Talk:Jozef van Wissem

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Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://jozefvanwissem.com/about.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. —Darkwind (talk) 02:57, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Removal by 24.42.67.83

I don't know why 24.42.67.83 removed a part of the article persistently and claimed to be the subject of the article. Even if the editor is Mr. Wissem, I don't think it's a valid reason to be engaged in such an edit war. 118.6.150.165 (talk) 15:53, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

The IP is lying. Wissem lives in NYC, and the IP is in Atlanta.--Galassi (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

People always edit from home? People never own two homes in different places? Warped War (talk) 16:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Removal by Jozefboys

Again, I don't know why Jozefboys removed a part of the article. Even though both 24.42.67.83 and Jozefboys insisted that Brethren of the Free Spirit no longer exists (see [1] and [2]), I can't find any evidence. 123.224.99.251 (talk) 16:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

brethren of the free spirit disbanded in 2010 http://www.discogs.com/artist/Brethren+Of+The+Free+Spirit

collaboration with lucas etc is over 10 years old, van wissem has since worked and recorded with Smegma, United Bible Stuides, Richard Bishop, Loren Connors amongst many others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bofs1 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC) — Bofs1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Hi, Bofs1. My IP address has changed, but I'm the same person as 123.224.99.251.

Regarding to Brethren of the Free Spirit, there's no reliable sources indicating that the duo disbanded. Wikipedia articles should be "based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources). Discogs is a user-generated website (see http://www.discogs.com/about), which means it's not a reliable source, but a self-published source.

Regarding to his collaborations with Tetuzi Akiyama and Gary Lucas, several sources such as Dusted, Dusted, Dusted, Dusted, NPR, Pitchfork, Tiny Mix Tapes, and The Wire mention it. In addition, the article says "has collaborated with", not "recently collaborated with". So, even if they collaborated 100 years ago, there's no valid reason to remove them.

You can add more collaborators such as Smegma, United Bible Stuides, Richard Bishop and Loren Connors, if you want to. But please don't forget to verify it by citing reliable sources. 123.225.31.209 (talk) 08:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

regarding brethren of the free spirit band break up Bofs1 (talk) 22:30, 2 January 2013 (UTC)see http://www.myspace.com/thebrethrenofthefreespirit Bofs1 (talk) 22:30, 2 January 2013 (UTC) — Bofs1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

You should verify it by citing reliable sources. In addition, Myspace is generally not acceptable even as a self-published source (WP:NOYT). 123.224.177.11 (talk) 02:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC).

The only website the band has is said myspace site so that should be sufficient. Bofs1 (talk) 05:08, 3 January 2013 (UTC) — Bofs1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It's insufficient. As WP:NOYT states, "MySpace is generally not acceptable even as a self-published source, because most of it is anonymous or pseudonymous. If the identity of the author can be confirmed in a reliable, published source, then it can be used with the caution appropriate to a self-published source." 123.225.39.101 (talk) 12:02, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Lead section

Added info on current duo with JarmuschBofs1 (talk) 22:29, 6 January 2013 (UTC) — Bofs1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. 123.224.113.117 (talk) 22:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Added info on educationBofs1 (talk) 01:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC) — Bofs1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. 123.225.67.178 (talk) 05:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

Jozefvanwissem (talk · contribs · count), the user who claimed to be the subject of the article, is currently engaged in an edit war, and he has already violated 3RR (1 2 3 4 5).

He also said, "POORLY SOURCED BIO". However, the material he has repeatedly removed are verified by reliable sources. 124.85.188.112 (talk) 12:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• FYI, there is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Jozef van Wissem.
• I could not find any reliable source stating that Jozef van Wissem is/was signed to Sony Music Entertainment Japan. According to Sony Music Shop, The Mystery of Heaven was released by Sacred Bones and distributed by Hostess. That's all.
• Regarding to his duo Brethren of the Free Spirit and his collaborations with Keiji Haino, Gary Lucas and Tetuzi Akiyama, see Talk:Jozef van Wissem#Removal by Jozefboys.
• The Joy That Never Ends being "an album with guest musicians such as Jim Jarmusch and Jeanne Madic" is verified by a reliable souce. I don't understand why he persistently removed Jeanne Madic. 122.17.92.54 (talk) 04:07, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

see this link for sony music japan release : http://www.amazon.com/Jozef-Van-Wissem-Jim-Jarmusch/dp/B009GN77Y4 Jozefvanwissem (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

her contribution to the record amounts to only Jozefvanwissem (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)15 seconds.

