Talk:Keith Park

Neutral point of view

Much language in this article (and the Big Wing) is both pointed and loaded. A quick check of the edit history points to a single editor, conveniently without a talk page, who apparently has an axe to grind, valid or not, against Bader in particularly and Leigh-Mallory, and conversely, has exalted Park and Dowding. Opinonated assertions have been inserted without documentation and worse, without being challenged. I don't know the truth of it, and am not likely to ever find out, but inflated assessment of these articles reflects negatively on assessments of other articles in the wikiproject, including articles I do care about.--Reedmalloy (talk) 10:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Agree completely. There is a lot of emotive language in this material that is not fitting for an encyclopaedic work. It still requires serious revision to bring it to an acceptable standing for a non-partisan reference summary work. 193.208.9.78 (talk) 15:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

The point is that a number of Park's critics, such as Leigh-Mallory, Bader, etc., failed to understand Fighter Command's primary purpose, which was not to shoot down enemy aircraft per se, but was actually to prevent attacking enemy bombers successfully bombing their targets. This remained so until the formation of RAF Strike Command.

... shooting them down after they had successfully bombed and destroyed Britain's means to fight back, e.g., the airfields, the factories producing munitions, etc., was too late. That was the difference between strategy, and tactics. Park understood this, and could see the big picture, as did Dowding; Leigh-Mallory and Bader didn't, and it appears, couldn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.55.42 (talk) 12:07, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

translation in french

hello I see that this article is not complete trantlate in french. Any help is welcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vendée globe 44 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Ian's comments

Hi Zawed, a very good read. Not actually too familiar with Park except for, naturally enough, his BoB service and the abortive RAAF command episode. So I learnt a lot, especially re. his acedom in WWI and times in South America. Some thoughts for future assessments:

• I'd say this is pretty well good to go for GAN -- my copyedit was mainly for prose rather than content but the balance and tone seem reasonable to me, and image licensing and sourcing look satisfactory (as they should be for B-Class of course).
• For A-Class/FA, I think we need to try and nail down his somewhat confusing record of victories, which on a quick scan seem to range from 11 to 20 -- I'd have thought Above the War Fronts would give the most definitive answer but you haven't used that as the source for his total; the Osprey edition on Bristol F.2 aces would also be worth a cross-check (I don't have copies of either book).

• I don't have access to "Above the War Fronts" but think that my library may have the Osprey book on Bristol aces. I will have a look next time I am in there. Zawed (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, Above the War Fronts and the others in that Grub Street series don't seem the easiest to track down -- I wonder if Georgejdorner might have access to it... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Actually, Keith Parks is listed in Above the Trenches with 20 victories. If it will be of use, I could bang out a copy of his victory list.Georgejdorner (talk) 09:57, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• George, that would be fantastic -- would you be able to just scan or photograph the tally page and wiki-email to Zawed and me? I've never seen Above the Trenches, does it have a specific entry on each ace, as well as a tally sheet? If there's an entry on Park, it would be great to get that as well as a tally sheet, if not too much trouble... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• Sorry George, are you able to send this stuff? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

  Here's what I could throw together.

  See also: Aerial victory standards of World War I § Great Britain and the British Commonwealth

  Confirmed victories in the list are numbered and listed chronologically. This is a complete listing of all Park's known victories, per Above the Trenches, page 297.

  Park's observers are listed in the Remarks column. Their cites are from Above the War Fronts, page given.

No.	Date/time	Foe	Result	Location	Remarks
1	24 March 1917 @ 1740 hours	Albatros D.III	Driven down out of control	Off Ravensyde	A. W. Merchant
2	12 August 1917 @ 1045 hours	Albatros D.III	Driven down out of control	South of Slype	2/Lt Arthur Noss<p. 40>
3	16 August 1917 @ 1130 hours	DFW C	Driven down out of control	Slype	2/Lt Arthur Noss<p. 40>
4	17 August 1917 @ 0655 hours	Albatros D.III	Driven down out of control	3 miles west of Slype	2/Lt Arthur Noss<p. 40>
5	17 August 1917 @ 0655 hours	Albatros D.III	Destroyed	3 miles west of Slype	2/Lt Arthur Noss<p. 40>
6	17 August 1917 @ 0715 hours	Albatros D.III	Driven down out of control	Off Slype	2/Lt Arthur Noss<p. 40>
7	17 August 1917 @ 0725 hours	Albatros D.III	Driven down out of control	Slype	2/Lt Arthur Noss<p. 40>
8	21 August 1917 @ 0745 hours	Albatros D.V	Driven down out of control	2 miles east of Westende	W. O'Toole<pp. 40-41>
9	21 August 1917 @ 0745 hours	Albatros D.V	Driven down out of control	East of Westende	W. O'Toole<pp. 40-41>
10	25 August 1917 @ 2000 hours	Albatros D.V	Set afire and destroyed	South of Slype	2/Lt Arthur Noss<p. 40>
11	2 September 1917 @ 0930 hours	Albatros D.V	Driven down out of control	5 miles east of Dixmude	A. D. Light
12	2 September 1917 @ 0935 hours	Albatros D.V	Driven down out of control	Southeast of Dixmude	A. D. Light
13	5 September 1917 @ 1200 hours	Albatros D.V	Destroyed	4 miles off Ostende	Aero Mechanic 2nd Class H. Lindfield<p. 32>
14	9 September 1917 @ 1615 hours	Albatros D.V	Driven down out of control	Midelkerke-Slype	Aero Mechanic 2nd Class H. Lindfield<p. 32>
15	14 September 1917 @ 1845 hours	Albatros D.V	Driven down out of control	North of Dixmude	2/Lt H. Owen<p. 41>
16	14 September 1917 @ 1845 hours	Albatros D.V	Set afire and destroyed	North of Dixmude	2/Lt H. Owen<p. 41>
17	3 January 1918 @ 1210 hours	Albatros D.III	Driven down out of control	St Quentin	J. H. Robertson
18	18 May 1918 @ 1840 hours	Pfalz D.III	Driven down out of control	Bray	G. J. Maynard
19	25 June 1918 @ 1125 hours	Rumpler C	Destroyed	Wiencourt	H. Knowles
20	25 June 1918 @ 1130 hours	DFW C	Driven down out of control	Bayenvillers	H. Knowles

