result, all public classes were taught in Japanese language with a Korean language as an elective", having it removed the first time by someone else. I have never seen a single citation indicating this might be true but I have seen a lot of anti-Japanese radicals online blindly stating this as a fact.

After scanning the Japanese and Korean wiki articles with the help of google translate I have figured out

1) After the second sino-japanese war, the idea of a unified Japan-Korea became prominent meaning after a few years of this idea becoming popular, both inside Japan and Korea alike, Koreans were taught they were Japanese, that Korea was part of Japan, and that the Korean language was a dialect of Japanese.

2) Despite apparently placing a lot of resources teaching the Korean language and hangul in schools (Japanese educators can almost be credited for reviving Korean hangul from Chinese hanja), including standardizing the entire spelling system etc, in 1942 Korean language courses became mostly optional. Japanese was not used for normal classes but there was a greater push to teach Japanese at this point.

3) After this point there are statistics like by 1944, 8 times as many Koreans could speak Japanese than before. *This doesn't mean the Korean language was eradicated or that the government forced people to stop speaking Korean, an educated guess would say most were bilingual and spoke Japanese for business etc, it just appears maybe towards 1942 there was a greater push to teach people Japanese than earlier periods. Certainly 1930 is the wrong date as during 1930 all courses were taught in Korean and there was a strong emphasis on hangul by the Japanese government.

At any rate the entire section seems misguided and written on false premises. "The Korean Language Society and Alphabet Day being founded as a reaction to the Koran language being banned in 1930?" No, if anything it was established during the period of time hangul was most celebrated and standardized by Japanese educators, as a testament to hangul having replaced hanja at that point in Korean history. To imply that it was in some way reactionary to Japanese pushes to outright ban the Korean language appears to be pulling on straws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.108.157.56 (talk) 17:29, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I've found a couple amazing sources discussing the occupation period in detail, with dates, policy, and relevant background information during the time period -- all in English and without these vague, loaded statements you find everywhere.

A lot of sources on the Internet appear very biased, even some "official" looking sources which might have a single page mentioning a lot of vague, "bad things" that happened during the occupation period, never going into detail but clearly carrying an agenda. Of course there was a great deal of assimilation occurring during the entire period but it wasn't quite as dramatic as “Japan destroyed Korean culture, banned Korean history, and then outlawed Korean language” etc etc. Contrary to this notion of “destruction”, for most of the period, Korean culture was promoted, and not just inside Korea but in Japan as well (not out of benevolence, but promoted nonetheless).

Some of the more dramatic policies were outlined and started during the 1940s (particularly in 1943) as an effort to strengthen the war effort but were never fully implemented. Simply listing a bunch policy from a government report that was planed (though not fully realized) during the last couple of years as de facto what was going on for half a century is a bit dishonest (and so I have added these dates and policies, some for earlier periods, which included for example discrimination which I mention, but also real advances in social standing which I did not comment on).

At any rate I've added citation to the sentence in question with an accurate date and an accurate policy. I also updated a paragraph in /* Education */, adding mention of the two education systems present in Korea and the fact that Korean history was taught not just in Korean language schools but in Japanese schools as well. The paragraph wasn't in my opinion biased but, as it stood, was factually incorrect. I've added citation there as well. 75.108.157.56 (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

-Really? I wasn't aware that King Sejong didn't actually create the hangul and that the Korean language was never separate from neither China or Japan. Too bad the Japanese revived the hangul to keep China away only to ban it again in Korea as a way to flex their muscles to them.

Should an article about a country include anecdotes from newspaper reports?