• Note that I started the discussion here. It might be a good idea to start reverting and see whather something may come out of it.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:52, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

thanks Jozefvanwissem (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry Ymblanter, but please avoid posting the same thread in multiple forums.

According to the link Jozefvanwissem provided above, the catalog number for The Mystery of Heaven is "HSE50077", which means the album is distributed by Hostess Entertainment, not Sony Music Entertainment Japan. See also Billboard Japan and HMV.

His collaborations with Jeanne Madic, Jim Jarmusch, Tilda Swinton, Keiji Haino, Gary Lucas and Tetuzi Akiyama are each mentioned in many reliable sources. There is no valid reason to remove their names on the article.

Regarding to Brethren of the Free Spirit, there's no reliable sources indicating that the duo disbanded. WP:RELIABLESOURCES states that Wikipedia articles should be based on "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Myspace and Discogs are self-published sources. WP:NOYT states that "Myspace is generally not acceptable even as a self-published source, because most of it is anonymous or pseudonymous. If the identity of the author can be confirmed in a reliable, published source, then it can be used with the caution appropriate to a self-published source."

COI editing is strongly discouraged and if it causes disruption to the encyclopedia, accounts may be blocked. See WP:COI. 122.17.48.182 (talk) 05:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Right, since you guys went to the second dozen of reverts, I guess I will report it to ANI.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:52, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I would point out that there's no good evidence that they are still together either. I think it would be safe to say that they were together without making a commitment one way or the other about the present. Mangoe (talk) 12:06, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Mangoe on the collaborators: we have evidence that they were collaborating, in the grammatical past tense, meaning about five years ago. We have no evidence that this collaboration is happening in 2013. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

If that is the case, then it can be conveyed simply by changing the verb tense in the article--it is completely unnecessary for the subject of the article to continue to commit the wholesale-deletion vandalism that he's been edit-warring about. This whole thing is beyond ridiculous. Somebody please block him for vandalism now. Qworty (talk) 19:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, Brethren of the Free Spirit has been inactive since 2010. However, since the duo is the notable actions or roles the person played, the information should not be removed from the lead section. Their collaboration has been mentioned in several reviews for van Wissem's other works. For example, see Dusted Magazine, NPR, and Uncut.

Either way, I'm really concerned about Jozefvanwissem's COI disruptive editing such as 1 2 3. I think the editor should be blocked because his narrow self-interested or promotional activity in article writing indicates that he is not here to build an encyclopedia. 123.225.53.55 (talk) 09:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm just not buying this argument. I admit that I am starting to wonder whether your name is also mentioned in this article, since you're so determined to make it sound like this is all currently happening when everyone agrees that Jozef was actually removing the incorrect assertion that it's still going on. I'm sure it would be helpful to the career of some non-notable artist to make sure that his or her name is highlighted as a current partner of a notable artist on Wikipedia, after all, and your changes have had the net effect of edit warring to keep in falsehoods about who Jozef's current collaborators are. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:32, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Please don't forget to base arguments on Wikipedia policies and guidelines. See WP:OPENPARA. It doesn't matter who his current collaborator is. 122.29.100.41 (talk) 10:45, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I know what OPENPARA says. It says that you include the thing(s) for which the person is notable. Jozef is notable for being a musician. Jozef is not WP:Notable for being a musician in one particular duo. We have fully met the requirements of OPENPARA in the first sentence: "Jozef van Wissem is a Dutch minimalist composer and lute player". "Notable" means "qualifies for its own separate, standalone article on the English Wikipedia". "Being the President of the United States" is a WP:Notable position. "Being half of one particular music group for a couple of years" is not. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:56, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:OPENPARA states that the opening paragraph should have "1. name(s) and title(s)", "2. dates of birth and death", "3. context", "4. the notable activities, positions, or roles the person held", and "5. why the person is significant". Although being the President of the United States is 4 and/or 5, being "a Dutch minimalist composer and lute player based in Brooklyn" is not. Additionally, Jozef van Wissem has released more collaborative albums than solo albums, and his collaborations with other musicians are often mentioned in the reviews for his solo albums. Therefore, I don't think we have fully met the requrements of WP:OPENPARA in the first sentence.

Regarding to WP:N, notability guidelines do not limit content within an article (WP:NNC). 122.17.76.240 (talk) 07:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Both composer and lutenist are WP:Notable and thus qualify as the "the WP:Notable activities, positions, or roles the person held".