Georgejdorner (talk) 09:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Tks so much George -- I don't think tables like being indented so removed that (it now appears at the end of the discussion but at least as you intended otherwise)... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:34, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Zawed, my suggestion FWIW is to leave as is the combat descriptions already in the article where they agree in essence with what George has supplied, and replace or add in the details from George's table that disagree with what's there or aren't in there as yet. As far as his total goes, you could still report the pair that give him only 11 as well as the 20 from this source, although I'd obviously put my money on Above the Trenches/War Fronts. Then again, if you get hold of the Osprey Bristol Fighter book and it says 20 (which I expect it would given Osprey usually agrees with Grub Street in my experience) then maybe it's simpler to just drop the other total sources entirely... WDYT? George, if you want to weigh in this point, would value your opinion too... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:00, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Ian Rose, I have gone through and revised the relevant section as needed. There was the odd inconsistency between Orange and Above the Trenches, which is probably the Fog of War (and time). I also added some discussion regarding his final tally. See what you think. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 05:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, looks good -- I tweaked a bit but nothing major. Let me wrap up the GAN when I get another sec... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:47, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, just re-reading, I can see a couple of discrepancies as you're alluding...

• First, the initial victory is 24 March 1917 in the AtT table but 24 July in the article -- I'm guessing 24 July must be right as he doesn't seemed to have joined his fighter squadron until July so I'd leave as is.
• Second, Orange reckons Park killed Otto Hartmann on 3 September, which isn't in the AtT table at all. I think it's likely Orange has made an error, if we check Hartmann's WP bio his death is cited to another Grub Street publication, Above the Lines, as being at the hands of another Bristol Fighter crew. Given the doubt, I'd take Hartmann out of Park's article.
• Third, the DFW destroyed after claiming Pernet is implied in our article to be on the same day as Pernet but AtT indicates 9 September, so I think I'd tweak that and add a cite to AtT. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:38, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• Hi Ian Rose, revised as suggested. Thanks, Zawed (talk) 23:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• Great, I'll head over to the GAN and pass it, and add a link to this discussion. Now that we have that resolved I think you're ready for ACR, unless there was anything else you wanted to add or revise. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

• The other thing with sourcing is that the more recent bio by Rowland seems underused compared to Orange's work. I'm sure Orange is fine -- I used his bios of Coningham and Tedder when taking Peter Drummond, another antipodean air marshal in the RAF who was considered for C-in-C of the RAAF, to A/FA but given Orange is originally from 1984 and Rowland is just last year, before considering ACR/FAC we probably need to go through the latter and augment Orange where necessary (assuming you haven't done so already and found little new, of course).

• The Rowlands book isn't that fantastic actually: it is focused mostly on the BoB and doesn't go into detail regarding Park's career either side of that. That said, I have worked in a few more details that I have cited to Rowlands. Zawed (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Fair enough, at least you're covered now...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• I think it'd be fair to try and work in Tedder's quote on Park (in Bungay but no doubt elsewhere too) that "if ever any one man won the Battle of Britain, he did".

• Done. Zawed (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• The Military Offices table at the end -- this is a bugbear of mine as it's so common -- is not well cited. I don't think the predecessors and successors should be cited in the table, rather they should be mentioned and cited in the main body if they're to be included in the table. I've tried to do this for all my bios. ATM there's nothing in the main body about Hill, Sowrey, Welsh, Pattinson, Harries, Foster, Douglas (re. ME Command), Medhurst or Gowrie.

• I have done this where I can and removed those offices that I can't cite the predecessor and successor. Zawed (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Finally (for now!) do either of the full-length bios discuss Trevor Howard's portrayal in the 1969 film? If so it'd be fair to mention this in the Legacy section (please no In popular culture section!). The film was very much a vindication for Dowding's and Park's leadership, and I think was seen as such at the time.

• Have added some detail on this - from Orange as Rowlands is silent on it. Zawed (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:31, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Ian, thanks for the feedback. I have enacted your suggestions where I can (see my comments above) and will nominate this now for GA. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Cool. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

References