Talk:José Sarria

C class?

I can not find C-Class on the project's quality scale. Can someone enlighten me? I have rated this article mid importance for LGBT because he was the first openly gay person to run for office. I was surprised to find City Commissioners from NYC knew of him and were pleased to be introduced to him when I was with Jose in NYC a few years back. C. Williams (talk) 11:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• C is a new class that was created a few days ago. Discussion on its creation found here. Not all of the project templates are set up to accept it yet, and LGBT studies apparently isn't. The LGBT studies project doesn't use the importance scale so I've removed that rating. Otto4711 (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks, I found this link very helpful. The BIO assessment list has not been updated yet so I was going around in circles trying to find some information on it. Much appreciated Otto. And wow, a DYK on Mama Jose. She will be happy to hear about that. C. Williams (talk) 14:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• Tell her I hope she likes the article. Otto4711 (talk) 15:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• Don't tell her Fiona was on DYK first! - House of Scandal (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

heading

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:José Sarria/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

This is a very interesting article about a fascinating figure. I learned quite a lot about the early LGBT movement, a subject I know little about. I found the article to fit most of the criteria for Good Articles: it is mostly well written, correctly formatted and verifiable. The sources seem to be reliable as far as I can tell, the article is stable and neutral, and the one image is correctly tagged. A few comments in regards to the prose:

• If you don't mind, I'm going to strike through your comments as I make the fixes. If that's a problem, go ahead and revert.

• Nope, that's fine. Just remember to leave the asterisks unstricken so the formatting does not turn wonky. :) María (habla conmigo) 16:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Lead

• Sarria co-founded the early homophile organization the League for Civil Education in 1960 or 1961: should be reworded, perhaps as "Sarria co-founded the League for Civil Education, an early homophile organization, in the early 1960s"? The uncertainly of "1960 or 1961" is confusing for the lead, I feel.
• If the above is changed, then: Also In 1961 he became the first openly gay candidate...
• In 1962 he helped to form the Tavern Guild to fight
• Sarria entertained at the Black Cat until its closure in 1963. What does "entertain" denote, exactly?
• It's a matter of personal choice, but do you prefer In 1964, with a comma, or In 1964 without? I see it both ways in the lead with various years, but consistency is important.
• Also in 1961 he became the first openly gay candidate for public office in the United States when he ran for the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. That he was the first openly gay candidate for public office in the US is stated here in the lead, but not in the body of the article. Keep in mind WP:LEAD.
• "Empress José I, The Widow Norton." Per WP:PUNC, logical punctuation rules state that unless the period/comma is part of the quotation, then it should go outside of the quotation marks: "Empress José I, The Widow Norton".

Early life

• Is Sarria Mexican American? It's never explicitly stated.
• Sarria attended the Emerson School for kindergarten and then, because he spoke Spanish: should be made more clear; he spoke only Spanish? Primarily Spanish?
• Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor: Attack on Pearl Harbor should probably be linked here.
• despite being too short to meet the Army's height requirement. Random question that may be of use here but is not too important in the long run, but is it known exactly how tall (short) he is?
• He seduced a major who was attached... Although it's stated in the lead, nowhere does it say in the article itself that Sarria is gay. So, by the time of his seduction, he already knew his sexual identity? Is there anything more to be said about this, how he came to the realization that he was gay, etc? We make a jump from learning he dressed as a girl when he was young to seducing a military major, which is somewhat confusing.

The Nightingale of Montgomery Street

• He and his sister...: this is the first mention outside of his parents. Her name? Are there others?
• Sarria and his sister both became smitten with a waiter: "smitten" is a great word, but I feel it may be a little too unencyclopedic? :)
• At around this time, Sarria was arrested in a sting operation at the St. Francis Hotel. I can guess the gist of the situation, but for what was he arrested, exactly? It's far too vague.
• ...entered a contest at an Oakland bar called Pearl's. This is also vague; was it a drag performance?
• "I thought, 'I might be able to make a living this way.'" This needs qualification and attribution; some kind of introductory phrase for the quote ("Looking back on the event, Sarria stated," or something) and, of course, a reference.
• "The Nightingale of Montgomery Street." Move period outside of quote.
• "There's nothing wrong with being gay -- the crime is getting caught," fix dash per WP:DASH
• Sarria formed the League for Civil Education... what was the purpose of this organization?

The Widow Norton

• "Pocket Lawyers." period fix.
• "already a queen," comma fix.
• "Her Royal Majesty, Empress of San Francisco, Jose I, The Widow Norton." period.
• Sarria and members of the Imperial Court appear along with other notable drag queens in the opening scenes of the movie To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar (1995). Great film, but this seems somewhat trivial; if it's necessary, it should be integrated into the preceding paragraph.
• "José Sarria Court." period.