The one particular duo does not qualify as a WP:Notable activity, position, or role. The one particular duo therefore is not necessary in the opening paragraph. This is not a case of limiting the article content, because the same information will be included, just where in belongs in the main body rather than up in the first paragraph.

Furthermore, I don't see any WP:Consensus to give this particular duo a namecheck in the first paragraph. Nobody except you appears to believe it's a good idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:06, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

What about the facts that he has released more collaborative albums than solo albums and that his collaborations with other musicians are often mentioned in the reviews for his solo albums?

What about "5. why the person is significant" (WP:OPENPARA)? I don't think Jozef van Wissem is significant just because he is "a Dutch minimalist composer and lute player based in Brooklyn".

Additionally, the word "notable" in "4. the notable activities, positions, or roles the person held" (WP:OPENPARA) has nothing to do with WP:N which is an article notability guideline. Otherwise, You are saying that we can create an article on any composer and lutenist because he/she is notable just being both composer and lutenist.

I don't understand why you are still trying to justify Jozefvanwissem's persistent removal of content like 1, 2 and 3. 122.29.89.203 (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

more people have listened to my solo work than the collaborations, millions of people have heard my solo work on the sims medieval video game. also the discography is not complete.

the list of collaborators is outdated and incomplete. currently i only collaborate with jim jarmusch and tilda swinton. there are over hundred people i have worked/recorded with and i am more known for my solo work, millions of people have heard my solo work on the sims medieval video game. Jozefvanwissem (talk) 16:19, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

When the word notable appears in a Wikipedia guideline, it means WP:Notable. In all other instances, we replace the word with something that can't be confused with wikijargon, like important or significant or famous.

The fact that OPENPARA recommends (with exceptions; see the top of that page) including information about what makes this WP:Notable person be a WP:Notable person does not mean that everyone who has the same skills or occupation is also WP:Notable.

I can easily understand a person removing, rather than correcting, errors about themselves: Editing Wikipedia pages is complicated. We hope to have a better editing system in place later this year, but right now, it's more complicated than the average person wants to deal with. It's far easier to remove errors than to figure out how to correct them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

@Jozefvanwissem Please remember to base arguments on Wikipedia policies and guidelines. You didn't provide any evidence about that more people have listened to his solo albums than his collaborative albums and that millions of people have heard his music on The Sims Medieval. Additionally, it doesn't matter whether the list of his collaborators in the lead section is outdated and incomplete. We are talking about what "4. the notable activities, positions, or roles the person held" and "5. why the person is significant" (WP:OPENPARA) are.

@WhatamIdoing Please stop disruptive editing. You have repeatedly disregarded my questions. What about the facts that Jozef van Wissem has released more collaborative albums than solo albums and that his collaborations with other musicians are often mentioned in the reviews for his solo albums? What about "5. why the person is significant" (WP:OPENPARA)? You can ignore a rule only when it prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia. In this case, you can't.

You seem to misunderstand WP:N. It states that "the notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic should have its own article", and "these notability guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article or list. They do not limit the content of an article or list". If the word "notable" in WP:OPENPARA means WP:N, then why didn't you wikilink "notable" with this edit?

Jozefvanwissem has persistently removed sourced material, not "errors", with edits like 1, 2 and 3. It has undoubtedly caused disruption. "Wikipedia is not a vanity press, or forum for advertising or self-promotion" (WP:COI), and Jozefvanwissem is not here to build an encyclopedia. 123.224.114.61 (talk) 08:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Jozef is entitled to remove errors, whether they are "sourced" or not. WP:BLP is a very strong policy and trumps WP:COI and WP:Disruptive editing.

I understand notability far better than you. In fact, unlike you, I've written a significant portion of that guideline.

You have failed to gain consensus. WP:Consensus, not WP:wikilawyering over whether a particular defunct duo is "significant", is required. You need to show that somebody who is not an unregistered user from Tokyo (i.e., somebody in addition to yourself) agrees with you. You have failed to do that. You have instead encountered uniform opposition to your efforts to promote this defunct duo and to suppress more important information, like the fact that millions of people have heard his music through a video game. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:55, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Please stop disregarding my questions. Your editing behavior has become disruptive. What about the facts that Jozef van Wissem has released more collaborative albums than solo albums and that his collaborations with other musicians are often mentioned in the reviews for his solo albums? What about "5. why the person is significant" (WP:OPENPARA)? If the word "notable" in WP:OPENPARA means WP:N, then why didn't you wikilink "notable" with this edit?