Latest comment: 10 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

The lengthy excerpt from New York Outlook is fascinating but hardly encyclopedic. An academic source justifying the use of anecdotes is desirable, otherwise I will simply remove this quote. Shii (tock) 15:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

serious analysis written by a leading scholar (Kennan) is a good reliable source for Wikipedia. This was not written by a casual reporter. There is no requirement that it be in a book. please keep it. Rjensen (talk) 00:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

If he's a leading scholar why did he have to publish in a news magazine? Shii (tock) 00:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

today there are hundreds of scholarly journals that would publish his material--in 1905 the political science association had not yet been formed and there were only a couple of scholarly journals. Therefore scholars (like Frederick Jackson Turner or Alfred Thayer Mahan) commonly used elite newspapers to report their findings. Rjensen (talk) 01:13, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:RSN determined that the section was a primary source and should not have been quoted at such length. Shii (tock) 22:15, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Serious concerns about citing R.J. Rummel

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Reviewing his published online work "Statistics of Democide: Chapter 3", I do not believe R.J. Rummel to be a reliable source. His claims are substantiated by his own exceedingly diverse estimates, such as a death toll of "3,000,000 to over 10,000,000" by the Japanese government, including "270,000 to 810,000" Korean labourers. These data are averaged without precision-frequently, statistics are given only a 'probably' to support them. Additionally, his language shows blatant contempt for the Japanese government; he has not even finished his opening before declaring the institution "morally bankrupt". The only outside source employed is the official death toll presented at the Tokyo War Crime Trial, used to defend PoW and interned civilian deaths. I find no compelling reason to believe his other findings (being a professor emeritus does not make one immune from bias), and therefore move that his claims on Korean laborers be removed from the article. Secretkeeper12 (talk) 21:34, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the slow reply, I was looking into the claims made by Rummel, but I agree with you -- he doesn't seem to have good enough evidence for his rather extreme claims. Shii (tock) 15:56, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Unnatural wording, unverifiable claims

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The last paragraph under section 7 - Korean Independence Movement concerns me in a couple of places. Aside from a few grammatical errors, which I didn't think important to correct if the paragraph needs to be cleaned up anyway, there are a few claims which are either unverifiable, conflict another article, or lack sources. For example, the sentence, "However, they never fought against Japan" (referring to the Korean Liberation Army) is vague, and contradicts the linked article on the Korean Liberation Army. Also vague is the following sentence, "Afterwards, they became leaders of South Korea." Following that is an un-cited claim that "On the other hand, Kim Il-Sung led tens of thousands of Koreans volunteered (sic) for the National Revolutionary Army and the People's Liberation Army." Whether or not he led these volunteers is not verified, and where or to what he led them is also in question here. The assumption could be in a fight against Japan (in contrast to the claim made that the Korean Liberation Army did not fight against Japan), but the evidence is not strong enough to make that inference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.208.107 (talk) 04:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

You're right that section is a mess and requires a thorough clean-up.

Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 12:52, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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External links modified

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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potential sources

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I identified the following sources for the claim "On May 3, 1894, 1,500 Qing forces appeared in Incheon...." in section Korea under Japanese rule#Donghak Revolution and First Sino-Japanese War by checking the article for the Donghak Revolution.

McClain, James L. (2002). Japan, a Modern History. New York: W.W. Norton & Company. p. 297. ISBN 9780-3930-4156-9.
Boulger, Demetrius Charles; Hazeltine, Mayo W. (1893). "The War with Japan and Subsequent Events". China. Kessinger Publishing (reprint 2010). p. ???. ISBN 9781-1633-3067-8.

If anyone would verify and add them that would be great. -- Grand dad mania (talk) 00:50, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

eyewitness account of the assassination of queen min

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I propose to remove the unverifiable claim (highlighted in bold) "according to a Russian eyewitness, [...], a group of Japanese agents [...] killed Queen Min, and desecrated her body in the north wing of the palace." at the end of Korea under Japanese rule#Assassination of Queen Min. Particularly because in the full eyewitness account, available on the internet archive (follow citation in the main article), there is no mention of such a claim and furthermore, in the account, he claims to have never seen the queen nor does he know where the queen was. Thus this claim does not derive from the eyewitness account in question and should be removed. Rewording is possible as it is mentioned in the account that "some Japanese were rummaging around in every corner of the palace and in the various annexes, others burst into the queen's wing and threw themselves upon the women they found there" however this may be irrelevant. -- Grand dad mania (talk) 01:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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The spanish flu occured during this time period

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Is there any knowledgable sources on how that affected the country at the time? How many Koreans and Japanese died, did it contibute to the 1918 rice shortage, etc? Did it affect the culture at the time in any way? Did it affect Japans power at all? Alexamato (talk) 06:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

First sentence under "Japan-Korea Treaty of 1876"

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Was the first sentence of that section copy-pasted from another article? Because it is formatted as if there was a section in the article that talked about events three years before 1876. It seems to just be a minor formatting mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.72.1.96 (talk) 15:24, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Japanese population?

