Talk:Keith Flint

This^ is NOT true!

Keith does not have any German or Jewish ancestry at all. And if he does where is the proof? Where is the evidence? There needs to be a citation if this is true but it's not true at all. I have not seen any evidence or proof that Keith's Paternal Grandfather had German Jewish ancestry. Where did this person who wrote the above comment get his facts from? There is no proof. This needs citation. Please fix this Wikipedia. You are right he is English of only Welsh descent. The person who wrote the above comment is wrong. Please change or erase this Wikipedia. Thank-you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.152.109.195 (talk • contribs) 14:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

No longer in article. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

This is stated in The Times obituary. There are few more reliable journalistic sources. Nacentaeons (talk) 09:09, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, a shame that The Times is now subscription-only. But the article now says: "Clive Flint was the son of a German Jewish immigrant and worked as an engineering consultant." Martinevans123 (talk) 10:54, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I have part subscription to the Times if you want me to have a look. Govvy (talk) 11:00, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I see no reason why it shouldn't be there, but by all means take a look. It appears in the Google search snippet. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:02, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Clearly written in the article; "Keith Charles Flint was born in September 1969 in Redbridge, east London, the son of Clive Flint, an engineering consultant whose father was a German Jewish immigrant, and his wife, Yvonne. By the mid-1970s the family had moved to middle-class, lace-curtained suburbia in Springfield, Essex, where Keith grew up in a quiet cul-de-sac." Govvy (talk) 11:08, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I suspect the IP who started this thread is now long gone. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:23, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Date and cause of death

Has the inquest confirmed a date of death? The BBC report does not mention it and the full hearing for the inquest has now been adjourned until 23 July. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding cause of death, we seem to be now saying that, because the inquest has been adjourned, we cannot add suicide categories given the possibility that the death, by hanging, may have been accidental. Given the informal reports already included in the article, this may be being over-cautious? But I guess rules are rules Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we should stick to the rules. Wikipedia should always go by what reliable sources state and since there is no official line on whether his death was suicide at present we should wait until the full inquest is heard and see if it yields any further information. The same can be said for the day he died; we only know he was found dead on 4 March 2019, not his actual date of death. It is not our place on Wikipedia to speculate or assume in these or any other matters, however likely people may think an outcome is/was. Helper201 (talk) 16:32, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Maybe we have to. Although in this case the death has been widely reported as suicide in the press. There has been no suggestion from anyone, including the police and the coroner, that this may have been an accident. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I think the press are only really going off of what his band mate has claimed. I have seen no evidence that concludes this or anyone else saying this was the cause. Official reports are always the most important when it comes to causes of death because it means a medical person should have viewed the body and come to a conclusion through evidence and/or medical analysis. Jury by press or friends/relatives is not usually a good practice, even if they seem to be saying the same thing, partly because the press could just be parroting the view/assumption of the friend/relative, which could be wrong. Helper201 (talk) 16:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

His cause of death was just announced the other day. It was a suicide by hanging. Here's Proof:

link Dump
[https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/prodigy-keith-flint-cause-death-suicide-hanging-803020/] [https://www.aol.com/article/entertainment/2019/03/11/the-prodigy-frontman-keith-flints-cause-of-death-revealed/23689692/] [https://www.tmz.com/2019/03/11/keith-flint-death-hanging-suicide-dead-dies/] [https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8501844/the-prodigy-keith-flint-died-hanging]

Matt Campbell (talk) 14:45, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

As far as I know only the cause of death has been established, not that it was definitely suicide. For example that aol source says this: "The Evening Standard reports that the singer died as the result of hanging, according to a U.K. inquest. “Police attended, all protocols were followed and his death was confirmed as not suspicious,” coroner’s officer Lynsey Chaffe said in a two-minute hearing on Monday. She also noted that Flint’s case will remain under investigation while toxicology reports are compiled". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

The police often use "not suspicious" to imply that no-one else was involved, i.e. the death may have been suicide. But this does not mean a formal decision of suicide has been made. It may have been accidental death, however unlikely that might seem. He may have left a note. etc. This may only come to light when the inquest is reconvened and any/ all evidence is considered. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

List of condolences names

There seems to be a lot of unknown names listed in the article:

Skrillex, Pendulum (drum and bass band), Noisia, Kill The Noise, Zomboy, Caspa, Brian May, Jimmy Page, The Chemical Brothers, James Blunt, Boy George, Gary Numan, Foo Fighters, Ellie Goulding, Daniel Johns, Annie Nightingale, Serge Pizzorno, Clint Mansell, Frank Turner, Azealia Banks, Dizzee Rascal, Lupe Fiasco, Example, Rou Reynolds, Andy C, Ho99o9, John Lydon, Pete Tong