Although a COI editor is entitled to remove errors, what Jozefvanwissem has done is not removing errors. It is clearly narrow self-interested or promotional activity in article writing. Removal of unsourced or poorly sourced material is acceptable and very obvious errors can be fixed quickly by the subject of the article. But beyond that, he/she has to post suggestions on the article talk page, or place {{adminhelp}} on his/her user talk page (WP:BLPSELF).

Regarding to WP:CON, consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. I don't need to show that "somebody who is not an unregistered user from Tokyo" agrees with me because the quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view (WP:TALKDONTREVERT).

Additionally, it's really weird of you to insist that Brethren of the Free Spirit is non-notable here even after I had added more references to the article. Please familiarize yourself with our policies and guidelines. 123.224.94.138 (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

If someone behaves disruptively here it is you. Please stop reverting the page in your every second edit and try to reach consensus first.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Then why don't you join the discussion? It's a pity that you don't seem to understand what disruptive editing is. 123.224.94.138 (talk) 12:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

What discussion? I was the one who initiated it. Since you was so kind to call my edit vandalism, I will file a WP:ANI request now. I guess we are at the point where blocks need to be given out.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:49, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

What did you initiate, really? What you have done to the article is nothing more than repeatedly reverting my edits without explaining why. 123.224.94.138 (talk) 12:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

All of my edits have edit summary which explain why I was reverting your edits. Here we came to consensus and you are the only one who disagrees and uses circular reasoning.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Ymblanter, but consensus on Wikipedia does not mean the result of a vote. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view (WP:TALKDONTREVERT). Please note that saying just "pls stop reverting everybody's edits" and "the edits have been very clearly explained at the talk page, pls stop reverting" is not explaing why you were reverting my edits. 123.224.94.138 (talk) 14:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

It does, and it is a pity that you do not understand this. Edit warring is not acceptable on Wikipedia. Whjat you do is you show up on Wikipedia, every time under a new IP adress, revert the edit, and then go to the talk page to make a new argument which has nothing to do with the policies. Everybody else is already tired to replay to the new arguments you made up, this is why you might have got a visible upper hand. Again: Please stop edit warring. WP:CONSENSUS does not list edit warring as an acceptable sort of behavior. You made here already more than ten reverts.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG. You can not accuse other editors of edit warring when you too are heavily engaged in an edit war. Unfortunately, you have never explained your edits at the talk page. Please note that repeatedly disregarding other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits is disruptive editing. Speaking of what is not acceptable on Wikipedita, did you know that COI editing is strongly discouraged? 123.224.94.138 (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Wrong on both counts: I did explain myself on the talk page, in fact, in this section, and I am not heavily involved in the edit warring. In fact, the article came to my attention because of your edit warring, as I explained on the talk page of one of your reincarnations.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

When did you explain your edits? Please provide the diffs. In fact, you came here immediately after I had begun a discussion at WP:COIN. 123.224.94.138 (talk) 15:34, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not interested in having an endless circular debate, so I am willing to leave you the last word here.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:35, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

It is concluded that Ymblanter has never explained his edits at any talk page, which is clearly disruptive editing. 123.224.94.138 (talk) 15:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

• Please note that I filed a DR request: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Jozef van Wissem. Please comment there.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Galassi (talk · contribs) has just undid my edit, saying "Rv a disruptive edit made against the consensus" in the edit summary. However, my latest edit is different from the previous edit I did. In fact, I restored The Sims Medieval in the lead section as a result of compromise. Meanwhile, I removed some reviews for Jozef van Wissem's two collaborative albums with Jim Jarmusch because there already are articles on Wikipedia, to which I added the Reception section here and here instead. Nevertheless, Galassi undid my edit, which led to removal of some sourced content I added such as The Garden of Forking Paths from the body of the article. To begin with, the sentence stating that "As of 2013, his current collaborators are Jim Jarmusch and Tilda Swinton" can not be supported by the 2012 source! Now, I would like to ask him/her (or other editors) the reason why he/she undid my latest edit. 122.26.248.237 (talk) 22:32, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, please note there is still an ongoing DRN request where we are waiting for your input. It can be found here: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Jozef van Wissem. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 08:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

DRN closed and is archived at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 67#Jozef van Wissem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

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