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

How many Japanese were in Korea at its peak and when the country surrendered in August of '45? – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 09:04, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Illegitimate Barrister: According to the Statistical Yearbook of Korea in 1942 published in 1944, Population of Japanese was 752,823, Korean was 25,525,409, and others was 83,169. This is the last statistics of Korea under Japanese rule.^[1]―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:21, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

References

^ "朝鮮総督府統計年報" [Statistical yearbook of Korea 1942]. Governor General of Korea. 1944. p. Frame Number 19.

Precisely what I was looking for, thanks. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 11:42, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Korean laborers in combat roles during WWII

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

During World War II, American soldiers frequently encountered Korean soldiers within the ranks of the Imperial Japanese Army. Most notably was in the Battle of Tarawa, which was considered during that time to be one of the bloodiest battles in U.S. military history. A fifth of the Japanese garrison during this battle consisted of Korean laborers who were trained in combat roles. Like their Japanese counterparts, they put up a ferocious defense and fought to the death.

This paragraph in the article cites two sources, but neither of them claims Korean laborers were trained in combat roles. Are there any better sources for if Koreans, effectively slave laborers the Japanese brought in to make up manpower shortages, actually fought against American troops? If so, did they hate Americans or were they at gunpoint from the Japanese?

I believe that the Korean laborers were youths and untrained in combat, which would explain the lack of source material.

I remember hearing somewhere that there were Korean kamikaze pilots who flew for Japan. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 23:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Link to disambiguation page in infobox

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In the first infobox (Template:Infobox country), the word 'government' links to Politics of Korea. It somehow does this automatically, I've looked at the template syntax but I can't figure out why it does. However, Politics of Korea is a disambiguation page, because the topic can refer to the politics of Joseon Korea, South Korea or North Korea - none of which are applicable here, so it shouldn't link to anything at all. I don't now how to fix this, however! Lennart97 (talk) 19:34, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Inconsistencies on cause of death of Yi Tjoune in Wikipedia

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

This article cites a source that he commited suicide. However, Hague_Secret_Emissary_Affair claims that this is a myth, but I don't find any sources for that. The Wiki page on Yi Tjoune claims that his cause of death is unkown, which is maybe a more careful statement, though it is lacking sources as well. So I think it should be good to:

find and compare (contradictory) sources on Yi Tjoune
choose a more careful, neutral phrasing
make it consistent the different Wikipedia pages mentioning his death

--Elimik31 (talk) 12:26, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I just found this problem was already mentioned Talk:Hague_Secret_Emissary_Affair#Did_Yi_Tjoune_commit_suicide? --Elimik31 (talk) 12:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

"Chosen, Japan" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Chosen, Japan. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 26#Chosen, Japan until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Usedtobecool ☎️ 09:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Does the entire article need an “unreliable sources” template?

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I found a recent edit by Yuorvee drastic enough to warrant input from other editors. They want to add a template warning readers that the entire article’s sources are unreliable. Because of the highly fraught politics involved with this article’s subject, I have no doubt that individual sources may be questionable and partisan, but not everything. If other editors want to go ahead and approve using such a template, I have no problem with it, but it would be preferable to get consensus on it first. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

NPOV

Latest comment: 8 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please make sure to write in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. The facts are already horrific enough; extra emotion just makes the atrocities seem exaggerated and gives fuel to denialists. toobigtokale (talk) 04:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

[1] "朝鮮総督府統計年報" [Statistical yearbook of Korea 1942]. Governor General of Korea. 1944. p. Frame Number 19.

[1]