Can we strip this down to a few key people or well-known people? Govvy (talk) 13:45, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

If they each have their own article they are hardly "unknown". On what basis would you choose between them? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

heh, don't know, I would just go with Jimmy Page, The Chemical Brothers, James Blunt, Boy George, Gary Numan, Foo Fighters and Dizzee Rascal. I was wondering if the list should be split between those who were closer to Prodigy and those just giving condolences. Govvy (talk) 13:57, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure how we get away from purely subjective criteria for choosing. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:04, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

O, well, it's not really a big article and I guess it's not really that imposing, I guess we just leave it then. Govvy (talk) 14:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

This list should really be removed entirely and replaced with a line to the effect that there were numerous tributes from industry figures (if that). This list is not encyclopaedic in nature and of negligible value. I would delete it but it is likely to be reinstated. Nacentaeons (talk) 19:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Completely agree. It's just become an unreadable and immaterial list. He was well known by his peers, who expressed their sadness and dismay. This is not unexpected at all. Anastrophe (talk) 20:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I think that would be preferred option to remove the list, I also don't see it as encyclopaedic. Govvy (talk) 22:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I made the change a short while ago. Anastrophe (talk) 22:04, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

heh @Anastrophe: I came to the talk page first before noticing the changes, cheers for fixing it. Govvy (talk) 22:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

There seems to be some degree of irony here. Many of those in the world of entertainment who die get tributes added to their articles. If there are only a small number of tributes, reported only by mainstream sources, they usually survive. In this case there seem to be too many and there is no agreed objective basis to reduced them. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I agree. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: With the rise of social media there will be a lot of tributes, noting in the article like this can border into WP:LISTCRUFT. Govvy (talk) 22:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

You're saying that minor celebrities can have tributes, but very famous ones, especially those who are popular on social media, are not allowed any? Or not allowed any if they get more than a certain number, yes? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:33, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Some musicians like Chris Cornell, Chester Bennington, Avicii, and Mac Miller for example they all received a lot of tributes. Even though they had to create different pages on those. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:36, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I am not saying that at all, I am saying that for a celebrity who is very popular could have a thousand other celebrities pay tribute. Sometimes it's might be best to not have a huge list. I actually didn't think the list here was as bad as I thought. I thought it was about to get a lot more names added to it earlier, I just feel we need to be careful that a tribute list doesn't get out of hand. Govvy (talk) 22:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

So back to my first question - how do we decide which to include by name? You removed them all here because you feared there would be more added? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I didn't remove anything! Those artists who have a direct connection to this artist are the ones who should be added and not indirect tributes. Govvy (talk) 22:45, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

There's already like 25 names listed on here. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, no it wasn't you, was it. It was User:Anastrophe here. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

"Tributes" can be as simple as "he was great, we'll miss him" to lengthy, heartfelt condolences. If there are tributes, then quoting the most eloquent would be appropriate, assuming - as with just the list - that it doesn't become overpowering. There's no question of his influence in music; I certainly have no objection to acknowledging that many artists/groups expressed their feelings of loss, and quoting a few of the best. It's not a popularity contest - it needs to remain neutral, avoid WP:UNDUE, but acknowledge his influence. Anastrophe (talk) 22:51, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Sounds like a good compromise. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Brian May and Jimmy Page should be included. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Why, I fail to see how Jimmy Page would have any direct connection to Flint, I don't know about Brian May. Govvy (talk) 22:58, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I read that the band "Queen" was a huge impact on Keith. Also they knew each other also. Matt Campbell (talk) 23:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

So we decide on the basis of direct connection? musical influence? eloquence of tribute? all of these? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:10, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps the best path is for those editors who are interested, to post what they think are the best tributes/eulogies, and we can chatter about which we all agree are the best? Unlike contentious articles, this should be pretty easy to agree on. I'd say - maybe three such that could go in the article? Some people are more eloquent than others - I'm sure we can winnow it down to the most meaningful few. Anastrophe (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, You are probably right. For now it might be best that nobody add's any of those names without talk page consulting first. Matt Campbell (talk) 00:21, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Date of house purchase

Just for the record I added the hidden note: "The Daily Mail says he bought it in 1997, but of course we are not allowed to use that as source". This was obviously not meant to be a visible claim. The source was this. I'm not sure if reporting by the Daily Mail, makes the year more or less reliable. Perhaps a better source could be found. It doesn't really look like a "country mansion" to me, with or without the supposed £2M price tag. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)