Talk:Kamen Rider Black (character)

Merged

I merged Kamen Rider Black RX (character) here because both pages are about Kotaro Minami. It does not make any sense to have the pages separate.--2601:140:8200:DE:3005:7302:9C2B:33D8 (talk) 22:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 21 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. I don't see a strong swell of argument in favour of the move, with some definite opposition, and the conversation has stalled after several weeks. No consensus means we stay at the long standing title that has stood since 2007. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 17:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

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Kamen Rider Black (character) → Kohtaro Minami – This page is now about Kohtaro Minami as Kamen Rider Black and Kamen Rider Black RX so it doesn't make sense to have the page called "Kamen Rider Black". The page should use his name instead. 2601:140:8200:DE:3005:7302:9C2B:33D8 (talk) 22:56, 21 January 2016 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 11:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment there's an edit war on the article page, and this rename seems to be associated with that. -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 05:13, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

  No. That guy was just really and incredibly uninformed as to what happens when pages are merged. It's still a really stupid practice that there were two pages on "Kohtaro Minami" just because in one show he's "Kamen Rider Black" and in the sequel he's "Kamen Rider Black RX".--2601:140:8200:DE:3005:7302:9C2B:33D8 (talk) 09:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose move, preferring the existing title. - Per WP:AT; Kohtaro Minami fails the recognizability aspect of WP:CRITERIA; also fails WP:COMMONNAME. As an aside, it also does not align to MOS:JA standards on romanization, which would suggest Kotaro Minami per common usage or Kōtarō Minami per Modified Hepburn. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 03:12, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

  Is the only reason you're opposing because you don't like "Kohtaro"? Because I just want the page to be a different title than "Kamen Rider Black".--2601:140:8200:DE:9557:CA6D:B4F9:693C (talk) 08:33, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Is the only reason you're opposing because you don't like "Kohtaro"? No. Please do not ascribe motives to other editors. I am not convinced that title is aligned with the WP:AT policy & MOS:JA guideline. If you believe that the page should be moved to a different title, please provide policy based reasoning for the move. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 05:13, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

The title just shouldn't be "Kamen Rider Black (character)" because the "Kamen Rider Black RX (character)" page is now part of this one because both are the same character (南光太郎) portrayed by the same actor (Tetsuo Kurata). It just seems that your hangup on this is the fact that "Kohtaro Minami" never caught on, despite "KOHTARO" being on a cake in the TV show 30 years ago. So long as this page's name gets changed to anything resembling the translation of "南光太郎", that should be fine, right?--2601:140:8200:DE:A4F7:B517:D3F5:358 (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• NOTE: I have requested input from uninvolved editors at WT:WikiProject Tokusatsu, WT:WikiProject Japan and WT:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 05:48, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Romanisation - Kohtaro, Kotaro, Kōtarō?

Fellow editors,

In accordance with MOS:JA, I amended the romanisation of 南　光太郎 to Kotaro Minami; this has been reverted given that His name is given on a birthday cake on English letters during episode 2 of Kamen Rider Black. Such in-universe romanisation to "Kohtaro" is to be expected; given the preferential use of Kunrei-shiki & Nihon-shiki romanisation inside Japan.

However, looking at the relevant section of MOS:JA (shown below), I am unable to find a policy or guideline basis which supports the use of this romanisation, even given the evidence of the cake. By my reading, MOS:JA supports: a) Modified Hepburn; b) common usage in reliable English language sources; c) romanisation in Japanese-language sources only where no English-language sources are used.

If an article uses English-language reliable sources and those sources use a particular form of romanization to name a topic, give preference to that romanization in the article title and body text. If an article uses only Japanese-language reliable sources, use the romanization given in them. If no romanization is given by the reliable sources used in an article, use modified Hepburn romanization.

Given the absence of any references for the article, by a strict reading of MOS:JA, we should be defaulting to Modified Hepburn romanisation. I would consider that it is likely, however, that some English language reliable sources could be found, and that we should also examine a common usage romanisation.

On that basis, at the risk of WP:GHITS, the common usage romanisation appears to be: "Kohtaro Minami" 1,410 hits; "Kotaro Minami" 109,000 hits; "Kōtarō Minami" 636 hits.

While many of these will be to non-RS standard sources, given the overwhelming predominance of Kotaro Minami, I suggest that it is not reasonable for us to preference an alternative & maintain alignment with MOS:JA.

Thoughts? - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 06:37, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

People making fan subs and fan translations over the past 10 years have always mysteriously ignored obvious clues and written proof that official translations exist for these things so Google isn't going to help. There are likely to be no reliable English language sources that is character by anything, so that leaves us with whatever we can get from the TV show (unless there are English language publications that use "Kotaro Minami") which counts as a Japanese language reliable source that has a romanization in it. Besides, "Kohtaro" doesn't match either of the other two systems you mentioned which would write his name as "Kôtarô" rather than "Kohtaro".--2601:140:8200:DE:9557:CA6D:B4F9:693C (talk) 08:32, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

As has already been observed the "oho" nonsense is not part of any system at all (try writing names like 大芦 Ōashi or even 大山 Ōyama and you should see what a silly idea it is). The problem is that almost all romanisation attempted by Japanese speakers is a write-only exercise, if it is any more than decoration. No-one is expected to read it. And there is generally no attempt at consistency, because something not intended to be read does not need consistency. So I think the MOS:JA guideline should be changed, to exclude any romanisation attempts occurring in Japanese. Moreover, contra the situation in Japanese texts, en:WP should be seeking to be read, and readable by English readers, so except in overwhelming cases it should use consistent romanisation, for which Hepburn is by far the most widely accepted. Imaginatorium (talk) 14:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

That seems like a really silly idea. Particularly when on this page we're talking about a fictional character from a TV show. Just because you don't like names being written like "Ohno" or "Katoh" doesn't mean that this page shouldn't use "Kohtaro" in its title. But either way, my intention was to have this page be named after whatever translation of 南光太郎 there is rather than it being named after one of two alter egos the character was known by.--2601:140:8200:DE:438:BA66:631D:337 (talk) 22:50, 28 January 2016 (UTC)