Talk:KDR 444

Major overhaul needed

The article is misnamed: The Norwegian term should be “kortdistanseradio” (a single word). Also, as far as I can tell from the [frequency plan], the given frequency range is allocated to PMR/PAMR (PMR, Norwegian channel plan applied (438 - 453 MHz)). The term “kortdistanseradio” does indeed seem to mean PMR restricted to six channels in the 444 MHz band. Finally, the reference given does not work. I am going to delete it. I would edit the article further if I felt qualifed to do so, but I don't. Hanche (talk) 08:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Please fix whatever you can. Is it possible that Norway has changed to the PMR allocation and dropped this service? I find that not reading Norwegian is a terrible limitation in researching this topic. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I see "KDR" and 444 MHZ listed on the band plan, but the channels aren't given. Found a reference. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Good work. Seeing that the Norwegian telecommunication authorities uses the term “Short distance radio” in English, I think the article should be correspondingly renamed. The corresponding term in Norwegian is, as I stated, “kortdistanseradio”. In Swedish it is “kortdistansradio”. I am unfamiliar with proper procedures for changing the name of an article. If someone else wants to do it, that would be good. Afterwards, I can add a line or two on the Norwegian/Swedish names for the service, if needed. Hanche (talk) 14:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

We could call it "Short distance radio" and refer to the Norwegian and Swedish names in the lead; but I somewhat prefer keeping the "Kort distanse" name because it is more distinctive and ties it to the KDR 444 acronym. This may not be (Norwegian) grammatically correct, though. Does a similar article exist in the Norwegian or Swedish Wikis? --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

How about a move to "KDR 444" - that's used by the Norwegian telecom regulator, is distinctive, and matches what the million-and-one walkie-talkie advertisments use. We could also have redirects in case anyone types the proper Swedish or Norwegian un-spaced names. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The rename looks good to me. I don't know of any articles on this in the Norwegian or Swedish wikis. I can translate this one to Norwegian, though. Hanche (talk) 15:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

If you make a translation, please fix the interwiki tag here. We could use a picture of a typical KDR walkie-talkie, though they look just like FRS or GMRS ( or PMR 446) units from what I've seen advertised. It would also be nice to find out when this service was first authorized. I'd also like to know why Norway and Sweden didn't just jump on the PMR 446 bandwagon instead. I wonder how many units are estimated to be in use? --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Will do. It may be a few days, though. My googling turns up no useful information regarding history. I think PMR 446 radios are much more common than the KDR 444 ones, though I cannot document this. I am also discovering that many sources use the term “kortdistanseradio” in a more general sense, also including PMR 446. Hanche (talk) 17:29, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the NPT issued their bulletin in 2003, so that's at least one historical date. It looks like some WT can be set for KDR 444, PMR 446 or both. There's also LPD 433 - this would be cool in North America since 69 channels would take some of the pressure off FRS at high user density areas such as Disney World, but hams would be furious at losing part of their allocation. Perhaps when you create your Norwegian version, some kindly Norwegian-speaking radio hobbyist will be inspired to comment. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:32, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I know that this topic is a bit stale, but still. First, I have never heard the 444 MHz license-free channels referred to as KDR in Sweden. Ever. It's a good acronym, bit it's not in use in Sweden. People do call it SRBR 444 in Sweden though, and this usage is widely accepted. Just do a search on google, for example. I only happened upon this article by chance; I've searched for information about the band on Wikipedia before but didn't find it; this was due to the lack of mention of SRBR. I think it's highly appropriate to at least mention SRBR in this article. The fact that it says business in that acronym is not important; in fact, even though the band is free for all to use (including non-businesses), here in Gothenburg it appears to be used exclusively by businesses anyway. Second, regarding the history of the band, apparently it came about well before PMR 446. At least in Sweden, there seems to have been doubts about the European initiative, which was taking a lot of time to come about, while demand for a similar band was high in Sweden. And so PTS created the 444 MHz band instead, or at least did so as a stop-gap solution. Dsandlund (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I created a redirect page SRBR 444 as a stopgap measure. But perhaps the present page should have another name like KDR444/SRBR444 (or a more generic name?), and both KDR 444 and SRBR 444 should redirect to it. Hanche (talk) 17:35, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

½ or 1 watt

I am certain that PTS states 1 watt in their band plan, and not ½ watt. I have not read it for many years though. Someone should look into it. Dsandlund (talk) 06:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

According to PTSFS 2012:3 - Föreskrifter om undantag från tillståndsplikt för vissa radiosändare, 3 kap 89 §, maximum e.r.p. is currently 2 W in Sweden. I note that PTSFS 2004:8 states 1 W e.r.p. Thus, it seems that things have changed over time and that the current article is inaccurate, at least with regards to Sweden. I will perform appropriate adjustments. Dsandlund (talk) 12:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Norweigan sources are dead links; someone should investigate the current legal limit in Norway. To me it seems unlikely that Norweigan and Swedish legislation would differ here, but someone will have to look it up. Dsandlund (talk) 13:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I read a note at the PTS web site from as recently as last year (2012), indicating that 2012 was the year when the changes regarding power were made. This might be relevant when checking Norweigan legislation on the matter. Dsandlund (talk) 08:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The limit remains 500 mW in Norway. See the reference in my recent update of the main article. Hanche (talk) 17:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Channel numbering

Ok so this is interesting. Looking more closely at PTSFS 2012:3 3 kap 89 §, it seems that in addition to the increased e.r.p., the band has been quitly extended with another two channels! These are at 444.875 and 444.925 MHz. Question is, what channel numbers are appropriate for these? Should they be called channels 7 and 8; should they be called channels 6 and 7 while the old channel 6 is renamed channel 8, or should they be called channels 5x and 5y (loosely based on the naming conventions for amateur radio channels etc)? Where these new channels have been implemented in actual equipment, how have they been numbered there? Discussion on this is welcome. Dsandlund (talk) 14:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I figure that equipment made for the band will most likely number the channels in order of frequency, so I'll make sure the article reflects this for now. Dsandlund (talk) 08:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Bandwith

Where does the 16 kHz bandwith figure come from, the PTS documents say 25 kHz? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.230.140.118 (talk) 06:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't know where the 16 kHz figure comes from. But I only see PTS specifying 25 kHz channel spacing, which is not the same as bandwidth (ie deviation) at all. Have you found a place where PTS specifies a deviation/bandwidth of 25 kHz? It occurs to me that 25 kHz is a very old fasioned deviation; modern radio gear (including amateur radio) operates with a deviation of 12 kHz or less. Thus, 16 kHz seems much more likely than 25 kHz. --Dsandlund (talk) 13:39, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Channel availability in different regions

Someone removed the information I added on two of the channels not being available in Norway. Why? I can find no explanation on this removal at all. If all 8 channels are cleared for use in the UK (allegedly!) and Sweden, that does NOT mean that they are now cleared for use in Norway. I'm restoring this part of the article, until someone can verify the situation in Norway. Dsandlund (talk) 13:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

There is no KDR444 licence exempt regs in the UK or elsewhere, so feel free to focus on the Norway and Sweden situation - Oct 2016 These Freqs are not found in CEPT ECC recommendation 70-03 which are the General low power rules for European use — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.228.195 (talk) 06:32, 7 October 2016 (UTC)