I will put the article's nomination on hold for a week until these (mostly minor) issues are addressed. As a whole, the article is fairly broad in its coverage, but some more explanation would go a long way; don't assume that readers will know everything about drag queen performances, for example. :) A little more personal information regarding Sarria would be an asset to the article, as well, especially regarding his sexuality and/or personal life. If it's not available in the sources, then the brevity is of course unavoidable, but I thought I'd ask just in case. Thank you to the main contributors for an enlightening read! Let me know on my talk page if you have any questions. María (habla conmigo) 14:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply

Of what's remaining:

• Sarria entertained at the Black Cat until its closure in 1963. What does "entertain" denote, exactly?

• "Entertained" refers back to "performing" in an earlier sentence.
• I added Sarria entertained patrons with satirical versions of popular songs and operas. to help clarify.

• Is Sarria Mexican American? It's never explicitly stated.

• I think I remember seeing something about the ethnicity of his parents. I'll look through sources again.

• He seduced a major who was attached...

• I haven't found a great deal about his early life beyond what's there. I agree that it's a bit of a jarring transition. I have a source that talks about his studying singing that talks about his tenor voice so I could put in something like "as he grew up his voice deepened to a natural tenor" or something similar to give a sense of the time passage.
• I added He also studied singing, and as he matured his vocal range became high tenor. I don't much care for the phrasing but it provides something of a transition.

• He and his sister...

• My source doesn't mention his sister's name. I'll see if I can find it elsewhere. And I think "smitten" is encyclopedic enough and it's so perfectly descriptive.
• I merged the sentence about To Wong Foo to the preceding paragraph but if you think it's too trivial to include I don't mind losing it. I didn't write that sentence anyway. ;-)
• As for the punctuation issues, I strongly disagree with the MOS on that point. I think commas and periods outside of quotation marks look horrible and I don't find such placement to be at all logical. It's not the way that I was taught to write American English either from a thesis-writing or a journalism perspective. For a number of the noted instances the punctuation is properly placed regardless.
• I will dig a bit more to see if I can turn up any more personal information. He has a semi-autobiography out that I haven't read yet; I've ordered it from the library and I'm assuming it will be a strong source. Otto4711 (talk) 18:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, most of my concerns have been addressed and I approve of your additions. "Smitten" is fine with me and To Wong Foo doesn't stick out as much since it's been merged, so no problems there. As for the logical punctuation, trust me, I completely agree. It's unsightly and sloppy. The MOS minions, however, are quite picky about punctuation placement, and if this article were to be brought to FAC today, there are those who would oppose its promotion solely on those grounds. Because GA and FA are two completely different things, and it's truly a minor issue at best, I'm not going to push it; just don't say I didn't warn you. :)

One thing I noticed while reviewing but forgot to mention were a couple dashes for the page ranges in the citations that should be replaced with en dashes; again, very minor, but some folks make mountains out of molehills, etc. I believe this article is ready to be promoted now. Wonderful work, Otto, and congratulations on an illuminating article. I hope to see more of this kind at GAC sometime. María (habla conmigo) 12:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for a great GA experience! I wish there were more reviewers like you. Otto4711 (talk) 13:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The MOS minions, however, are quite picky about punctuation placement, and if this article were to be brought to FAC today, there are those who would oppose its promotion solely on those grounds.
I feel compelled to say this is the sort of thing that makes me a lot less enthusiastic about contributing to Wikipedia than I used to be. (The very idea that an expressive word like "smitten" might somehow be inappropriate is another example.) There are editors out there who seem to want to make Wikipedia as cookie-cutter and tedious as possible, and it's too exhausting to fight them. Languagehat (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Citation check

His mother Maria was born in Bogotá, in what was then known as Gran Colombia, to an upper class and politically active family. (Gorman p. 14) ... She worked as a maid for the Kopp family, owners of the Bavaria Brewery, until 1919. (Gorman p. 20–1) ... Julio was from a large and wealthy family in Nicaragua, the grandson of Spanish immigrants. (Gorman p. 25) Maria initially worked for the woman who sponsored her passage to the United States and then took a job as a maid with a family named Jost. Julio was the maitre d' at the Palace Hotel. (Gorman p. 27)

None of this text accords with the notion that "each of whom was from an upper class background (she from Colombia, he from Nicaragua)". Can someone please place here on talk the exact full text quoted from Gorman p. 14, p. 20, p. 25 and p 27 that establishes "upper class background"? It doesn't fit with the rest of the text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• My access to the physical book is gone because it was obtained through an interlibrary loan. The text does fit. His parents were upper class in their home countries. Upon leaving their home countries (she because of political upheaval; for Julio the source is silent on why he left) they took jobs as a maid and a maitre d', respectively. You should be able to review the text here. Otto4711 (talk) 12:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Some of the pages needed are omitted from the preview, so I didn't find convincing information; I did find an accounting of Sarria's own recollections, which could be biased. Perhaps, at minimum, anything sourced to Sarria's own recollection should be attributed as such (according to Sarria, his parents were from upper class backgrounds ...), unless this can be indepedently verified. It's just unusual that someone from an upperclass Colombian family would end up working as a maid, so this info is begging for a better source, or at least attribution to Sarria's own accounting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Her family was pretty much wiped out and she was a political refugee, a ward of the United States government. It doesn't seem unusual that a refugee from a war-torn country who spoke only Spanish would take any job she could get. Otto4711 (talk) 17:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• There isn't really specific text on p. 14 that says "upper class and politically active" in those words. It's a condensed restatement of the text across about three pages so the reference should be updated to reflect that. But the pages talk about the family owning a business and a coffee plantation, living in a house that took up an entire city block and the matriarch's political liberalism.
• "My mother got to Panama with directions to the home of a family called Kopp. He was the chairman of the big German beer company there....she went to work for the Kopps....My mother was the upstairs maid and took care of the children." (Gorman 20-1)
• "Now on the boat is where my mother met my father, Julio Sarria. He came from a large and very wealthy family, very well known....His grandparents came from Spain." (Gorman 25)
• "When she arrived in San Francisco, she went to the home of the woman who had sponsored her into the country. In return for her passage, my mother had to work for the woman for a year." (Gorman 26)
• Julio Sarria was the maitre d' of the Palace Hotel, and he was a bit of a dandy. He came from old money and considered himself a member of the higher class despite his service job. (Gorman 27)
• "When my mother was finally allowed to leave that first job, Mr. Maron found her a job with the Jost family." (Gorman 27)
• The above material in quotes is quotes from Sarria in the book; the rest is prose from the author. If the article needs to include a few "According to Sarria"s to be promoted, I'm fine with that. Please let me know. Otto4711 (talk) 17:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Can I help?

I hope you haven't given up on an FA for Sarria. I've seen his name so many times it's quite clear that he deserves an FA. If you're still interested, I'd like to pitch in a bit, copy editing, giving suggestions, etc. Let me know. --Moni3 (talk) 21:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• AFAIK, the sticking point is the licensing for the main photo in the infobox. I've emailed reps from the Courts several times but after initial expressed interest no one's gotten back to me about either confirming the license on the existing photo or offering another image without copyright issues. Otto4711 (talk) 22:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry, I am still not clear what it is that you want. We have full permission for the use of the photo. This photo of Jose has been released to the public. The Imperial Court nor Jose hold any rights to this photo of her. We use it freely for anytime anyone wants a photo of her. Still not clear how to clear this up. You asked for an email to be sent, but saying what? Sorry, I have been out of the state and very busy at work. My appologies on this dropping to the bottom of the pile. Real life gets in the way of volunteer work sometimes. Hate it when that happens.  :) Oh, any my computer crashed too. So lost all emails and addresses. Sigh, has not been a stellar month. C. Williams (talk) 04:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, that pesky real world and its attendant responsibilities. Sucks. If I understand the process correctly, there's something called OTRS that has to do with helping clear up this sort of thing. I've posted a message for an OTRS volunteer in hopes of getting step-by-step instructions on what needs to happen to ensure that all the legal niceties are fulfilled regarding the public domain status of the image. I'll let you know when he gets back to me. Otto4711 (talk) 14:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• Otto, have you received email permission from the photograph or copyright holder to use the photo? It has to be a pretty specific statement that they own the rights to the image and they're releasing to to Wikipedia. If so, forward it to permissions@wikipedia.org with a copy of the image attached, indicating which article it's for. Change the licensing on the image to GFDL and contact Elcobbola. Either he or someone who has access to permissions email will give it a ticket number and email you the number. Then they'll come by and tag the image with an OTRS ticket.
• I was perusing Gay by the Bay by Susan Stryker and in it was an oil portrait of Sarria in drag, owned by the San Francisco GLBT Historical Society. They may have other images as well. However, I suggest you be very persistent with them. I contacted them 3 times for Harvey Milk info and images and they did not respond. Call, cry, whatever it takes. --Moni3 (talk) 14:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• OK, here's the message I just got from the OTRS volunteer, User:Lucasbfr:

• Hi, the easiest way to do this is to have a spokesperson from the ICS e-mailing us at permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org explaining the situation. In clear, they need to state that the photographer (it would be nice to have his name btw, in order to give proper credits) and copyright owner gave the complete rights of the photography to the organization, and that they are entitled to release all these rights into the public domain, for all purposes. I don't think more proof would be needed, as long as the statement is credible and comes from a verifiable e-mail address (we obviously are very wary of gmail addresses ;). I am able to read and act upon the emails coming to this mailbox, so if they wish you can email me their email address so I can have a look.

• So Craig, if you are authorized to speak on behalf of the Courts, please email the above address and that should take care of this. Otherwise please pass along this information to a spokesperson. Otto4711 (talk) 17:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• I've always used the following language: The (agency) owns the copyright to the images found attached in this email. We grant permission to copy, distribute and/or modify these documents under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. with the name and contact information of the agency underneath the release. I've used this for various individuals as well as the Lesbian Herstory Archives, Friends of the Everglades, and the New York Public Library. --Moni3 (talk) 17:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

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Removal

I've removed material that repeated content that was already in the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:03, 18 July 2020 (UTC)